[Obdigore]

Mezla PigDog, on 16 November 2021 - 08:28 PM, said:

My age range has been approved for booster vaccines in the UK and allegedly they are going the link the vaccine passport thing to whether you have had all eligible vaccines. So I'm in a bind. I believe in vaccines so happy to have it but I categorically don't believe in getting a third shot before most of the world hasn't had its first shot. So hopefully as I don't do a lot anyway maybe I can conscientiously object and not be seriously hampered by it... It's especially annoying since covid has been through my house and didn't infect me - can't I get some kind of superwoman covid pass to see me through the next few months? Don't they know how special as well as how morally incorruptible I am?

Do you think the UK is going to ship that booster you didn't get to some third world country? I mean realistically?

How does you not getting your booster help anyone, anywhere?

[Mezla PigDog]

No of course not. Unless millions(?) join me any 'stand' I take will be utterly futile. Doesn't necessarily put me on the wrong side of morality though.

[amphibian]

Mezla, I feel the same way and am in the same pickle.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Obdigore, on 17 November 2021 - 12:19 AM, said:

Mezla PigDog, on 16 November 2021 - 08:28 PM, said:

My age range has been approved for booster vaccines in the UK and allegedly they are going the link the vaccine passport thing to whether you have had all eligible vaccines. So I'm in a bind. I believe in vaccines so happy to have it but I categorically don't believe in getting a third shot before most of the world hasn't had its first shot. So hopefully as I don't do a lot anyway maybe I can conscientiously object and not be seriously hampered by it... It's especially annoying since covid has been through my house and didn't infect me - can't I get some kind of superwoman covid pass to see me through the next few months? Don't they know how special as well as how morally incorruptible I am?

Do you think the UK is going to ship that booster you didn't get to some third world country? I mean realistically?

How does you not getting your booster help anyone, anywhere?

I think that's a little akin to saying doing any household recycling is pointless because large corporations still use fossil fuels.

It isn't always about direct impact so much as feeling comfortable with your answer to a moral quandary. It isn't offered to be my age group but if it was, my feelings are much the same.

[Macros]

I was presented with the problem this lunch time.

with the added gravy that it was Pfizer so once drawn from cold storage its life span is seriously limited. People invited (rightfully or wrongfully) don't show and the vaccine goes down the pan. I was close enough t go get it when called..... So I did, insert phone signal joke here.

I don't agree with the booster shot whilst the rest of the world is burning, but they're rolling it out, and this particular jab was going to be wasted if not used. A lot of countries don't have the storage and distribution facilities for the Pfizer AFAIK, but we should be shipping every damn dose that is easily transported and storable round the world to who ever needs it. Hypocrisy drips from my words and I know it, but I was offered the jab, so took it, my morals be damned alas

[Obdigore]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 17 November 2021 - 01:58 PM, said:

Obdigore, on 17 November 2021 - 12:19 AM, said:

Mezla PigDog, on 16 November 2021 - 08:28 PM, said:

My age range has been approved for booster vaccines in the UK and allegedly they are going the link the vaccine passport thing to whether you have had all eligible vaccines. So I'm in a bind. I believe in vaccines so happy to have it but I categorically don't believe in getting a third shot before most of the world hasn't had its first shot. So hopefully as I don't do a lot anyway maybe I can conscientiously object and not be seriously hampered by it... It's especially annoying since covid has been through my house and didn't infect me - can't I get some kind of superwoman covid pass to see me through the next few months? Don't they know how special as well as how morally incorruptible I am?

Do you think the UK is going to ship that booster you didn't get to some third world country? I mean realistically?

How does you not getting your booster help anyone, anywhere?

I think that's a little akin to saying doing any household recycling is pointless because large corporations still use fossil fuels.

It isn't always about direct impact so much as feeling comfortable with your answer to a moral quandary. It isn't offered to be my age group but if it was, my feelings are much the same.

Absolutely different, because, as noted, you not taking that booster does nothing but wastes the booster and possibly gets you covid, or a more severe case of covid, with no upside.

You recycling, or walking instead of driving, or many other small things that an individual can do, does create a change, regardless of how small you feel it is. There is an upside.

These things are not the same.

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 17 November 2021 - 02:46 PM

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

In fairness I hadn't thought about the potential waste of the booster dose, which is a fair point.

[Gorefest]

This would only be a relevant discussion if the original two shots had proven sufficient for long term immunity. We have learned since that this is not the case and that, like seasonal flu vaccines, immunity wanes after about 5-6 months. So by not taking your second booster you are becoming a potential victim and transmitter again, similar to an extent to an unvaccinated person. So who are you really helping by not revaccinating yourself? That discussion is based on outdated information.

[Mezla PigDog]

The 2 doses give me some level of immunity for an as yet unspecified length of time. They have data to show it wanes after 6 months but they haven't proven it goes back down to pre-vaccine levels. So as I've been given an advantage other fellow humans have not then I would prefer to defer my additional booster advantage while the rest of the species catches up. Even if I means I have to social distance for longer and the UK economy is depressed further. Boris shouldn't be encouraging me to go to the office or pub when I don't need to.

If the UK ends up having too many RNA vaccines then they can reduce their future orders and put that capital into Covax to benefit other nations. Or send the RNA vaccines to other countries who can swap their refrigerated vaccines into countries with less infrastructure. If nobody makes a stand then the rich nations just keep soaking up vaccine resource and not sharing while people die in poor countries who are already crippled by the shit we've done to them - climate change, colonialism, unfair debts having pillaged their natural resources. Western governments are counting on their citizens to choose saving themselves and finding it too hard to wear a mask and in return the government gets to look strong in a national context. It is a political decision as well as a health one but nobody will admit to the politics.

Booster shots going to waste is a similar argument to focussing on airline industry job losses if governments hiked up flight taxes to pay for the climate destruction caused by frequent flyers. Undisputed short term loss but for global long term gain as you get a reset. If I was in the developing world I think I would happily watch a freezer full of UK Pfizer booster vaccines explode if it meant my loved ones got vaccinated sooner. Plus as a molecular biologist I'm pretty sure the deep freeze shelf life of RNA vaccines will be way longer than proven so far. So I would remind people that you are basing hypotheses on what you think are solid facts but are actually still works in progress. If your hypothesis coincides with the outcome that is most convenient for you then I would have a little look at your motives for going all in on it.

I have sympathy for people older than me getting boosters. They are more likely to die. The 40-49 bracket....I'd rather take a chance and make a point to the government that global co-operation is my preferred option. I seem to be in a minority of people in the UK still wearing a face mask indoors so altruism is certainly dead on arrival here.

I can totally see myself being a hypocrite and taking it if my peers all around me do. But it makes me sick to my stomach and just proves humanity is a lost cause.

[Mezla PigDog]

Gorefest, on 17 November 2021 - 06:17 PM, said:

This would only be a relevant discussion if the original two shots had proven sufficient for long term immunity. We have learned since that this is not the case and that, like seasonal flu vaccines, immunity wanes after about 5-6 months. So by not taking your second booster you are becoming a potential victim and transmitter again, similar to an extent to an unvaccinated person. So who are you really helping by not revaccinating yourself? That discussion is based on outdated information.

Flu vaccine immunity doesn't wane. The strains shift seasonally so last years vaccine is usually not effective for this years. Immunity to the strain the vaccine was for remains but antigenic drift means that strain is no longer the dominant one circulating. You're not comparing immunology apples with apples when you compare coronavirus and influenza.

[Gorefest]

I stand corrected, you are absolutely right. The original point still stands though, that Covid immunity to the current vaccines does seem to wane instead of it being caused by antigenic drift. So reboostering is still required, just as much as vaccinating others worldwide is. But as far as I am aware, there currently aren't any vaccine shortages, so it isn't an either/or situation. By not taking a booster you aren't in any way 'enabling' the worldwide imbalance in uptake. There are far more complicated and multifaceted reasons for these discrepancies than simply the rich 'west' buying up all the stocks. Not saying it isn't a factor, but it definitely isn't solved or aided by not taking boosters locally.

[Malankazooie]

The violent protests in Europe over reinstated restrictions look crazy. Is it that bad? Or is the media playing it up?

[Macros]

Hard to know.

I'd say we would need our international members to chime in with what they're seeing, because bad news sells and it's easy to under or over play anything with a few videos clips

[Morgoth]

none here at least.

[Tiste Simeon]

I think it's mainly Austria because they're implementing another lockdown and are on the cusp of making the vaccine mandatory for everyone which has ruffled some feathers to say the least (and even me, being very much Pro-vax has some concerns about such a measure)

As to whether it's as "bad" as the news says I can't say. Dag lives there and I know she isn't so active on the forum any more but I'll reach out to her and check in.

This post has been edited by Tiste Simeon: 22 November 2021 - 07:26 PM

[Grief]

Would say Brussels got pretty bad yesterday but hopefully calms down.

The vaccination rate is significantly lower in Brussels than the rest of the country. No surprises we are getting stricter anti-covid measures again. No surprises either that the same people who have basically caused this problem by resisting the vaccine also tend to be resistant to stricter anti-covid measures. And of course the people who have been vaccinated in hopes of evading further lockdowns also have plenty of cause to be unhappy.

It is frustrating all around really.

[QuickTidal]

Hey Macros, how is your wife's family faring in SA with this new variant there they are talking about blowing past vaccines?

[Macros]

to be quiet brief - Fuck knows

longer version
the attitude in SA on a lot of fronts is abysmal, coupled with the fact that its basically a junked economy, on paper SA is third world, they can't afford another massive lockdown at all, tourism plays a huge part for a lot of peoples incomes.
One sister has just had a wain so she's working from home which is a minor blessing, the other sister.... well see above attitude, she has had covid and gave zero fucks when she did, so this changes nothing beyond a rant against the travel sanctions.

Biggest concern on our front is the folks were aiming to travel in Jan to see the new baby, the next week or two will really tell a tale on those plans. We were invited to a wedding in Feb, were on the very likely no side anyway financially and the amount of leave that it would use up (if we're going that far we're taking 3 weeks out of it).

I just wonder at what stage do people finally understand that mass transmission allows all these mutations to occur?
or have we blown completely past that now and we need to truly biblical death toll to hit before people understand?

Am I being too bleak? Do we maybe have to try and carry on with life and just live with the sword of Damocles hanging over our heads? At some stage something has to give, how the recession hasn't hit yet I genuinely don't know
~shrug~ I have my days where I just want to scream at the air and say fuck this shit, then I realise I'm being a dick and I'm incredibly lucky to be going through this in a western democracy with free health care

[QuickTidal]

Macros, on 26 November 2021 - 05:23 PM, said:

to be quiet brief - Fuck knows

longer version
the attitude in SA on a lot of fronts is abysmal, coupled with the fact that its basically a junked economy, on paper SA is third world, they can't afford another massive lockdown at all, tourism plays a huge part for a lot of peoples incomes.
One sister has just had a wain so she's working from home which is a minor blessing, the other sister.... well see above attitude, she has had covid and gave zero fucks when she did, so this changes nothing beyond a rant against the travel sanctions.

Biggest concern on our front is the folks were aiming to travel in Jan to see the new baby, the next week or two will really tell a tale on those plans. We were invited to a wedding in Feb, were on the very likely no side anyway financially and the amount of leave that it would use up (if we're going that far we're taking 3 weeks out of it).

I just wonder at what stage do people finally understand that mass transmission allows all these mutations to occur?
or have we blown completely past that now and we need to truly biblical death toll to hit before people understand?

Am I being too bleak? Do we maybe have to try and carry on with life and just live with the sword of Damocles hanging over our heads? At some stage something has to give, how the recession hasn't hit yet I genuinely don't know
~shrug~ I have my days where I just want to scream at the air and say fuck this shit, then I realise I'm being a dick and I'm incredibly lucky to be going through this in a western democracy with free health care

That sounds like a bit of a shitshow to deal with. Hopefully you both are managing okay considering.

[Macros]

We're fine, Nuala is good at compartmentalising things they we can't have any influence or sway in (much better than me in some respects).
regards covid itself, well morally right or wrong we're both fully vaccinated with Astra and just got our boosters this month (wife Moderna, me Pfizer). Mentally I think I'm in the same place as a lot, I don't think it will kill me (I know that's a wrong headed assumption but the brain gonna brain) but I don't want to kill someone else with it. Do I miss a bar with a live band? fuck yes a lot, but we've survived without it fairly well, like I said living in a western democracy with free health care and a surprisingly robust response financially we had it easy. Hell we're out in the country, lock down on a farm isn't the same as being stuck in a flat 30 floors up in London.
Selfishly I just want the whole thing to fuck off so I can live my life.

Then someone I follow on twitter will or retweet a fully idiotic post and I realise how many fuckwits and bastards there are in the world (latest one was a guy who dumped his GF for getting the vaccine, hoooo boy was that thread an eye opener for how fucked up America is. You know unvaccinated sperm will be worth more than gold soon?)

I don't know, animals are selfish at their core, we're supposed to be enlightened and better than that. But sometimes I have to acknowledge as a species we just arent, and I battle with my own thoughts on this subject reasonably regularly, but I would say I by no means on my own on that front.