[Garak]

Our antivaxxers are yelling that the Delta variant is nothing but pure fiction and the recently reported cases are the goverment trying to control us. That nothing was said earlier about the vaccinated being less at risk (yes it was) and thus the vaccinated that ended up in the hospital shows that the vaccine is not a protection but meant to kill us (somehow) and that they had mild cases because they were in the 20-30 age group. Also that Covid is a means of population control, they have added to it that it's all planned since the EU wants to teach sex ed in classes, about abortion safe sex etc, the EU wants to depopulate the country and leave it for the gays.

As you can tell from all that steaming pile of horse manure, they are a combination of crazy, stupid, hate driven. It's making me kinda wish bad, totalitarian things that I despise but in this one case would make an exception.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

This article's given me some hope:

'The Anti-vaccine Con Job Is Becoming Untenable

Why targets of deliberate deception often hesitate to admit they've been deceived

[...] hospital [...] had to create a "private setting" for patients afraid of being seen getting vaccinated against COVID-19. [...] "Several people come in to get vaccinated who have tried to sort of disguise their appearance and even went so far as to say, 'Please, please, please don't let anybody know that I got this vaccine.'" [...]

Sociology suggests that pundits and policy makers have been looking at vaccine refusal all wrong: It's not an individual problem, but a social one. That's why individual information outreach and individual incentives[...] haven't worked.

[...] In Missouri and other red states, vaccine refusal on partisan grounds has become a defining marker of community affiliation. Acceptance within some circles is contingent on refusal to cooperate with the Biden administration's public-health campaign. Getting vaccinated is a betrayal of that group norm, and those who get the shot can legitimately fear losing their job or incurring the wrath of their families and other reference groups.

[...]

Many [...] are enmeshed in a very distinctive type of relationship that sociologists have been studying for more than 70 years: the con job. Con artists gain social or financial advantage by convincing their marks to believe highly dubious claims—and to block out all information to the contrary.

COVID-19-related cons have become big business, not just for right-wing media outlets that have gained viewers while purveying vaccine disinformation but also for small-time social-media grifters and enterprising professionals. [...]

To outsiders, the social dynamics of the con appear peculiar and irrational. Those caught up in it can seem self-destructive and, frankly, clueless. But to sociologists, including me, who study fraud, such behaviors obey a predictable logic.

[... most] targets of con artists eventually come to understand that they have been defrauded, yet they almost never complain or report the crime to authorities. Why? Because[...] admitting that one has been conned is so deeply shameful that marks experience it as a kind of social death. [...]

[...] people targeted by con jobs can save their pride by denying the con as long as possible[...] This saves face and cheats social death, but allows the con to continue unchecked, entrapping others. In doing so, marks prioritize their self-image over the common good.

[...] con artists employ specialists to "cool" marks down when the deception is finally revealed. A cooler, he writes, "has the job of handling persons caught out on a limb—persons whose expectations and self-conceptions have been built up and then shattered." Coolers prevent blowback from angry marks—encouraging them to blame themselves, not the con artist. They help marks rebuild their social identity, retain their self-respect, and preserve their affiliations with their reference groups.

In this light, the recent volte-face of many prominent conservatives toward enthusiastic endorsement of vaccination is great news for everyone who wants to see an end to the pandemic. [...]

[...] Cooling out the marks—which is what all these right-wing efforts to push vaccination represent—works only when the marks perceive the coolers as members in good standing of the same reference groups. Having expressed doubts about COVID-19 vaccination or other pandemic mitigation likely makes Ivey and DeSantis more effective in persuading other conservatives: Their previous positions signify authenticity and in-group loyalty, making them more trustworthy, not less. High-status leaders [...] can expand the range of acceptable behavior for other group members through the example of their own actions.'

https://www.theatlan...respect/619627/

IDK who the analogues might be outside the US....

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 03 August 2021 - 01:04 AM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

My optimism may have been misplaced:

'The [US] right's strategy on COVID-19 vaccines, as planned and executed by the Republican Party and Fox News, was a simple as it was sinister: sabotage [...] Biden's rollout by sacrificing the bodies of their own supporters. If they could convince enough of their people to avoid the vaccine, they could keep COVID-19 transmission rates high and garner headlines from easily duped mainstream outlets declaring things like "Biden falls short" or "Biden fails to contain the virus." For a brief moment in early July, it seemed the plan was working, with a series of headlines that seemingly blamed Biden, flatly ignoring the growing partisan divide on vaccine uptake.


Then the delta variant [...] started tearing through red-state America, creating hot spot maps that neatly correlated to political maps showing rates of support for Donald Trump. There was no longer any denying that a Republican identity is the best predictor of anti-vaccine sentiment. Mainstream media started to pay attention to how much anti-vaccine sentiment was pouring out of Fox News and [...] popular Republican politicians[...]

That was when Republicans and their propagandists at Fox News decided to strategically put out some mealy-mouthed pro-vaccine sentiments. [...]

[...] Send out a few strategic statements meant for the mainstream press to make Republicans seem pro-vaccine while the GOP base is still getting a firehose of anti-vaccination propaganda. "Republicans didn't really have a change of heart; this has been mission accomplished for them, minus the part where the public blames Biden for the mess they made," [...] Fox News is still pumping out a relentless stream of anti-vaccination propaganda and Republicans are still trying to pin the blame on Biden for the surge of infections and the return of miseries like public masking.' '

https://www.salon.co...-is-backfiring/

'people in Trump's circle have urged him to encourage vaccinations, but Trump "doesn't want to do it, he doesn't want to do Joe Biden any favors, and he doesn't think his fans really want it."

[...] While he has at times expressed support for the vaccine and encouraged people to take it, he has done little to actively promote this message — in stark contrast to his attitude toward other talking points he repeats constantly to anyone who will listen. And in one statement last month, he drew a connection between distrusting the Biden administration on vaccines to distrusting the 2020 election results, seemingly bolstering the position of vaccine resisters.'

https://www.alternet...trump-vaccines/

'Ron DeSantis, governor of Florida, isn’t stupid. He is, however, ambitious and supremely cynical. So when he says things that sound stupid it’s worth asking why. And his recent statements on Covid-19 help us understand why so many Americans are still dying or getting severely ill from the disease.

[...] Florida is in the grip of a Covid surge worse than it experienced before the vaccines. [...] the Florida hospital system is under extreme stress.

Above all, he has been playing the liberal-conspiracy-theory card, with fund-raising letters declaring that the “radical left” is “coming for your freedom.”'

[...] when people on the right talk about “freedom” what they actually mean is closer to “defense of privilege” — specifically the right of certain people (generally white male Christians) to do whatever they want. [...]

Once you understand that the rhetoric of freedom is actually about privilege, things that look on the surface like gross inconsistency and hypocrisy start to make sense.

Why, for example, are conservatives so insistent on the right of businesses to make their own decisions, free from regulation — but quick to stop them from denying service to customers who refuse to wear masks or show proof of vaccination? Why is the autonomy of local school districts a fundamental principle — unless they want to require masks or teach America’s racial history? It’s all about whose privilege is being protected.

The reality of what the right means by freedom also, I think, explains the special rage induced by rules that impose some slight inconvenience in the name of the public interest — like the detergent wars of a few years back. After all, only poor people and minority groups are supposed to be asked to make sacrifices.'

https://www.nytimes....a-vaccines.html

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

According to a new preprint, lambda variant mutations make it highly infectious, and vaccine resistant:

https://www.biorxiv....Czc9mWjyV24vlCE

Different mutations than Delta though, so the mRNA booster shots being developed for Delta will probably have to be supplemented by booster shots for Lambda... and probably more to come.

Hopefully a universal coronavirus vaccine isn't just a pipe dream---though I'd guess it's probably still years away at best. Or maybe not, if a similar accelerated, well-funded approach is taken?... It would not only stop covid, but eliminate a large % of cases of the common cold (at least until other virus families take its place), greatly benefiting the world economy (... and decreasing human misery... potentially also reducing transmission of some more serious diseases, if emissions from 'common cold' coronavirus symptoms (coughing, etc.) are a significant factor).

[Macros]

It's almost like the virus has large parts of the population to use as an incubator to undertake these mutations in....

[Maark Abbott]

Macros, on 05 August 2021 - 06:43 AM, said:

It's almost like the virus has large parts of the population to use as an incubator to undertake these mutations in....

Why do you think I'm playing Dead Space again? Training myself for the covid apocalypse me pal

[James Hutton]

Macros, on 05 August 2021 - 06:43 AM, said:

It's almost like the virus has large parts of the population to use as an incubator to undertake these mutations in....

Are there people outside of my cozy, rich, free, Western urban conglomerate?

/sarcasm

[Tiste Simeon]

We're in a weird point here personally. My wife was not pregnant when she got the first AZ jab and when we found out she was pregnant she cancelled the second as the information was still being looked at about it.

Now they're saying Pfizer and Moderna are ok for pregnant women, especially second trimester, which she is now in.

But they don't want to give AZ to pendant women and they don't want to let her mix it or start again with one of Pfizer or Moderna.

So now she really wants the second jab and can't really get it, despite the official government advice being "we really want pregnant women to get vaccinated!"

[QuickTidal]

Tiste Simeon, on 05 August 2021 - 01:51 PM, said:

We're in a weird point here personally. My wife was not pregnant when she got the first AZ jab and when we found out she was pregnant she cancelled the second as the information was still being looked at about it.

Now they're saying Pfizer and Moderna are ok for pregnant women, especially second trimester, which she is now in.

But they don't want to give AZ to pendant women and they don't want to let her mix it or start again with one of Pfizer or Moderna.

So now she really wants the second jab and can't really get it, despite the official government advice being "we really want pregnant women to get vaccinated!"

For what it's worth, our good friend got AZ first dose and Pfizer for her second while preggers and all seems well.

Why are they not wanting her to mix?

[Tiste Simeon]

I dunno they said they wouldn't do it. Course things have changed just this week so they might do. She's going to call the lie again and fight her corner.

[QuickTidal]

Tiste Simeon, on 05 August 2021 - 03:08 PM, said:

I dunno they said they wouldn't do it. Course things have changed just this week so they might do. She's going to call the lie again and fight her corner.

Well hopefully she's able to get it.

[Cyphon]

Turn up at a walk in centre offering them. See if that works?

This post has been edited by Cyphon: 05 August 2021 - 03:44 PM

[amphibian]

Tiste Simeon, on 05 August 2021 - 03:08 PM, said:

I dunno they said they wouldn't do it. Course things have changed just this week so they might do. She's going to call the lie again and fight her corner.

It's tentatively ok to mix and match - as in the studies done so far do not indicate negative results.

I'm citing Nature here - https://www.nature.c...586-021-01805-2

The agency position of World Health Organization is that regional pubic health agencies should be the ones making the call on whether it's ok to mix and match, rather than a "don't do it".

[QuickTidal]

Another province has instituted vaccine passports in Canada (Manitoba was first, Quebec is now second), and I fully expect the Atlantic provinces and BC to do the same...even if AB and SASK hold out because they are filled with Conservatives who "don't like to be told what to do" and Anti-vaxxers....Ontario will buckle eventually and do this too.

Which will make me happy. I expect that some (if not a large chunk) of the 20% of currently unvaccinated people here will fall in line if they can't do most things...and get a shot.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 05 August 2021 - 06:17 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

amphibian, on 05 August 2021 - 05:29 PM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 05 August 2021 - 03:08 PM, said:

I dunno they said they wouldn't do it. Course things have changed just this week so they might do. She's going to call the lie again and fight her corner.

It's tentatively ok to mix and match - as in the studies done so far do not indicate negative results.

I'm citing Nature here - https://www.nature.c...586-021-01805-2

The agency position of World Health Organization is that regional pubic health agencies should be the ones making the call on whether it's ok to mix and match, rather than a "don't do it".

Canada seems to have forged ahead with mix and match---to make the most of limited vaccine doses iirc---while most other countries have been more cautious about the potential 'rare side effects' mentioned in the Nature article.

Incidentally that study suggesting surface transmission is a major source of indoor viral dose I cited earlier as being in Nature was published by Nature Publishing Group (hence nature.com) but not actually in Nature the journal---it was published in Scientific Reports, which Nature claims is also rigorously peer reviewed. However, in contrast to Nature proper, 'Manuscripts are not assessed based on their perceived importance, significance or impact'. The attempt at stochastic simulations could be interesting even if questionable assumptions limit the scope of its real-world relevance. Still, I'd expect peer review to flag the issues I pointed out.... but then again:

'Nature Publishing Group is a for-profit company and that's why they have >150 journals. It's not an exclusive group and being owned by NPG means nothing when it comes to prestige. Scientific Reports publishes the most articles of any journal in the world and it has the quality you'd expect.'

... according to somebody on Reddit.

[Tiste Simeon]

Cyphon, on 05 August 2021 - 03:44 PM, said:

Turn up at a walk in centre offering them. See if that works?

We live on a very small island we just have two hubs for vaccines and neither of them currently offer walk in facility but I think there's discussion going on around it so that might be the way forward.

[Tsundoku]

Tiste Simeon, on 06 August 2021 - 06:20 AM, said:

We live on a very small island

Are you referring to Britain or ... ?

[Macros]

James Hutton, on 05 August 2021 - 01:47 PM, said:

Macros, on 05 August 2021 - 06:43 AM, said:

It's almost like the virus has large parts of the population to use as an incubator to undertake these mutations in....

Are there people outside of my cozy, rich, free, Western urban conglomerate?

/sarcasm

True dat.

But I was referring to the large conservative anti Vax camps the good old US of A.

[Slow Ben]

Macros, on 06 August 2021 - 12:26 PM, said:

James Hutton, on 05 August 2021 - 01:47 PM, said:

Macros, on 05 August 2021 - 06:43 AM, said:

It's almost like the virus has large parts of the population to use as an incubator to undertake these mutations in....

Are there people outside of my cozy, rich, free, Western urban conglomerate?

/sarcasm

True dat.

But I was referring to the large conservative anti Vax camps the good old US of A.

Someone called me a sheep yesterday because I’ve been vaccinated. It’s insane the above normal amount of stupidity going on.

[James Hutton]

Slow Ben, on 06 August 2021 - 01:09 PM, said:

Macros, on 06 August 2021 - 12:26 PM, said:

James Hutton, on 05 August 2021 - 01:47 PM, said:

Macros, on 05 August 2021 - 06:43 AM, said:

It's almost like the virus has large parts of the population to use as an incubator to undertake these mutations in....

Are there people outside of my cozy, rich, free, Western urban conglomerate?

/sarcasm

True dat.

But I was referring to the large conservative anti Vax camps the good old US of A.

Someone called me a sheep yesterday because I've been vaccinated. It's insane the above normal amount of stupidity going on.

It feels ridiculous. We have some of those groups in the Netherlands too. I see stickers with similar you're-a-sheep-if-you-vax messages where I live -- and it's a pretty rich-folk city. Although funny enough, I was house-sitting for a friend a few weeks ago, and I had to take out some empty glass bottles (they're recycled via specific trash bins placed around everywhere, and that's not a new practice like a deposit on small plastic bottles that came in this year). Since I was in a to me new area of town, I asked the neighbor where the closest glass bin was, and they replied: "haha, we just throw them in our general waste container, that's a lot easier!" And I knew they were small-minded folk, but man... the bin is literally around the corner. It's better to recycle it separately than let it go through an incinerator when you throw it in your household's general waste container.

And Macros, I understand you meant the USA conservatives, and you're right. But there's more, and this is something I see especially my colleagues struggle with: at least one whole continent on this planet has vax grades of below 5%, and there's plenty plenty more countries in similar vein. Those are perfectly large parts of Earth's population where a virus can replicate and therefore mutate on and on. And we're in contact with goods and people from those locations. So even if our country has 85% vax rate (or what number is it?) to achieve herd immunity, the planet's herd immunity is far away.

I hope we can roll out planet-wide vaccinations soon.

Sorry if this is too cynical. Didn't want it to be that.