[Tennes]

Gait, on 17 May 2020 - 07:26 PM, said:

Ok...Case made.

If we want to hear a rebuttal all we need to do is:

Vote Tennes

There won't be more rebutting than I posted in the above message. The logic behind that case is so self-contradictory that I don't believe more is necessary. I said earlier I want to read more on Rikkter, Jalan, and Kilava and I'll do that when I have more time tomorrow evening.

[Rikkter]

Tennes, on 17 May 2020 - 07:31 PM, said:

I don't have time to post much until tomorrow but this is some galaxy brain logic to think I was deflecting from Thyr all the time to then cast a vote that tipped the scale on them.

I voted Thyr on D2 when the votes were 4/4/2 between Ven, Thyr, and Hanas. If I were scum, I would need to be out of my mind to switch to Thyr at that point.

No, actually you wouldn't be out of your mind at all. There are probably at least 3 people who will show up as scum on a CF this game. Taking opportunities to distance is a hallmark of scum play. What better way to distance than to join early on to a lynch train on the first scum. You read the room correctly, that Thyr was careening toward a lynch despite all your efforts to derail and redirect suspicion. This was all made worse by the inability to SL to get another separate train up to speed, although the Hanas train was promising (something you noted when you did vote for Thyr).

Your behavior is a reasonable, cold calculation, and unfortunately you overdid the defense/derailment attempts for Thyr, making it abundantly apparent on a careful reread. And so quotable. I doubt you will be able to untie yourself from all your own words protecting Thyr, but I will be amused to watch you try.

[Gait]

Tennes, on 17 May 2020 - 07:31 PM, said:

I don't have time to post much until tomorrow but this is some galaxy brain logic to think I was deflecting from Thyr all the time to then cast a vote that tipped the scale on them.

I voted Thyr on D2 when the votes were 4/4/2 between Ven, Thyr, and Hanas. If I were scum, I would need to be out of my mind to switch to Thyr at that point.

See, that's the genius of it.

Say what you will, take that vote out the equation and no one looks more against the thyrllen train than you.

If you're scum, wild play like this will be the reason I'll be playing the next game.

[Rikkter]

Barghast, on 17 May 2020 - 07:25 PM, said:

Rikkter, on 17 May 2020 - 07:16 PM, said:

Tennes, on 15 May 2020 - 05:58 PM, said:

Decision time.

Like I said, Venesara case seemed solid to me but on another read they just feel too sloppy to be scum.

It's a toss up between Thyr and Hanas. Both are coasters, both feel scummy, both had a blunder of a post. Neither case feels stronger to me so I'm gonna go with a pragmatic vote. More people so far have commented on Thyr and I think their CF is more valuable than Hanas's.

Remove vote.

Vote Thyr.

AHHHHHH, there it is. The vote on Thyr from Tennes, middle of the road of course, with more caveats to down play this vote all the way, even offering up Hanas as the alternative, someone he has not spent too much time fingering up to this point. 5 votes on Thyr at this point is a risky proposition, but the weight of the thread is still fixated on Thyr's odd behavior, and if Tennes is going to claim they are innocent of being in cahoots, they need to make their presence on the lynch train early enough to look supportive not just capitulating a the last minute.

And you claim you didn't have the knowledge of this vote when you started on the case? Seems convenient enough

Believe what you like. I always put a lot of weight on Day 1 for my initial rereads, and I thus made that my priority. Reading Day 2 and Day 3 were going to be tasks of their own, to be compared to my day 1 impression once I made it. It is how I work.

[Tennes]

Rikkter, on 17 May 2020 - 07:40 PM, said:

Tennes, on 17 May 2020 - 07:31 PM, said:

I don't have time to post much until tomorrow but this is some galaxy brain logic to think I was deflecting from Thyr all the time to then cast a vote that tipped the scale on them.

I voted Thyr on D2 when the votes were 4/4/2 between Ven, Thyr, and Hanas. If I were scum, I would need to be out of my mind to switch to Thyr at that point.

No, actually you wouldn't be out of your mind at all. There are probably at least 3 people who will show up as scum on a CF this game. Taking opportunities to distance is a hallmark of scum play. What better way to distance than to join early on to a lynch train on the first scum. You read the room correctly, that Thyr was careening toward a lynch despite all your efforts to derail and redirect suspicion. This was all made worse by the inability to SL to get another separate train up to speed, although the Hanas train was promising (something you noted when you did vote for Thyr).

Your behavior is a reasonable, cold calculation, and unfortunately you overdid the defense/derailment attempts for Thyr, making it abundantly apparent on a careful reread. And so quotable. I doubt you will be able to untie yourself from all your own words protecting Thyr, but I will be amused to watch you try.

I already did. It took me two sentences to debunk this case. It's built on a fundamentally stupid assumption and I already showed that.

I wasn't supposed to be playing today and got tempted so I better close the Mafia tab now. See yous tomorrow.

[Rikkter]

Tennes, on 17 May 2020 - 07:46 PM, said:

Rikkter, on 17 May 2020 - 07:40 PM, said:

Tennes, on 17 May 2020 - 07:31 PM, said:

I don't have time to post much until tomorrow but this is some galaxy brain logic to think I was deflecting from Thyr all the time to then cast a vote that tipped the scale on them.

I voted Thyr on D2 when the votes were 4/4/2 between Ven, Thyr, and Hanas. If I were scum, I would need to be out of my mind to switch to Thyr at that point.

No, actually you wouldn't be out of your mind at all. There are probably at least 3 people who will show up as scum on a CF this game. Taking opportunities to distance is a hallmark of scum play. What better way to distance than to join early on to a lynch train on the first scum. You read the room correctly, that Thyr was careening toward a lynch despite all your efforts to derail and redirect suspicion. This was all made worse by the inability to SL to get another separate train up to speed, although the Hanas train was promising (something you noted when you did vote for Thyr).

Your behavior is a reasonable, cold calculation, and unfortunately you overdid the defense/derailment attempts for Thyr, making it abundantly apparent on a careful reread. And so quotable. I doubt you will be able to untie yourself from all your own words protecting Thyr, but I will be amused to watch you try.

I already did. It took me two sentences to debunk this case. It's built on a fundamentally stupid assumption and I already showed that.

I wasn't supposed to be playing today and got tempted so I better close the Mafia tab now. See yous tomorrow.

Lol. Sorry dude. You buried yourself. and SL didn't help.

[Barghast]

Rikkter, on 17 May 2020 - 07:42 PM, said:

Barghast, on 17 May 2020 - 07:25 PM, said:

Rikkter, on 17 May 2020 - 07:16 PM, said:

Tennes, on 15 May 2020 - 05:58 PM, said:

Decision time.

Like I said, Venesara case seemed solid to me but on another read they just feel too sloppy to be scum.

It's a toss up between Thyr and Hanas. Both are coasters, both feel scummy, both had a blunder of a post. Neither case feels stronger to me so I'm gonna go with a pragmatic vote. More people so far have commented on Thyr and I think their CF is more valuable than Hanas's.

Remove vote.

Vote Thyr.

AHHHHHH, there it is. The vote on Thyr from Tennes, middle of the road of course, with more caveats to down play this vote all the way, even offering up Hanas as the alternative, someone he has not spent too much time fingering up to this point. 5 votes on Thyr at this point is a risky proposition, but the weight of the thread is still fixated on Thyr's odd behavior, and if Tennes is going to claim they are innocent of being in cahoots, they need to make their presence on the lynch train early enough to look supportive not just capitulating a the last minute.

And you claim you didn't have the knowledge of this vote when you started on the case? Seems convenient enough

Believe what you like. I always put a lot of weight on Day 1 for my initial rereads, and I thus made that my priority. Reading Day 2 and Day 3 were going to be tasks of their own, to be compared to my day 1 impression once I made it. It is how I work.

This isn't just a reread tho, you came out of nowhere with a complete D1 case, caliming little knowledge of Tennes' play onwards from there, and miraculously enough reading on wall after wall of quotes not a sliver of doubt has swayed you and you became more and more adamant

I wish my rereads had such perfect forms of cases complete with a vote at their beginning

I'm not necessarily downplaying your case in it's quality, nor defending Tennes, but find your behaviour scummy af rn

vote Rikkter

[Barghast]

What's your stance now Kalse?

[Sheltatha Lore]

Kalse, on 17 May 2020 - 06:03 PM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 17 May 2020 - 01:47 PM, said:

<snip>
Im not sure looking at day one stuff is going to get too much info, on day two Skintick came out immediately and went straight for Thyrllan again.
<snip>

lol, says the one lecturing me about doing a full re-read

why would you remove everything that gives that sentence context?

[Sheltatha Lore]

Kalse, on 17 May 2020 - 06:04 PM, said:

Joking aside,... [snip]

oh..."joking" are we...

ok. I can dig it.

[Sheltatha Lore]

Barghast, on 17 May 2020 - 08:05 PM, said:

Rikkter, on 17 May 2020 - 07:42 PM, said:

Barghast, on 17 May 2020 - 07:25 PM, said:

Rikkter, on 17 May 2020 - 07:16 PM, said:

Tennes, on 15 May 2020 - 05:58 PM, said:

Decision time.

Like I said, Venesara case seemed solid to me but on another read they just feel too sloppy to be scum.

It's a toss up between Thyr and Hanas. Both are coasters, both feel scummy, both had a blunder of a post. Neither case feels stronger to me so I'm gonna go with a pragmatic vote. More people so far have commented on Thyr and I think their CF is more valuable than Hanas's.

Remove vote.

Vote Thyr.

AHHHHHH, there it is. The vote on Thyr from Tennes, middle of the road of course, with more caveats to down play this vote all the way, even offering up Hanas as the alternative, someone he has not spent too much time fingering up to this point. 5 votes on Thyr at this point is a risky proposition, but the weight of the thread is still fixated on Thyr's odd behavior, and if Tennes is going to claim they are innocent of being in cahoots, they need to make their presence on the lynch train early enough to look supportive not just capitulating a the last minute.

And you claim you didn't have the knowledge of this vote when you started on the case? Seems convenient enough

Believe what you like. I always put a lot of weight on Day 1 for my initial rereads, and I thus made that my priority. Reading Day 2 and Day 3 were going to be tasks of their own, to be compared to my day 1 impression once I made it. It is how I work.

This isn't just a reread tho, you came out of nowhere with a complete D1 case, caliming little knowledge of Tennes' play onwards from there, and miraculously enough reading on wall after wall of quotes not a sliver of doubt has swayed you and you became more and more adamant

I wish my rereads had such perfect forms of cases complete with a vote at their beginning

I'm not necessarily downplaying your case in it's quality, nor defending Tennes, but find your behaviour scummy af rn

vote Rikkter

what's going on here?


seems I have lots to catch up on, didn't expect activity this late... thought the weekend was a dead rubber.

[Sheltatha Lore]

Kalse, on 17 May 2020 - 06:04 PM, said:

Joking aside, it's a quiet week-end, and we have time. There is something I'm not sure I get so I want to put it here for discussion.

When Thyrllan came to do his catch-up-posting, this was the vote situation:

Path-Shaper, on 14 May 2020 - 08:56 PM, said:

It is day 2. About 25 hours remaining.

19 people left alive. Aranatha, Barghast, Fanderay, Gait, Gamelon, Hanas, Jalan, Kalse, Kilava, Okaros, Osseric, Prazec Goul, Rikkter, Ruse, Sheltatha Lore, Skintick, Tennes, Thyr, Venesara.

1 vote Okaros; Sheltatha Lore
1 vote Prazec Goul; Tennes
3 votes Venesara; Kilava, Kalse, Okaros
2 votes Thyrllan; Skintick, Jalan


Players not voted; Aranatha, Barghast, Fanderay, Gait, Gamelon, Hanas, Osseric, Prazec Goul, Rikkter, Ruse, Thyr, Venesara.

and this is how he ended it:

Thyrllan, on 14 May 2020 - 10:11 PM, said:

OK, lots to digest. I've gotta get back to e-work but that's my catchup and contribution.

Tennes lost some of his scumminess when I finished the re-read. There were some questionable things I brought up, but I don't think Fanderay ever did his "re-read" so for now

Vote Fanderay

A lame-ass case and a vote for someone who had no vote until now. Now, we know he was not following his heart in voting on whom he thought was scum, so it was either:

1. He didn't realise how much the noose was tightening on him, even though he's been talked about since middle of day 1 and had already two votes on him on day 2
2. He know he may be f--ed and wanted to distance himself from Fanderay.

Both are quite, I don't know how to say, simplistic explanations? Still, with a lame case like this, why not just say something similar about Okaros, or add to Venesara saying he agrees?

What I am missing?

Unfortunately... this kind of thing doesn't really provide any tangible info. its always WIFOM.
on the one had he could have been distancing, but on the other he could have been trying to actually look involved and just picked an easy target, as he was only slightly being pressured to get involved at the time with two votes I like to think it's the later.
But again... its not really something I want to try and wrack my Brian over.

What DOES interest me however... knowing now that he is scum now is.. why did he not pile onto the already established Venesera train?

Thats Something more relevant consider IMHO. Would have been much easier to simply agree with a Venesera case tipping the scale in that direction.

meh

[Path-Shaper]

It is day 3. About 38 hours remaining. (Tuesday midday BST) Gives me a chance to post final hours.

17 people left alive. Aranatha, Barghast, Fanderay, Gait, Gamelon, Hanas, Jalan, Kalse, Kilava, Okaros, Osseric, Prazec Goul, Rikkter, Ruse, Sheltatha Lore, Tennes, Venesara.

1 vote Hanas; Sheltatha Lore
1 vote Sheltatha Lore; Aranatha
2 votes Rikkter; Jalan, Tennes
1 vote Ruse; Tennes
2 votes Tennes; Rikkter, Gait



Players not voted; Fanderay, Gamelon, Hanas, Kalse, Kilava, Okaros, Osseric, Prazec Goul, Ruse, Venesara.

This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 17 May 2020 - 09:45 PM

[Sheltatha Lore]

im just going to comment in blue. as there are a few things that need to be clarified.

Rikkter, on 17 May 2020 - 06:17 PM, said:

Full disclosure before I start the case below:
1) I have not fully read up on the past couple days worth of material, though I have kept track enough to know Thyr was scum and Skintick was RI.
2) I just signed on and noticed I have a vote train building me. You probably should have made this number one, would explain your "panic stations" better.
3) I am doing a day 1 case based on Thyr being scum. That is the primary focus of the case below. Let's begin. yes, Lets

The first thing I noticed was that SL is dancing with Thyr early on and acting completely like a symp and getting attention from Thyr with a joke vote (safe this early in day 1). SL does not leave her vote there long.

Wasn't a joke vote. Hence why I went back to them later. But ok..fair enough.

Sheltatha Lore, on 11 May 2020 - 11:04 PM, said:

Thyrllan, on 11 May 2020 - 10:27 PM, said:

Hello! I have arrived! Not too early and not too late! I guess that makes me perfectly average which is what many of my teachers called me back in the day.

Vote ThyrllanFor being "perfectly average"...

Thyr does acknowledge the interaction, noting that SL has something "naughty" hiding under his rock, in stark contrast to what is said about Prazec, which is more of a benign dragon secks quip.

Thyrllan, on 11 May 2020 - 11:47 PM, said:

Prazec looks like he's really getting it on with that rock. Sheltatha looks like he's hiding something naughty under his rock.

For vote count reference, Skin jumps on Thyr too (and notably is set up as a symp figure further into day 1). And it should be noted at this point that SL spends a lot of time talking about symps, as we will see.

Yea in retospect I wouldn't be surprised at him thinking I might be his symp...

Skintick, on 12 May 2020 - 12:43 AM, said:

Thyrllan, on 11 May 2020 - 11:47 PM, said:

Prazec looks like he's really getting it on with that rock. Sheltatha looks like he's hiding something naughty under his rock.

Shelly is a girl. You, sir/ma'am/warren-thing are an imposter! Vote Thyrllan

Here is SL jumping on Kalse for poor symp logic and emphasizing how to deal with symps, even throwing a vote on Kalse.

Sheltatha Lore, on 12 May 2020 - 08:15 AM, said:

Kalse, on 12 May 2020 - 05:47 AM, said:

Okral Lom, on 12 May 2020 - 03:54 AM, said:

Gait, on 12 May 2020 - 02:16 AM, said:

Sometimes being the bear minimum is enough. (sorry,not sorry)

No matter what happens, you've already won.

vote GaltThat joke is not good enough, revealing the obvious symp-signaling

remove voteVote KalseVoting the symp for suspected "symp-signaling" would be pointless. If he is symping you should be voting for the person he is symping... not the symp.Rookie mistake?...rusty?...or projecting?

But, SL fucks up his jab and has to remove that vote.

Don't know how this is relevant other than to make your post FUCKING LONG...yes I confused the entire situation. this has been covered.

Sheltatha Lore, on 12 May 2020 - 08:24 AM, said:

Merrid, on 12 May 2020 - 08:18 AM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 12 May 2020 - 08:15 AM, said:

Kalse, on 12 May 2020 - 05:47 AM, said:

Okral Lom, on 12 May 2020 - 03:54 AM, said:

Gait, on 12 May 2020 - 02:16 AM, said:

Sometimes being the bear minimum is enough. (sorry,not sorry)

No matter what happens, you've already won.

vote GaltThat joke is not good enough, revealing the obvious symp-signaling

remove voteVote KalseVoting the symp for suspected "symp-signaling" would be pointless. If he is symping you should be voting for the person he is symping... not the symp.Rookie mistake?...rusty?...or projecting?

Erm, but they did vote for the person 'being signalled.'

oops, I read that interaction wrong.remove vote

This one quote befuddles me a little, as to why SL would return a vote to Thyr. Not sure what to do with this.

Its simple... don't get all befuddled... I actually didn't like how thyrs opening post read when I made my first vote on him, and didn't see a reason to not go back and apply pressure again.
What can I say... im THAT GOOD. (some call it luck)

Sheltatha Lore, on 12 May 2020 - 08:29 AM, said:

Ill stick my vote back toVote Thyrllanhis opening post still seemed a bit "trying very hard to be normal" to me.

To be continued...

Edit- said commenting in red but actually did it in blue. Red hurt my eyes. ouchie...

This post has been edited by Sheltatha Lore: 17 May 2020 - 09:38 PM

[Gait]

Sheltatha...why are you defending Tennes?

Is this not the type of thing they should be doing?

[Sheltatha Lore]

Rikkter, on 17 May 2020 - 06:20 PM, said:

Continued...

Now here is my actual focus for this case. Introduction to SL (my suspected symp) was necessary to spot this guy. Tennes carries on the symp confusion SL has spread. Tennes strangely first votes for Skin with the line "let's see if this sticks" line and then goes in great detail much later with a remove vote? Seems a little cagey and weird behavior.

[snip]

oh dear... if you are predicating this case on me being a symp..then you've wasted your time im afraid.

BUT....lets see... I've been "quietly" keeping my eye on Tennes, cause for the most part they speak straight and make sense. But there are a few people I KNOW play scum precisely like this.
But thats META and illegal...can't be use it here.
Luckily I have no clue who is playing which is fun for me.

[Sheltatha Lore]

Gait, on 17 May 2020 - 09:42 PM, said:

Sheltatha...why are you defending Tennes?

Is this not the type of thing they should be doing?

am I defending tennes?

all i've done is clear up MY part in these accusations as they are not entirely accurate to me.

[Path-Shaper]

I have been lenient on mod kill timings because of the rustiness of the forum but start of day 3 will see the hammer fall for the likes of Gamelon. I have just messaged their alt and ego. Thanks.

Tattersail.

[Sheltatha Lore]

Gait, on 17 May 2020 - 09:42 PM, said:

Sheltatha...why are you defending Tennes?

Is this not the type of thing they should be doing?

Where do you see me defending Tennes?

sorry im actually gonna need to push you on this as I find the comment a bit straw-mannish?

[Sheltatha Lore]

Path-Shaper, on 17 May 2020 - 09:47 PM, said:

I have been lenient on mod kill timings because of the rustiness of the forum but start of day 3 will see the hammer fall for the likes of Gamelon. I have just messaged their alt and ego. Thanks.

Tattersail.

dare I say there are a few other that should be close. Hanas being one..just saying