[Aranatha]

Fanderay, on 18 May 2020 - 09:02 PM, said:

Aranatha, on 18 May 2020 - 08:18 PM, said:

I understand not agreeing with a case, but this vote seems like an overreaction and a deliberate prop up of a case to divert from the Tennes case. Ending with the comment about Thyr mentioning Rikkter - completely side stepping the fact that Thyr VOTED for FANDERAY before he got lynched. That's worth a lot more scrutiny than a random comment - so talk about hypocritical. My vote on tennes stands.

The fuck? Why would I be analyzing Thyr's vote on me? No matter which alignment I am, I'd say it indicates I'm town. You'd have better luck just going up to people and just asking if they're town or scum.
I believe most people have just taken it as a WIFOM situation, if you know what that is. I think it was just flailing scum throwing out shit and hoping something stuck.

I would hope you'd be analyzing everything Thyr did - but that isn't even my point - my point is how do you differentiate between scum making random comments to throw us off, and actual scummy behavior? You need more than just following along a vote the way you did with this argument of the comment made by scum. I'm just asking you to actually make a case. If you don't have anything else, just say so.

[Aranatha]

Tennes, on 18 May 2020 - 09:10 PM, said:

Jalan and Rikkter first and then Kilava in a separate post because it will include quotes.

*Jalan*

There is almost nothing to look at here in therms of content. Half of Jalan's posts is just banter. But the votes are interesting:
* D1 vote is extremely safe one to put Okral at L-2.
* D2 is the second vote on Thyr.
* D3 is the first vote against Rikkter.

So despite contributing barely any messages, Jalan actually sticks their neck out with those D2 and D3 votes. I also bitched earlier about how Rikkter was getting zero scrutiny despite being an important albeit not very visible piece in the whole 'was Thyr D1 train derailed' kerfuffle, so someone finally coming for them is a good sign. Where is your promised elaboration, though, Jalan?

Jalan, on 16 May 2020 - 11:31 AM, said:

Rikkter, on 13 May 2020 - 12:48 AM, said:

Aranatha is 0 to 60 on this case (blocks of text, tl/dr style). I think the theory of a dumb as shit symp is worth a peek, but right now, Okral caught my eye the most. I never like it when players break the 4th wall and discount their own suspicious behavior in advance in an attempt to forestall suspicion. It is a self awareness that provides an anchor to the claim that they were just being helpful, sorry to seem scummy, nothing to see here. A few other players did this "durr sorry I am scummy" today, but right now, Okral stood out in the context of everything becoming srs biz.

Vote Okral

The first Okral vote. Also would not vote Thyr. I will get a bit more comprehensive when I can this weekend. But for now.

Vote Rikkter

Anyway, Jalan was one of the first people to put a spotlight on Thyr in post 84 (not quoting for readability). You could maybe claim this was distancing but then with the D2 vote on Thyr, that would be a lot of distancing that also backfired spectacularly. So Jalan reads fairly clean to me.

*Rikkter*

Rikkter definitely doesn't shy away from sticking their neck out. The difference from Jalan, that I only noticed on a closer look, is that Rikkter's game is based on a pattern. They show up with a new case, present their arguments against someone with no votes at the moment, and then ignore the rest of the thread. Rikkter cast the first vote on Okral, the first vote on Hanas, and the first vote on me. All these votes followed a specific reasoning, so can't really hold that against Rikkter. Okral case was decent enough for D1 and I almost followed their lead on Hanas on D2 myself. But after Rikkter made the first two cases, they vanished nearly completely, and regarding the third they posted walls upon walls of text and never entertained any discussion about anything else.

Get in, start a train, get out, rinse and repeat - Rikkter in a nutshell. The only deviations from this were a poke at Fanderay for their drive-by on Okral (186) and a reply to Gait which then Rikkter used to set up the Hanas case (307).

Playing along a pattern is suspicious because it indicates planning ahead. The only people who have the comfort to do that are scum. But then, it could be just a matter of play style. A bigger red flag is how Rikkter went from a coaster to an essayist the moment the tiniest bit of pressure was applied to them. Rikkter went nuclear as soon as someone voted on them which is telling.

Potentially scummy, but damn that would be a ballsy way to play a killer.

Yes, to be fair any kind of semblance of votes can get the most veteran player to hissy fit under the pressure. If you regard the rather inconsistent play of Rikkter, it more indicates that of a nervous town than scum IMO. The notion that scum has to do this or that is just plain erroneous, and makes you miss a lot of scumminess. What scum can't afford is to stick out, which is why I look so hard on anyone that just 'follows along' with vote trains without actually making a case - in many ways it's a hard way to look at the game, because town players does it a lot also, but if you actually ask people to make a case, you'll apply helpful pressure and get more indication of what role they have. THEN you look at their actions, what they're saying between the lines, by what they are doing. Essentially - are they playing to get information, or just to fit in?
However in a sense, the argument that scum can't 'play ballsy' is just stupid IMO. They HAVE to. These weird narratives that are established in some games are just weird to me, because most of them doesn't serve town at all, only scum.
There area lot of ways someone can show they're under pressure - the hard part is divining what it means.

As for Rikkter, he could very well be scum that can't handle a little pressure, but where's the actual scummy behavior? I find the entire train on him very interesting, with the right incentive a lynch on him could get us information - I just hope that it's just not town shooting ourselves in the foot so to speak.
Perhaps antithesis to this point I would want more time to figure out what's up with certain players. I would agree that putting pressure on low activity actors would be helpful to the game. What's the gist of the Ruse case again? Need to go back and look at it.

[Kalse]

Man, Kilava cracked me up with his two posts announcing the arrival of an epic case, one saying that at the end it's bad, then the most out of left field post I have seen in a while.

Still, I'm in there and if anything it must have taken quite some time to make, so I will answer:

1. A bunch of people deciding in the same game to signal each other by mispelling avatar names would require some sort of prior or off-thread coordination that I don't see is possible/probable, unless they are paired killers but then why signal? Because until today I never heard of that as a strategy.

2. I personally fucking suck with avatar name spelling. I honestly thought Thyrlann was spelled the way I was spelling it, I must have written a few Shelthata in there. I've been for two (game) days on Venesara's balls and when I have to confirm if I'm spelling it right I have to look for one of their, or Path-Shaper's, posts. You know how hard that is? very hard (hint: I since learned to go to page 5, in my 40 post per page setting).

[Kalse]

This one made me look because I went "the fuck?"

Kilava, on 19 May 2020 - 12:34 AM, said:

#132 - panic about skintick have a vote on thyr - messed up by quoting PS, who edits

Kalse, on 13 May 2020 - 07:34 AM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 13 May 2020 - 07:19 AM, said:

It is day 1. About 13 hours and a half remaining.

21 people left alive.

1 votes Thyrllan; Skintick
1 vote Tennes; Aranatha
3 votes Okral Lom; Rikkter, Skintick, Kalse
1 vote Skintick; Sheltatha Lore

Skintick has two votes there?

lol

[Kalse]

Gait, on 19 May 2020 - 04:07 AM, said:

Barghast, on 18 May 2020 - 11:04 PM, said:

Here's the interaction for all

Gait, on 18 May 2020 - 02:05 PM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 18 May 2020 - 10:39 AM, said:

Looking at this now...
Considering Thyr is scum...why at this point would he not simply jump onto a push against Rikkte here?... it would be dead easy and non suspicious to simply agree.
instead he makes an excuse for Rikkter's aggressiveness brushing it off? It wouldn't hurt him at all to have added to the argument against Rikkter if Rikkter is inno yet he seems to be defending them.

Seems like he was subtly is trying to disregard looking at Rikkter to me.

remove vote
Vote Rikkter


I assume all the symp shouting will come out at me shortly, but I am gonna keep calling it as I see it.

Jump onto Rikkter????

Venesara had a viable case at the time and Thyr seemed iffy about it but willing. Why didnt he jump there instead? Thyrs vote on Fandaray lacked any follow up whatsoever. Of ALL the players Thyr pointed fingers at, none actually had anything going except for Venesara and Thyr pointedly overlooked that.

Why would you now use this as reasoning to vote Rikkter? It's blatant support of Thyrs read.

I cant tell if this is calculated or actually just really bad symp play.

edit: the Shel Gait interaction

Here It is indeed. The issue I had here was that you assume Thyr specifically ignored a case on a particular individual rather than Thyr ignoring all the cases including Venesaras which was most viable at the time to land a vote on Fandaray.

If you are scum, why jump on a less viable argument (at that point there was no train on Rikkter) or dream up a new argument (Fandaray vote).

A vote at that point would have put Venesara at 4 votes to Thyrs 2.

Path-Shaper, on 14 May 2020 - 08:56 PM, said:

It is day 2. About 25 hours remaining.

19 people left alive. Aranatha, Barghast, Fanderay, Gait, Gamelon, Hanas, Jalan, Kalse, Kilava, Okaros, Osseric, Prazec Goul, Rikkter, Ruse, Sheltatha Lore, Skintick, Tennes, Thyr, Venesara.

1 vote Okaros; Sheltatha Lore
1 vote Prazec Goul; Tennes
3 votes Venesara; Kilava, Kalse, Okaros
2 votes Thyrllan; Skintick, Jalan


Players not voted; Aranatha, Barghast, Fanderay, Gait, Gamelon, Hanas, Osseric, Prazec Goul, Rikkter, Ruse, Thyr, Venesara.

At the time Thyr goes so far as to even say he'd jump on the Ven train but misreads the issue people had with Ven.

Thyrllan, on 14 May 2020 - 10:00 PM, said:

Venesara, on 14 May 2020 - 01:35 PM, said:

Barghast, on 13 May 2020 - 07:09 PM, said:

Then who do you find scummy?

Well, I had an eye on Merrid, which was dumb apparently.

I was thinking about your post from the 1st page, but I don't believe anybody else was concerned, so I'm not hanging on to that one much

Nobody really sticking out

You show up late. Say little of interest. Don't vote. Disappear.

I'd vote for you now if I hadn't done the same thing (except showing up late) lol!

I mean...maybe its me but why word it this way, overlook this in a series of other posts and then do this:

Thyrllan, on 14 May 2020 - 09:45 PM, said:

Fanderay, on 13 May 2020 - 01:10 PM, said:

Okral's last two posts are both pretty weird. I'll vote for him for now, but I'd like to see more thoughts from him. Sheltatha Lore and Aranatha had a bit of a spat, and I'll take a closer look at that later.Vote Okral Lom

Did Fanderay ever go back and look at this?

Thyrllan, on 14 May 2020 - 10:11 PM, said:

OK, lots to digest. I've gotta get back to e-work but that's my catchup and contribution. Tennes lost some of his scumminess when I finished the re-read. There were some questionable things I brought up, but I don't think Fanderay ever did his "re-read" so for nowVote Fanderay

After this vote Thyr disappears.

Rikkter and Aranatha start new trains as the Thyr train picks up speed but Aranatha joins the train later at L-2.
Kilava and Kalse leave the Ven train to lay a vote on Thyr but Okaros and Osseric stay there till EoD.

Up until that point the Ven train was the most viable detraction from a scum CF.

Why would Thyr not land a vote on Ven? It does not add up.

I saw this and thought to quote it, as it is the exact reason I of my vote now. Gait phrases it as if he came up to the same conclusion independently, so that reassures me.

[Kalse]

Prazec Goul, on 19 May 2020 - 02:37 AM, said:

Ok, finally caught up. Here are my thoughts.

STOP EDITING YOUR POSTS!!! JUST REPLY.

The case on Tennes: As annoying as his boner for me is, his play is IMO too in your face to be a killer. Also, I agree that his position on Thyr's train helps it to pick up speed when he could easily have derailed it.

The case on Rikkter: Initially in reading backwards I didn't see it, but his post about 3 scum is an odd assumption coupled with Thyr's lack of a case against him make this seem like a more solid case.

vote Rikkter

Why does the 3 scum left comment irk you so much? Unless P-S is straight out lying, that's my assumption too:

Path-Shaper, on 11 May 2020 - 04:12 PM, said:

The four killers arrived back at their digs. Too wired to sleep. Too pumped up to think about shutting their eyes they planned their next night.

Karen and Jayne poured over what they knew. They hated seeing people suffer. They'll solve this case come hell or high water.

Or you missed that post and thought it was a surprise?

[Path-Shaper]

It is day 3. About 3 hours 30 remaining. (Tuesday midday BST) Gives me a chance to post final hours. (Excuse any mistakes as I am trying to keep up manually).

17 people left alive. Aranatha, Gait, Gamelon, Hanas, Jalan, Kalse, Kilava, Okaros, Osseric, Prazec Goul, Rikkter, Ruse, Sheltatha Lore, Tennes, Venesara.

5 votes Rikkter; Jalan, Barghast Sheltatha Lore, Fanderay, Prazec Goul
1 vote Ruse; Tennes
3 votes Tennes; Rikkter, Gait, Aranatha
1 vote Venesara; Kalse

Players not voted; Gamelon, Hanas, Kilava, Okaros, Osseric, Ruse, Venesara.

[Kilava]

Yeah I had a good time with that and it certainly took long enough. Perhaps something worthwhile will come of it...one day...

I'm around for like a few minutes on le phone ... The most important thing said recently was Thyr not pushing Ven. The question was asked, why? I would vote there but I don't think we have numbers. Is the Rikkter vote our only hope?

remove vote

[Kilava]

Also PS is not counting my vote.

[Kilava]

Actually I'm sure it was lost among that wall of epicness too much to read.

[Kilava]

Actually I'm sure it was lost among that wall of epicness too much to read.

[Okaros]

Two things:

- People either didn’t read the OP or are being deliberately obtuse when it comes to numbers of scum - I suspect the latter.

- I think Gait makes a valid point. If we’re saying that Thyrrrrllllllannn was deflecting from Rikkter, which seems to form one half of the case against Rikkter, then why is the fact that they do the same kind of thing for Venesara, who was actually in trouble, being ignored?

[Path-Shaper]

Sorry may have missed it Kilava.

[Ruse]

Okaros, on 19 May 2020 - 08:21 AM, said:

Two things:

- People either didn’t read the OP or are being deliberately obtuse when it comes to numbers of scum - I suspect the latter.

- I think Gait makes a valid point. If we’re saying that Thyrrrrllllllannn was deflecting from Rikkter, which seems to form one half of the case against Rikkter, then why is the fact that they do the same kind of thing for Venesara, who was actually in trouble, being ignored?

From reading the thread, I think Rikkter's D3 play may have had some part in that. He supposedly got flustered and replied "with a barrage of quotes & and a flimsy case" to some pressure coming his way.

I disagree with that interpretation of the thread. I think making a case on someone (regardless of the case quality) is a pretty normal Mafia thing to do. Just because somebody has received a couple of votes does not make the fact that they made a case scummy.

The "Thyrllan deflecting things from Rikkter" read does not register either. The best way to deflect suspicion off Rikkter at that point (even though Rikkter didn't need the deflection) would have been to strengthen alternative lynch trains, e.g. a Venesara vote.

Overall, Thyrllan's post re Rikkter is suspicious but it is certainly not the most suspicious thing that should be investigated. I would say my highest priorities would be pressuring Prazec for his hammer on D2 (I think it might have been distancing) and more importantly continuing the inquiry into the Venesara situation.

I don't see a lynch on Venesara happening today, however, and because "a lynch a day keeps the doctor away," I am going to lay my vote down on Rikkter for now.

Vote Rikkter

Tennes and Barghast's concerns regarding my low-posting ways are valid. In fact, in other games I would be among those advocating for the low-poster witch hunt. However, life is life and I have been busy; I can't do much to help that. I hope to have more time to contribute this week.

[Ruse]

To clarify, I vote above because I am going to sleep and won't be around to change it later.

[Path-Shaper]

It is day 3. About 2 hours 20 remaining. (Tuesday midday BST) Gives me a chance to post final hours. (Excuse any mistakes as I am trying to keep up manually).

17 people left alive. Aranatha, Gait, Gamelon, Hanas, Jalan, Kalse, Kilava, Okaros, Osseric, Prazec Goul, Rikkter, Ruse, Sheltatha Lore, Tennes, Venesara.

6 votes Rikkter; Jalan, Barghast Sheltatha Lore, Fanderay, Prazec Goul, Ruse
1 vote Ruse; Tennes
3 votes Tennes; Rikkter, Gait, Aranatha
1 vote Venesara; Kalse

Players not voted; Gamelon, Hanas, Kilava, Okaros, Osseric, Venesara.

[Sheltatha Lore]

Kilava, on 19 May 2020 - 08:14 AM, said:

Is the Rikkter vote our only hope?

remove vote

no... lots of people to still need to vote and things can change quickly.

I for one could easily swap my vote for a low laying player like Hanas, Ruse or Prazec (or even you).

Maybe more so Prazec as they seem to be continuing on the same "drive by voting on the most likely train" and then disappearing vibe.

Tennes, I would vote for if it's necessary to get a Lynch.
But don't really see a point in pursuing a case that I know for a fact to be seriously flawed.

Although...The good thing about a Tennes Lynch would be that it would give us a lot of info on todays (and day 2) proceedings.
Probably even more more than a Rikkter lynch. Since I think Tennes has been slightly more active than him.

But lynching purely for info is not exactly the best way to go about it.

[Gait]

Fair enough.

Thats 6 votes on Rikkter and not enough time to build a train on Venesara IMO.



Remove Vote

Vote Rikkter

This would not be the CF I'd find most useful but I agree with a need to get it out the way. I think it confused alot of people and maybe we need to establish some clarity.

[Gait]

Sheltatha Lore, on 19 May 2020 - 08:42 AM, said:

Kilava, on 19 May 2020 - 08:14 AM, said:

Is the Rikkter vote our only hope?

remove vote

no... lots of people to still need to vote and things can change quickly.

I for one could easily swap my vote for a low laying player like Hanas, Ruse or Prazec (or even you).

Maybe more so Prazec as they seem to be continuing on the same "drive by voting on the most likely train" and then disappearing vibe.

Tennes, I would vote for if it's necessary to get a Lynch.
But don't really see a point in pursuing a case that I know for a fact to be seriously flawed.

Although...The good thing about a Tennes Lynch would be that it would give us a lot of info on todays (and day 2) proceedings.
Probably even more more than a Rikkter lynch. Since I think Tennes has been slightly more active than him.

But lynching purely for info is not exactly the best way to go about it.

Well thats a surprise. Why do you thinK a Tennes CF would be more useful?

I say this knowing it would be useful but interested to understand your reasoning since you have been against Rikkter most of today.

[Path-Shaper]

It is day 3. About 2 hours remaining. (Tuesday midday BST) Gives me a chance to post final hours. (Excuse any mistakes as I am trying to keep up manually).

17 people left alive. Aranatha, Gait, Gamelon, Hanas, Jalan, Kalse, Kilava, Okaros, Osseric, Prazec Goul, Rikkter, Ruse, Sheltatha Lore, Tennes, Venesara.

7 votes Rikkter; Jalan, Barghast Sheltatha Lore, Fanderay, Prazec Goul, Ruse, Gait
1 vote Ruse; Tennes
2 votes Tennes; Rikkter, Aranatha
1 vote Venesara; Kalse

Players not voted; Gamelon, Hanas, Kilava, Okaros, Osseric, Venesara.