[HoosierDaddy]

Not sure how I feel overall about this as an entry in the Files. It was start and go at times, but mostly go go go. As a single read I enjoyed it but I don't want immediately put it at the top of the list like I would with Dead Beat, Small Favor, or Changes.

Pretty solid red-herring with Mab telling Harry to kill Molly if she died as it'd be best for everyone including him. Figured she was doneso at that point and we'd see Harry have to make that call (which he wouldn't, I think).

I've felt for a while, especially after reading Word of Jim, that Marcone is supposed to be the real anti-Dresden. The true mirror of what operating on the reverse instincts would be (but not as superpowered, until now that is). He has reasons to do what he does. A well crafted villain, as opposed to the monster of the week usual suspects that are just pure evil. Think if him and Nico get on the same page... which isn't a sure thing, but I think probable, we see endgame storyline.

Not sure how the Outsiders/Nemesis play into the new power-structure and where the arch is heading. I can't quite figure out who is playing who all the time (other than Dresden who is always being played). Who is pulling whose strings here? Do the Denarians have anything to gain with bringing in the Outsiders or is that as terrible an outcome for them as it is for the "good guys"? I want to say they have just as much to lose too, but I can't recall.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 06 October 2020 - 08:25 PM

[amphibian]

The Outsiders are apparently aiming to colonize existence, while the Denarians are somewhat continuing the rebellion against God.

I think the Denarians have an aim to use the Outsiders to damage existence enough to give them dominion over existence, while the Outsiders play the longer game of waiting for an invite to blast through everyone's plans.

[Slow Ben]

Not reading a single post cause I’m only 2/3 through, but I’ve been chuckling at this simple line for like 5 minutes.

“That twelfth guy, though. Maybe he was somebody’s nephew...”

[D'rek]

HoosierDaddy, on 06 October 2020 - 08:25 PM, said:

I've felt for a while, especially after reading Word of Jim, that Marcone is supposed to be the real anti-Dresden. The true mirror of what operating on the reverse instincts would be (but not as superpowered, until now that is). He has reasons to do what he does. A well crafted villain, as opposed to the monster of the week usual suspects that are just pure evil. Think if him and Nico get on the same page... which isn't a sure thing, but I think probable, we see endgame storyline.

With Hendricks and Murphy hit, Harry and Marcone are the only two characters from the first book still alive now, right? How fitting, then.

[Abyss]

Marcone getting a coin makes perfect sense, esp given his determination to play at the level of the other signatory powers.

That said it's not a development I love because my favorite part about Marcone was a mere human smart enough and assembling the resources to play at that level without magic.

I can live with it tho.

Fairly sure Namshiel and Marcone are opposed to Nico, and most if not all Denarians are opposed to the Outsiders.

[Slow Ben]

Abyss, on 07 October 2020 - 03:15 AM, said:

Marcone getting a coin makes perfect sense, esp given his determination to play at the level of the other signatory powers.

That said it's not a development I love because my favorite part about Marcone was a mere human smart enough and assembling the resources to play at that level without magic.

I can live with it tho.

Fairly sure Namshiel and Marcone are opposed to Nico, and most if not all Denarians are opposed to the Outsiders.

Yep. The best part about Marcone was he was just a human. But it makes sense that he wouldn’t be content with that.

Just finished. Read the last 40% in one go tonight. Solid entry. Not top tier, but middle to upper middle. I’m gonna let it marinate some.

One thing that I never get tired of is Harry’s humor. Especially his sarcastic/smartass internal dialogue quips. One day I’m going to do a reread and keep track of them all.

[pathos]

Just finished the book.

It was great. Need more Dresden already!

Murphy was bound to happen at some point unfortunately. I am glad they got a bit of time together. I think Harry's new project with the BFS is needed for him to keep him connected to his humanity with Murphy who was a big grounding factor being gone now.


Would love to learn more about why Ebeneezer hates the white court so much and more about Harry's mother. I assume that that will be addressed when the doom of the Blackstaff gets resolved in a future book?

The black court vampires were a surprise as I thought with mention of the genoskwa still being around it might appear as a counter to River shoulders at some point but that does mean that we will probably be sing the genoskwa intervene in the next Danerians book. Would love to see a bit more Ivy in that one as well as I feel she was teased a bit in this one.

Harry's conjuritis is also not resolved. It happening to younger wizards normally makes me think it may have something to do with becoming accustomed to new power or something along those lines perhaps?

The artefacts from the fault seemed a bit underwhelming to me so far. Great book, not the best but had me excited for the next one. Lets hope it doesnt take 4 years

[champ]

I was expecting the Genoskwa to turn up too, especially after Mavra made an apperance as she was teased to be about in the same book as the Genoskwa.

I wonder if he will turn up when River Shoulders decides to teach Harry.

[Vengeance]

Abyss, on 07 October 2020 - 03:15 AM, said:

Marcone getting a coin makes perfect sense, esp given his determination to play at the level of the other signatory powers.

That said it's not a development I love because my favorite part about Marcone was a mere human smart enough and assembling the resources to play at that level without magic.

I can live with it tho.

Fairly sure Namshiel and Marcone are opposed to Nico, and most if not all Denarians are opposed to the Outsiders.

I thought that it was significant at one point Harry is standing next to Butters and mentions that he and a knight of god are together. Then a half a chapter later he mentions that he and a knight of hell are standing together. I feel like that could be some foreshadowing of the 3 of them standing together against the Outsiders.

[D'rek]

pathos, on 07 October 2020 - 09:02 AM, said:

Harry's conjuritis is also not resolved. It happening to younger wizards normally makes me think it may have something to do with becoming accustomed to new power or something along those lines perhaps?

I still think that it'll be a matter of conjuritis is the magic chicken pox that Harry somehow missed getting as a kid, and he finally picked it up as an adult from Maggie, the explanation of that coming at some point in the future when Harry realizes that Maggie has magical talent.

[HoosierDaddy]

Speaking of conjuritis... the anvil. The Acme anvil.

I get that it was kind of humorous, and if truly a call back a good one at that.

But, let us also speak of moments of being literally forced back into the real world and losing suspension of disbelief. This book was rife with them.

Sue the T-Rex actually flowed. The battle of Chicen Itza flowed. Some of these... did not flow. This being the one that stood out the most to me.

[amphibian]

It's the Ready Player One stuffing of references into a story as a "fan service" thing. I put that in quotes because it's really servicing Butcher and the pop culture things he loves.

[D'rek]

Ya, like it or hate it I think that's basically a fixed part of probably any Jim Butcher work set in modern day. Can't take it out any more than you can take out the showtune references from Seth Macfarlane's work.

[polishgenius]

champ, on 06 October 2020 - 01:34 PM, said:

One part that interested me about that is when we learn about the wards at his castle, Dresden compares them to Demonreach and the OG Merlin's work. Obviously Namshiel had input here so who/what was an influence on Merlin...

Marcone didn't build the castle, he just had it moved from Britain. Obviously wards surviving the castle being taken apart and put back together is a bit of a handwave but it's also said he didn't scratch the surface of what was there - ie it wasn't Marcone who put them in. The implication isn't that it's like the OG Merlin's work but that it is the OG Merlin's work.
Which means that, knowing Butcher, Dresden most likely lives in Camelot now.

[D'rek]

champ, on 06 October 2020 - 01:34 PM, said:

what the hell are the stars and stones

Since so much of the big backgroundy lore stuff has been rooted in gaelic and english folklore, it would not surprise me at all if the "stones" tie into Stonehenge (and other henges).

[champ]

polishgenius, on 07 October 2020 - 06:54 PM, said:

champ, on 06 October 2020 - 01:34 PM, said:

One part that interested me about that is when we learn about the wards at his castle, Dresden compares them to Demonreach and the OG Merlin's work. Obviously Namshiel had input here so who/what was an influence on Merlin...

Marcone didn't build the castle, he just had it moved from Britain. Obviously wards surviving the castle being taken apart and put back together is a bit of a handwave but it's also said he didn't scratch the surface of what was there - ie it wasn't Marcone who put them in. The implication isn't that it's like the OG Merlin's work but that it is the OG Merlin's work.
Which means that, knowing Butcher, Dresden most likely lives in Camelot now.

Ah, good shout, I had forgotten that part about the castle. That makes it even cooler with the great theory, would have a nice ring to it too with Butcher.


I have debated lately when to start a full reread...

D, on 07 October 2020 - 07:04 PM, said:

champ, on 06 October 2020 - 01:34 PM, said:

what the hell are the stars and stones

Since so much of the big backgroundy lore stuff has been rooted in gaelic and english folklore, it would not surprise me at all if the "stones" tie into Stonehenge (and other henges).

Another nice theory, I had wondered if the stones meant that too. Got me thinking to Drakul and why he has a set of "stars and stones." Do all starborn get one? Or only ones that follow out their alloted role in life? What the hell does charging it do? You'd have to think it was Outsider related.


I was also wondering about the line that the apocalypse is a frame of mind (was it they said?) rather than an event... what would have to happen for that frame of mind to become reality? Two things come to mind, something religious involving Nicodemus or the Gates are breached which leads to global panic and destruction.


But Nicodemus, I think, his ultimate goal is fighting the Outsiders too in his own way.


And now I am back thinking about the book... we saw with Chicago, the supercharged air/atmosphere that made Harry super strong... do you think that was enough of a boost to Harry to see him through the series power level wise? As he will obviously be fighting again in such an atmosphere or is he going to need another big boost of power to succeed... especially after we saw One Eye, Titania etc throw down... I'm thinking he is going to need another level up or two...


Oh and one of my favourite lines (paraphrasing)...


Harry - We're outnumbered
Mab - Actually it's one Mab to zero, we're fine...

Mab was such a standout in this book!!

This post has been edited by champ: 07 October 2020 - 08:40 PM

[polishgenius]

They have an army.

We have a Mab.

[Abyss]

Seriously Mab stole almost every scene she was in.
And the byplay tween her and Harry was great.

[amphibian]

I am frustrated with the lack of interaction in this book with Mother Winter and Mother Summer. Not because I want the mysteries all revealed now, but because things like a Titan with the Eye of Balor would presumably need their input.

I know there's already many balls being juggled, yet it seems like two of the most powerful entities alive - one of whom is definitely a human (Mother Summer) - were ignored in a way that doesn't make sense given that Mab, Titania, Sarissa, Fix, Molly, and Dresden were all prepared to give their lives on the battlefield.

[D'rek]

amphibian, on 08 October 2020 - 10:37 PM, said:

I am frustrated with the lack of interaction in this book with Mother Winter and Mother Summer. Not because I want the mysteries all revealed now, but because things like a Titan with the Eye of Balor would presumably need their input.

I know there's already many balls being juggled, yet it seems like two of the most powerful entities alive - one of whom is definitely a human (Mother Summer) - were ignored in a way that doesn't make sense given that Mab, Titania, Sarissa, Fix, Molly, and Dresden were all prepared to give their lives on the battlefield.

Hmm, my impression of the Mothers the two times we've seen them prior was that it's not in their nature to get directly involved in... well, anything, really.