[QuickTidal]

Aptorian, on 10 August 2020 - 04:57 PM, said:

So, you're using reusable masks? I've been looking for reusable masks (in Denmark) but none of the ones I find seem to live up to the medical standards that are recommended. You can get them with replaceable filters but there's no info on their specifications.

Which sucks because I'd much rather buy a handful of reusable masks, than the one time use versions that the pharmacies are selling.

Yes, I followed some studies about various facemasks and their efficacy against not only COVID-19 droplets, but those of Influenza and whatnot.

The tests ran the gamut of types from the best (N95) to the worst/least effective (bandanas tied like you're holding up a train in the old west or like holding up a handkerchief to your nose).

The good news is that every single face covering was at least somewhat effective at preventing the droplets from getting out/getting in...with N95, Surgical (the blue/white ones you buy by the box), were followed fairly closely by cotton/reusable masks that have become sort of ubiquitous now, and then onwards from there depending on the liners/weaves.

So yeah, we use cloth reusable ones (we also have N95s and surgical because my wife is in the health care industry and we just also had those on hand when the pandemic started; though we gave a bunch away to the hospital where my friends wife works in Resp. therapy as they sorely needed them initially) and just boil them on the stove every few days to clean them (putting them through the washing machine might be too rough on them anyways). I have a few different kids. All are cotton, double lined.

Here's a decent article with examples: https://www.wsj.com/...ing-11595083298

Even the cloth masks are solidly good compared to nothing at all for us regular joes.

I got my fave ones off a CDN Etsy store for about $15 each. My wife also wears ones from there and she loves it. We also felt good about helping support a Canadian Etsy homemade designers during COVID when her regular store might not get as much traffic.

EDIT: Unless someone is coughing/sneezing directly into your face...you don't need an N95 in public. The frontline workers who are dealing in hospitals where COVID actually is need them becuase their chances of hitting droplets is much increased. So really just choose between the disposable surgical (blue white) ones that come in boxes of like 100, or just get 1 or 2 reusable cloth coverings and wash them every few days. Both are very likely providing you the support you need as long as you're still practicing the other measures like social distancing when possible. If you're really concerned, you can get one with the removable filters and whatnot...but if you're getting something with a disposable component, you might as well just use the regular surgical.

Mezla PigDog, on 10 August 2020 - 05:38 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 10 August 2020 - 04:57 PM, said:

So, you're using reusable masks? I've been looking for reusable masks (in Denmark) but none of the ones I find seem to live up to the medical standards that are recommended. You can get them with replaceable filters but there's no info on their specifications.

Which sucks because I'd much rather buy a handful of reusable masks, than the one time use versions that the pharmacies are selling.

I think it's important for healthy regular people to not use up anything that healthcare workers or more at risk people might need. This thing could go on for a few years and stocks need to last. Nevermind single use plastics - climate change hasn't gone away.

This is super important. In the community cloth and other reusable masks are good enough for our needs...the N95s and surgicals really should be saved/stockpiled for the frontline workers. Not us.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 10 August 2020 - 07:19 PM

[Aptorian]

I think I'm going to buy a few then just in case.

Unfortunately I also have a nice full beard so I'm postponing having to do the eventual shave as long as I can.

[QuickTidal]

Aptorian, on 10 August 2020 - 07:13 PM, said:

I think I'm going to buy a few then just in case.

Unfortunately I also have a nice full beard so I'm postponing having to do the eventual shave as long as I can.

You lie, the Apt in my head doesn't have a beard of any sort! He looks like Rick Moranis circa 'Honey, I Shrunk the Kids'!

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'Putin hails new Sputnik moment as Russia is first to approve a COVID-19 vaccine

[...] The vaccine, which will be called “Sputnik V” in homage to the world’s first satellite launched by the Soviet Union, has however not yet completed its final trials.

Moscow’s decision to grant approval before then has raised concerns among some experts. Only about 10% of clinical trials are successful and some scientists fear Moscow may be putting national prestige before safety.'

https://www.reuters....boTu4PMjv5dkJpM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Mezla PigDog, on 10 August 2020 - 05:38 PM, said:

I think it's important for healthy regular people to not use up anything that healthcare workers or more at risk people might need. This thing could go on for a few years and stocks need to last. Nevermind single use plastics - climate change hasn't gone away.

Do you seriously think mask production can't be increased to meet mass demand, even over a period of years?... Factories may take months to transition to producing masks, but if the political or economic will exists, it's certainly doable. Since aerosolized particles *do* seem to be a significant means of transmission, N95 or P100 masks should be significantly more effective than cloth masks. (Fit testing should be more widely available, and could provide a new major form of employment.)

As for the issue of pollution from single-use plastics---reusable P100 masks are almost certainly more effective anyway, and the replaceable filters last considerably longer.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 11 August 2020 - 03:57 PM

[Imperial Historian]

Current evidence is limited on mask use to prevent covid, but seem to suggest that there is possibly some benefit to wearing a mask, if used properly with suitable other precautions.

N95 is better in a clinical setting but is not really suitable for general use as to get the true effectiveness out of them you need to wear them properly which requires fit testing etc.

We are in the middle of a shortage of n95 masks at the moment so regular people should not be buying them.

You are more at risk buying them as the shortages will impact your health providers, so in the event of an outbreak will be unable to provide suitable care.

Any face covering (if you learn how to wear it properly, from my observation 95 percent of people are not) , hand washing and obeying social distancing will serve you almost as well in normal life.

It really bugs me people stockpiling/buying masks at the moment, especially as the main role of the mask is not to prevent you catching corona virus it's to reduce the risk of you spreading it to others.

[Imperial Historian]

Aptorian, on 10 August 2020 - 07:13 PM, said:

I think I'm going to buy a few then just in case.

Unfortunately I also have a nice full beard so I'm postponing having to do the eventual shave as long as I can.

Also if you have a beard you will gain zero benefit from using an n95 mask vs any other cloth covering, they require a tight face fit to achieve that.

[Abyss]

I can't speak to anywhere else but in Ontario masks are easily available now. Pretty much every corner store and gas station is selling three-packs, stores/restaurants are giving disposables away to patrons who don't have their own.

The running theory seems to be that the mask protects other people from you if you're a carrier, with a peripheral benefit as a reminder to keep your hands off your face. I think there is some validity to the proper fit/ facial hair etc concerns, but at base, wearing one over mouth and nose will contain the virus better than not wearing one.

People wearing one only over their mouth, not nose, are missing all the points.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'How South Korea Solved Its Face Mask Shortage

Neighborhood pharmacists and government intervention were the secret weapons.

[...] Incheon's 1,100 pharmacies, including Ms. Yoo's, began to sell out of KF-94 face masks, the equivalent of the American N95. So did corner stores and large retail chains like E-Mart. As Koreans learned of the scale and aggressiveness of Covid-19, first from Chinese reports, then from a surge of cases at home, the mask with the weave and construction that proved most effective against the virus could not be found, except at exorbitant prices online.

[...] Such was the extent of the "mask crisis" when the central government decided to intervene in production and distribution. At the end of February, it announced that it would purchase 50 percent of KF-94 masks from the nation's 130 or so manufacturers. The government began to ship these masks, at a discounted price of 1,500 won each (about $1.23), to some 23,000 pharmacies

[...] Pharmacies would earn no more than a few dozen cents on each sale — a few even reported losing money because of credit-card fees — but they embraced their role in the epidemic response. Licensed pharmacists were ideally placed to answer questions about Covid-19, give instructions on social distancing and proper use of masks, and refer sick people to field testing stations and hospitals.

[...] wearing face masks[...] has long been common in East Asia, not only during disease outbreaks, but also during cold season and whenever air pollution levels rise.

[...] South Korea and Taiwan responded to their mask crises with significant market interventions. America needs to do the same. The U.S. government, and state and municipal bodies, should immediately enter into large-scale contracts to produce masks that can be sold at an affordable, standard price.'

https://www.nytimes....k-shortage.html

(Since that article was published, the research on airborne transmission has advanced, partly because of a major Korean study. Relatively aerosolized particles, not just droplets, transmit the virus more than had previously been hoped, which strongly implies that N95 or P100 masks will be significantly more effective even for people who aren't health care workers. Fit testing can be provided; there are many unemployed people capable of learning to administer it. Reusable P100 masks are adjustable and fit the vast majority of people without the need for fit testing; the seal can easily be perceived by the wearer.)

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 11 August 2020 - 04:56 PM

[amphibian]

Azath Vitr (D, on 11 August 2020 - 03:57 PM, said:

Do you seriously think mask production can't be increased to meet mass demand, even over a period of years?... Factories may take months to transition to producing masks, but if the political or economic will exists, it's certainly doable. Since aerosolized particles *do* seem to be a significant means of transmission, N95 or P100 masks should be significantly more effective than cloth masks. (Fit testing should be more widely available, and could provide a new major form of employment.)

As for the issue of pollution from single-use plastics---reusable P100 masks are almost certainly more effective anyway, and the replaceable filters last considerably longer.

Right now, a large part of the companies producing or pathways to producing and obtaining more N95/P100 masks are using forced Uighur labor in China.

https://www.nytimes....rced-labor.html

I have to be clear that it's not all companies, but it's a big enough number that it's incredibly uncomfortable ethically for me.

So this is a situation where if we can give the medical world the N95/P100 masks they ask for and figure out our own options that don't involve what is effectively slave labor, that's a better choice in a situation where there are no good choices.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'Duke University researchers developed a way of testing various types of masks to see which did the best job of stopping droplets coming from people's mouths, preventing spread of the new coronavirus.

[...] What masks do the best job? That would be N95 masks without valves, followed by surgical or polypropylene masks.'

https://www.upi.com/.../6541596835026/

'A fitted N95 mask, which is used most commonly by hospital workers, was the most effective, Warren said, noting that the mask allowed “no droplets at all” to come out. Meanwhile, a breathable neck gaiter, well-liked by runners for its lightweight fabric, ranked worse than the no-mask control group. The gaiter tested by the researchers was described in the study as a “neck fleece” made out of a polyester spandex material, Warren said.

“It’s not the case that any mask is better than nothing,” he said. “There are some masks that actually hurt rather than do good.”

Other types of face coverings that may fall into that category are bandanas and knitted masks, the study found. An N95 mask with an exhalation valve also failed to measure up.'

https://www.washingt...a9a6_story.html

[QuickTidal]

Wear a fucking mask. Asian countries have done this for years without complaint. It's not an argument. It doesn't need 80 studies to prove anything. Wear. A. Fucking. Mask. Around. Others.

Is a regular mask better than a neck gaiter? Sure. Is that a conversation we should be having? Not really.

I'm so sick of seeing this shit in the news so constantly as a talking point. All it's doing is helping the conversation for the asshats in the States (and here) who are refusing to wear them.

Stop talking about it. Wear one. This is not hard.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'Back then, cloth masks of any sort started to seem like an effective tool, since they could successfully block such droplets. But aerosols are a smaller kind of particle—one that is emitted when we cough and sneeze, but also when we breathe, talk, or sing. Because of their small size, aerosols can stay in the air much longer, allowing them to travel further and potentially more easily slip through someone else's mask. If it's both aerosols and droplets that are transmitting the virus, then the calculus on masks might need to shift.

[...] "If everyone had fit-tested N95s?" she asked. "That would be great."'

https://www.vice.com...-you-invincible

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 11 August 2020 - 05:31 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

From the last article:

'But she also believes cloth masks are unlikely to protect workers who are in an enclosed space for hours on end, a theory that was also borne out at the Missouri salon, where the COVID-positive stylist infected another stylist because they were in the same enclosed environment for multiple hours. "I don't know if it's 30 minutes or two hours, but the longer you're in a room with someone who has the virus, the more opportunity there is for transmission," Santarpia said. There's evidence to support the belief too. In July, Amanda Wilson, an environmental health sciences doctoral candidate at the University of Arizona, published a study that found "the more time a person spends in an environment where the virus is present, the less effective the mask becomes."

In stories about the salon, however, very little was mentioned about the stylist who became infected. The headline of The Washington Post story read “The outbreak that didn’t happen: Masks credited with preventing coronavirus spread inside Missouri hair salon.” Brosseau worries that these kinds of stories are being used to push workers back to unsafe environments, and that it's important to highlight the difference between what happened with the clients and stylists. "I'm worried we're turning a knife in the back of workers," she said.'

https://www.vice.com...-you-invincible

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 11 August 2020 - 05:48 PM

[QuickTidal]

These stories are garbage and depend on people not following the protocols that should be adhered to along WITH masks, social distancing, hand sanitizing, and all the rest of it.

Is everyone going to be safe in every situation? Obviously not. Does that ratio outweigh the reasoning of wearing masks? Also no.

Do we need studies about masks keeping everyone 100% safe in prologued situations? Fuck no. Why? Because healthcare workers wearing N95's are getting sick and have been this whole time! Like holy hell.

I'll say it again, these articles are worthless...being in a salon with an infected person for hours? Yeah, you're probably getting sick. This is not rocket science.

Like this is just what the media wants to do right now...they want clickbait articles, and this sort of fear-based, anti-science propaganda "Is it REALLY helpful to wear a mask? You'll never guess the answer!" is perfect fodder for them and their advertisers.

Follow doctors and scientists on the front line. Find ones you trust, who can show you real studies about things without weird ass caveats about the situation, and stick to those.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

QuickTidal, on 11 August 2020 - 06:05 PM, said:

These stories are garbage and depend on people not following the protocols that should be adhered to along WITH masks, social distancing, hand sanitizing, and all the rest of it.

Is everyone going to be safe in every situation? Obviously not. Does that ratio outweigh the reasoning of wearing masks? Also no.

Do we need studies about masks keeping everyone 100% safe in prologued situations? Fuck no. Why? Because healthcare workers wearing N95's are getting sick and have been this whole time! Like holy hell.

I'll say it again, these articles are worthless...being in a salon with an infected person for hours? Yeah, you're probably getting sick. This is not rocket science.

Like this is just what the media wants to do right now...they want clickbait articles, and this sort of fear-based, anti-science propaganda "Is it REALLY helpful to wear a mask? You'll never guess the answer!" is perfect fodder for them and their advertisers.

Follow doctors and scientists on the front line. Find ones you trust, who can show you real studies about things without weird ass caveats about the situation, and stick to those.

You seem overly fixated on the clickbait headlines, which have little to do with the actual articles.

They actually are quoting scientists who have been on the frontlines of research into the efficacy of different types of masks. They are not fringe whackadoodles, and the studies being cited do apply substantively to real (and common) situations.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 11 August 2020 - 06:20 PM

[QuickTidal]

Azath Vitr (D, on 11 August 2020 - 06:17 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 11 August 2020 - 06:05 PM, said:

These stories are garbage and depend on people not following the protocols that should be adhered to along WITH masks, social distancing, hand sanitizing, and all the rest of it.

Is everyone going to be safe in every situation? Obviously not. Does that ratio outweigh the reasoning of wearing masks? Also no.

Do we need studies about masks keeping everyone 100% safe in prologued situations? Fuck no. Why? Because healthcare workers wearing N95's are getting sick and have been this whole time! Like holy hell.

I'll say it again, these articles are worthless...being in a salon with an infected person for hours? Yeah, you're probably getting sick. This is not rocket science.

Like this is just what the media wants to do right now...they want clickbait articles, and this sort of fear-based, anti-science propaganda "Is it REALLY helpful to wear a mask? You'll never guess the answer!" is perfect fodder for them and their advertisers.

Follow doctors and scientists on the front line. Find ones you trust, who can show you real studies about things without weird ass caveats about the situation, and stick to those.

You seem overly fixated on the clickbait headline, which has little to do with the actual article.

And you assume I didn't read the article.

[Malankazooie]

In my area, various places of business will hand out face masks if you don't have one. Of course the "Karens / Florida Men" will see red and storm off, because - "muh freedumbz."

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

In case it wasn't sufficiently clear, the take-away from the studies and articles I quoted today is not that people shouldn't wear cloth masks. It's that wearing N95 masks would most likely be better, particularly if you're in an indoor space with other people for more than short periods of time. As East Asian countries have demonstrated, producing enough N95 (or better) masks for both medical personnel and the general populace is possible. In nations where shortages continue valveless N95 masks should still be reserved for those with greater need, but those shortages can be overcome as production ramps up.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 11 August 2020 - 06:39 PM

[QuickTidal]

Azath Vitr (D, on 11 August 2020 - 06:39 PM, said:

In case it wasn't sufficiently clear, the take-away from the studies and articles I quoted today is not that people shouldn't wear cloth masks. It's that wearing N95 masks would most likely be better, particularly if you're in an indoor space with other people for more than short periods of time. As East Asian countries have demonstrated, producing enough N95 (or better) masks for both medical personnel and the general populace is possible. In nations where shortages continue valveless N95 masks should still be reserved for those with greater need, but those shortages can be overcome as production ramps up.

Right, but my point is the devil is in the details.

N95's are for close quarters, for long periods, with COVID patients. Who mostly is that going to fall into that category? Health care and frontline workers.

The idea that you're safer with an N95 VS a surgical (the next one down on the list) in a close quarters normal situation (a mall, or restaurant) is only relevant by minor degrees.

Here's a study: https://advances.sci.../sciadv.abd3083

The relevant info here is that an N95 and Surgical (and even cloth ect.) are so close in nature of droplet-spread as to be indistinguishable by the average citizen, compared to no mask at all, with an 80% reduction in the number of actual droplets from speaking.

Chart:

 Chart.png (338.87K)
Number of downloads: 0

Fun extra fact: N95's are a "fitted" piece of PPE. This means that for a true fit, you are to be fitted with them and that is for you individually. Buying N95's in bulk and wearing them isn't the same as being fitted with them as Healthcare workers are (normally) testing that fit.


And in most east Asian countries, regular citizens wear surgical masks, not N95's. So I'm not even sure where you get that.