[Macros]

I think (correct me if I'm wrong) QT is, like me and many others, fucked off with articles that circulate on social media with headlines like "are masks really helping?" Etc, and sure the article itself might be a useful break down of what is more effective and what have you. But your Karen's and Florida men don't read the articles, they see a bunch of headlines as affirmation of their dumbfuckery.

The bottom line is wear something, wrap your fucking pants around your head if you are stuck, but something when out and about.

Now, in your workplace there will need to be some more planning and better stuff sure if it's close quarters like a salon. But at a base level, just wear a fucking mask.

All these studies don't help.

Wear a fucking mask.

Get the best one you can without compromising front line supplies, but at a base
Wear a fucking mask

Here's a study that shows we don't need a study to show you need to
Wear a fucking mask.


Every study being done if giving the same kind of answer, wear a fucking mask.

But every study is being misrepresented deliberately by BuzzFeed and it's friends for click bait, which gives the dumbfucks ammunition for their idocracy and freedumz when they see headlines that suggest masks aren't the answer, when in fact you should just
Wear a fucking mask


TLDR?
Wear a fucking mask

[Macros]

And before anyone says
'ah but this study shows....'


Fuck off and wear a fucking mask.

Why?

When you're the only wanker not wearing a fucking mask.....


So wear a fucking mask to shame others into wearing fucking masks. Make a non mask the social fuck up, make them the ugly duckling, the odd one odd. Make them wear a fucking mask.

Slightly tangently related, snow sports.

I do a snow holiday (not cocaine, the white cold stuff on mountains) pretty much every year, have been for 12/13 odd years.

Now, when I started, helmets were not very common. Stupid as this may sound given how fucking dangerous winter sports can be, helmets were not very common.

I have been lucky enough that all my many (many) falls have not involved a head bang.
Part of the reason I didn't invest in a helmet for a long time was, no one else had one, didn't want to look like a fool. I had to buy one for the indoor slopes in Glasgow.
I took it on holidays with me, but still didn't wear it, again, they weren't common so I didn't want to stand out or look like one of the wee duck trails of beginners.

The last few years (especially after Schumacher's accident) host have become far more prevalent, to the point now where not wearing one makes you stand out, this year you are a loner on the slopes nearly without one.

Now I bought myself a decent helmet 3? Years ago because a)getting more common, the year I bought it I was the only one in our group of 10 to arrive without one and mainly b ) advice from a pro, 'dude wear a fucking helmet of some kind, you go fast down the big hills, if you stack that you're gonna hurt'

So in short
Make them the norm
Professionals say to do it

Wear a fucking mask

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

QuickTidal, on 11 August 2020 - 07:24 PM, said:

Azath Vitr (D, on 11 August 2020 - 06:39 PM, said:

In case it wasn't sufficiently clear, the take-away from the studies and articles I quoted today is not that people shouldn't wear cloth masks. It's that wearing N95 masks would most likely be better, particularly if you're in an indoor space with other people for more than short periods of time. As East Asian countries have demonstrated, producing enough N95 (or better) masks for both medical personnel and the general populace is possible. In nations where shortages continue valveless N95 masks should still be reserved for those with greater need, but those shortages can be overcome as production ramps up.

Right, but my point is the devil is in the details.

N95's are for close quarters, for long periods, with COVID patients. Who mostly is that going to fall into that category? Health care and frontline workers.

The idea that you're safer with an N95 VS a surgical (the next one down on the list) in a close quarters normal situation (a mall, or restaurant) is only relevant by minor degrees.

Here's a study: https://advances.sci.../sciadv.abd3083

The relevant info here is that an N95 and Surgical (and even cloth ect.) are so close in nature of droplet-spread as to be indistinguishable by the average citizen, compared to no mask at all, with an 80% reduction in the number of actual droplets from speaking.

Chart:



Fun extra fact: N95's are a "fitted" piece of PPE. This means that for a true fit, you are to be fitted with them and that is for you individually. Buying N95's in bulk and wearing them isn't the same as being fitted with them as Healthcare workers are (normally) testing that fit.


And in most east Asian countries, regular citizens wear surgical masks, not N95's. So I'm not even sure where you get that.

As I posted a few hours ago:

'[...] Incheon's 1,100 pharmacies, including Ms. Yoo's, began to sell out of KF-94 face masks, the equivalent of the American N95.'

https://www.nytimes....k-shortage.html

The rest of the article is about KF-94 masks in South Korea.

And you're citing the exact same Duke University study I posted about multiple times today, with quotes from study's authors.

For people who spend more than short amounts of time indoors with strangers (not just patients coughing in their faces), N95 or P100 masks would most likely make a substantial difference in infection rates.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 11 August 2020 - 07:59 PM

[Malankazooie]

The mask debate (heh, gotta be careful how I say that) is only the tip of the iceberg (damn, innuendo-a-go-go). Just wait until a vaccine is approved and available. Get ready for one of the great fights that will be an identifying marker of this crazy era we're living through.

[QuickTidal]

Fucks sake. The point is that the variables makes that a very specific situation, and it muddies the waters for barely any real benefit. Other than to say "Surgical masks are 93% effective, but N95s are 95% effective!"....like okay...that's fine. Is it enough to muddy the news with shit about the difference?

Azath Vitr (D, on 11 August 2020 - 07:59 PM, said:

For people who spend more than short amounts of time indoors with strangers (not just patients coughing in their faces), N95 or P100 masks would most likely make a substantial difference in infection rates.

Where the the fuck is this really happening other than the healthcare industry where someone is in your face for 15min or more speaking moistly at you, and all other preventative measures are failing as well?

Or have doctors and surgeons been wearing regular surgical masks for years for no reason? Should they not all have been wearing N95s? You would figure if surgical masks were not so great that hospitals would have outlawed them and demanded the use of N95's across the board, especially during flu season, and on immunocompromised floors, no?

And again, N95's need to be properly fitted to be fully efficacious...no one is doing that except health care workers. Do you think the average Joe knows about that? I doubt it. There is also a very specific way to don and remove the N95 mask...do you think anyone but health care workers are doing that? No.

Wear a fucking mask. These constant articles are doing exactly what Macros said, giving fodder to assholes to not wear one by giving breaks in the chain of "wear a mask" the give to shove a wedge into. It's doing no one any favours.

[Imperial Historian]

Azath Vitr (D, on 11 August 2020 - 07:59 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 11 August 2020 - 07:24 PM, said:

Azath Vitr (D, on 11 August 2020 - 06:39 PM, said:

In case it wasn't sufficiently clear, the take-away from the studies and articles I quoted today is not that people shouldn't wear cloth masks. It's that wearing N95 masks would most likely be better, particularly if you're in an indoor space with other people for more than short periods of time. As East Asian countries have demonstrated, producing enough N95 (or better) masks for both medical personnel and the general populace is possible. In nations where shortages continue valveless N95 masks should still be reserved for those with greater need, but those shortages can be overcome as production ramps up.

Right, but my point is the devil is in the details.

N95's are for close quarters, for long periods, with COVID patients. Who mostly is that going to fall into that category? Health care and frontline workers.

The idea that you're safer with an N95 VS a surgical (the next one down on the list) in a close quarters normal situation (a mall, or restaurant) is only relevant by minor degrees.

Here's a study: https://advances.sci.../sciadv.abd3083

The relevant info here is that an N95 and Surgical (and even cloth ect.) are so close in nature of droplet-spread as to be indistinguishable by the average citizen, compared to no mask at all, with an 80% reduction in the number of actual droplets from speaking.

Chart:



Fun extra fact: N95's are a "fitted" piece of PPE. This means that for a true fit, you are to be fitted with them and that is for you individually. Buying N95's in bulk and wearing them isn't the same as being fitted with them as Healthcare workers are (normally) testing that fit.


And in most east Asian countries, regular citizens wear surgical masks, not N95's. So I'm not even sure where you get that.

As I posted a few hours ago:

'[...] Incheon's 1,100 pharmacies, including Ms. Yoo's, began to sell out of KF-94 face masks, the equivalent of the American N95.'

https://www.nytimes....k-shortage.html

The rest of the article is about KF-94 masks in South Korea.

And you're citing the exact same Duke University study I posted about multiple times today, with quotes from study's authors.

For people who spend more than short amounts of time indoors with strangers (not just patients coughing in their faces), N95 or P100 masks would most likely make a substantial difference in infection rates.

I don't disagree that these masks are better, if they are fitted, but the worlds biggest mask manufacturer has committed to make 1 billion of these masks this year. South Korea was providing 2 masks per person a week, in a country with an established mask market and a relatively small population. Scale that out to the west which doesn't have wide scale mask manufacture and there will be a shortage of these type of masks.

Should we be aiming to get N95 quality reusable masks to everyone, yes, in fact I think the government should be distributing and fitting them.

Are we in a position to do this currently? No. Are frontline COVID services short of them, my understanding is that in many places they are.

We should be concentrating our resources in critical areas, and regular folks should be wearing cloth or surgical masks.

So I largely agree with you, but I don't think private citizens should currently be buying N95 masks, they should be wearing regular masks and not putting themselves in the position where they need an N95 mask.

[Primateus]

Malankazooie, on 11 August 2020 - 08:13 PM, said:

The mask debate (heh, gotta be careful how I say that) is only the tip of the iceberg (damn, innuendo-a-go-go). Just wait until a vaccine is approved and available. Get ready for one of the great fights that will be an identifying marker of this crazy era we're living through.

Vaccine's gonna implant you with Bill Gates chips and give you the 5G virus.

Or, unless you use the russian vaccine, or as I like to call it; The Commie Cure. By Trump!

[Malankazooie]

Primateus, on 11 August 2020 - 08:55 PM, said:

Malankazooie, on 11 August 2020 - 08:13 PM, said:

The mask debate (heh, gotta be careful how I say that) is only the tip of the iceberg (damn, innuendo-a-go-go). Just wait until a vaccine is approved and available. Get ready for one of the great fights that will be an identifying marker of this crazy era we're living through.

Vaccine's gonna implant you with Bill Gates chips and give you the 5G virus.

Or, unless you use the russian vaccine, or as I like to call it; The Commie Cure. By Trump!

HydroxychloroWIN!

[Abyss]

Primateus, on 11 August 2020 - 08:55 PM, said:

Malankazooie, on 11 August 2020 - 08:13 PM, said:

The mask debate (heh, gotta be careful how I say that) is only the tip of the iceberg (damn, innuendo-a-go-go). Just wait until a vaccine is approved and available. Get ready for one of the great fights that will be an identifying marker of this crazy era we're living through.

Vaccine's gonna implant you with Bill Gates chips and give you the 5G virus.

Or, unless you use the russian vaccine, or as I like to call it; The Commie Cure. By Trump!

I'm reasonably sure the Russian cure will turn us all into antifa rage-zombies and bring about the end of western civilization.

[D'rek]

QuickTidal, on 11 August 2020 - 08:20 PM, said:

Fucks sake. The point is that the variables makes that a very specific situation, and it muddies the waters for barely any real benefit. Other than to say "Surgical masks are 93% effective, but N95s are 95% effective!"....like okay...that's fine. Is it enough to muddy the news with shit about the difference?

Azath Vitr (D, on 11 August 2020 - 07:59 PM, said:

For people who spend more than short amounts of time indoors with strangers (not just patients coughing in their faces), N95 or P100 masks would most likely make a substantial difference in infection rates.

Where the the fuck is this really happening other than the healthcare industry where someone is in your face for 15min or more speaking moistly at you, and all other preventative measures are failing as well?

Or have doctors and surgeons been wearing regular surgical masks for years for no reason? Should they not all have been wearing N95s? You would figure if surgical masks were not so great that hospitals would have outlawed them and demanded the use of N95's across the board, especially during flu season, and on immunocompromised floors, no?

And again, N95's need to be properly fitted to be fully efficacious...no one is doing that except health care workers. Do you think the average Joe knows about that? I doubt it. There is also a very specific way to don and remove the N95 mask...do you think anyone but health care workers are doing that? No.

Wear a fucking mask. These constant articles are doing exactly what Macros said, giving fodder to assholes to not wear one by giving breaks in the chain of "wear a mask" the give to shove a wedge into. It's doing no one any favours.

Hey QT, you're being really inflammatory, vulgar, and irrationally bullheaded in multiple responses to someone who is replying in polite and open fashion. You're acting the very same way the angry libtard Karens you rage against act. Take a chill pill and can the attitude or get the hell off the discussion board, k?

[QuickTidal]

Pardon me?

I’m sorry profanity is seen as vulgar. That seems an odd comment.

Is it irrationally bullheaded to present the science without the media bent?

The rest of my comments, I’m not ashamed of, nor do I find them inflammatory. Dropping article after click bait article about the efficacy of masks...that’s worth rebuttal. The initial rebuttal was met with more links and zero actual discussion. So I got animated about it. If acting in defence of the bigger picture and the specifics of the science is wrong, I don’t care to be right.

But hey, your the boss here right? So I’m clearly in the wrong. So I’ll bugger off for a while.

Oh and “angry libtard karens” is not a thing....karen’s are generally conservative/right wing.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 12 August 2020 - 03:10 AM

[D'rek]

QuickTidal, on 12 August 2020 - 02:58 AM, said:

So I got animated about it.

Don't

[QuickTidal]

D, on 12 August 2020 - 03:17 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 12 August 2020 - 02:58 AM, said:

So I got animated about it.

Don't

Yes, I already said I heard you.

[D'rek]

For what it's worth, I think everyone in the last couple pages is oversimplifying things to extremes. Just because an N95 should be fitted doesn't mean it has 0 effect when not perfectly fitted; just because the average citizen doesn't need one doesn't mean nobody needs one; for that matter, what does "average citizen" even mean when talking about a global pandemic on a global forum, etc, etc.

Studies are meant to inform on overall trends within a certain context, but we have to be careful about taking those study results outside their initial context or blanket-applying the trend-results to everyone regardless of context.

[Malankazooie]

So, like with the seeds, there are reports face masks from China are showing up in mailboxes here in the US, primarily in the Tampa area from what I've read. So yeah, sounds legit and everything on the up and up. No worries.

This post has been edited by Malankazooie: 12 August 2020 - 05:21 PM

[Gorefest]

Don't get me started about bloody face masks. I am trying to source them for our department staff and students. Surgical style 3-ply masks used to be around 4-5 pounds for a box of 100, now we have companies turning around to us and offering them at 20 quid for a box of 50 masks. I am bankrupting our department but there is nothing to be done about it. All the cheaper options I find are getting cancelled as soon as I order them. Apparently, according to the company reps, it is a buyers market and there is nothing they can do about it. And we are based in a hospital, doing covid-19 research. So much for targeted allocation.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 12 August 2020 - 06:46 PM

[Mezla PigDog]

This is why average healthy Joe public should not be in surgical masks. Sure production will be ramped up but the rate these things are going to be used and the locations that mass production will occur due to labour and infrastructure costs (China and India, capitalism doesn't seem to be going away) will still result in supply chain issues.

Wear a cloth face covering and generally keep out of other peoples way. I'll give a pass to people who are forced into places with high contact rates due to needing to earn a living. All the more reason for people who don't need to be socially mixing to just stay the hell at home as much as possible.

I'm pissed off with governments trying to encourage people out to jump start economies. They should be looking at long term restructuring of economies. It's needed to stop climate change anyway so kills 2 birds with 1 stone. Endless consumption isn't working. Universal basic income and 4 day weeks for a start.

This post has been edited by Mezla PigDog: 12 August 2020 - 07:26 PM

[Imperial Historian]

My company makes a lot of products which generate dust, and usually people wear N95 masks whilst dealing with this.

Getting hold of them at the moment is almost impossible so we've ended up buying everyone air fed helmets.

[Cause]

Masks don’t need to be fitted because the strategy now isn’t to stop you breathing in virus it’s to stop you breathing it out. Will your breath escape outside an ill fitted mask unfiltered? Yes but it’s velocity and direction are now much less dangerous.

If you can blow air out your mouth at your mask and not feel the wind on your hand in front of or face that’s probably more than enough,

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Mezla PigDog, on 12 August 2020 - 07:24 PM, said:

This is why average healthy Joe public should not be in surgical masks. Sure production will be ramped up but the rate these things are going to be used and the locations that mass production will occur due to labour and infrastructure costs (China and India, capitalism doesn't seem to be going away) will still result in supply chain issues.

I was a little surprised just now as I was replacing the P100 filters in my Elipse mask:

'Made in England'

On their website:

'production of the GVS Elipse respirators and filters have been moved from England to Findlay, Ohio - effective 30 April 2020'

http://usadustguard....S_Resprator.htm

Don't know if they rely on components that are manufactured in Asia....

Granted, these have vents. But it seems it should be relatively easy for them to produce a non-vented version. However: 'The production capacity [in Ohio] is estimated to be 5000 masks per day.'

At least for non-medical personnel, since the vent is a relatively small and well-defined area in the middle of the mask, it's simple enough to cut out a piece of a cloth (or old used N95 mask, in my case) and securely tape it around the area. Overall, it forms what's almost certainly a much better seal than you would otherwise get with a cloth or surgical mask.

Without the vents, these are effectively the same as these:


'Reusable respirator masks could be a lifeline for health care workers trying to protect themselves while treating coronavirus patients.

They provide the same level of protection as disposable N95 respirators, which are in short supply around the world. They can be easily disinfected between patients and shifts. And they last for months.

But the nation's emergency supply of medical equipment never stocked them, despite years of research predicting dire shortfalls of disposable respirators during a pandemic and recommendations to stockpile reusable ones.

The decision not to buy them for the Strategic National Stockpile is inexplicable to Tom Frieden, who led the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention until 2017.

"You can get one to a health care worker and say, 'Here's how you clean it and it's yours for the duration of the pandemic,'" Frieden told USA TODAY. "And those are on the market."'

[...] In addition to disposable masks, that study recommended stockpiling reusable respirators over air-purifying devices because they cost less and are easier to use.

Officials running the national stockpile should have bought reusable respirators, said Lisa Pompeii, a researcher at Baylor College of Medicine.

Pompeii is the lead author of a study published last week that concluded health care workers could be quickly fitted for reusable respirators and trained on how to use them.'

https://www.usatoday...tor/5118669002/

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 13 August 2020 - 11:34 PM