[Tsundoku]

Fair enough, I guess we'll see what happens.

Pretty safe to assume China is always lying though.
Kind of like Trump really. Just as much of a bully, but less stupid.

[Maark Abbott]

Macros, on 18 February 2020 - 03:09 PM, said:

But Rupert said!
It's time to get irrationally racist!

BWEKSIT!

Wait, wrong thread

[Gorefest]

Pet peeve alert!

[Kanese S's]

Tsundoku, on 14 February 2020 - 08:18 AM, said:

Looks like China may have been underestimating infection rates just a wee bit. Well colour me totally unsurprised.

https://www.news.com...39151476b5474e3

I guess they can give this test of version 2.0 (SARS being v 1.0) a cautious tick.

Please stop spreading bullshit conspiracy theories.

Gorefest, on 18 February 2020 - 01:32 PM, said:

It's not a tinkered virus. There are absolutely no signs of anyone having bio-engineered it. Sequencing analysis so far points to natural evolution of the virus. There is also no evidence for under-reporting of cases by the Chinese government, as the current infection figures are in line with estimates made from epidemiology studies.

Indeed. Everyone wants to pretend this is Resident Evil or something. There's just a bunch of scaremongering. Meanwhile, 10,000 people have died from the regular flu this season. But it's the hot new yellow peril virus we should be afraid of.

Macros, on 18 February 2020 - 03:09 PM, said:

But Rupert said!
It's time to get irrationally racist!

Exactly. There's definitely a sickening undercurrent of sinophobia to all this. Sometimes it's overt.

Gorefest, on 18 February 2020 - 03:15 PM, said:

They should parachute Rupert into Wuhan. He's right up there in the list of 'If you could travel back in time, who would you stop from being born?' individuals.

Same. It's hard to quantify Murdoch's damage to the world, but it's certainly significant.

Tsundoku, on 19 February 2020 - 08:07 AM, said:

Fair enough, I guess we'll see what happens.

Pretty safe to assume China is always lying though.
Kind of like Trump really. Just as much of a bully, but less stupid.

I think you should question that assumption.

People think that China is like this inscrutable Bond villain-esque country. Yet they publish their Five Year Plans for everyone to see.

Meanwhile you have the NYT and CNN openly admitting that they just trust whatever the US State Department and the CIA say about a place.

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 19 February 2020 - 08:07 PM

[Gorefest]

Tsundoku, on 19 February 2020 - 08:07 AM, said:

Pretty safe to assume China is always lying though.

Not wanting to come across as too blunt, but perpetuating these kinds of sentiments online isn't really helpful. At present, Chinese researchers are being threatened and abused through social media and other outlets, which means that they will be less likely to collaborate with other international researchers. The Chinese research labs have been very collaborative and proactive in sharing research data about SARS for years and currently do the same for COVID-19, but this current witch hunt could mean that such information sharing is going to be shut down. That would be truly disastrous for world-wide epidemiology.

[Tsundoku]

I said China. As in the the CCP who run the PRC. Not Chinese individually.

Although you can be pretty sure after the debacle with the way the news broke and the doctor later dying the authorities will be watching very, very carefully. And keeping what gets released to the rest of the world on a tight rein.
You might even say they could be "riding their shoulders".

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 20 February 2020 - 11:57 AM

[Kanese S's]

Tsundoku, on 20 February 2020 - 11:55 AM, said:

I said China. As in the the CCP who run the PRC. Not Chinese individually.

Although you can be pretty sure after the debacle with the way the news broke and the doctor later dying the authorities will be watching very, very carefully. And keeping what gets released to the rest of the world on a tight rein.
You might even say they could be "riding their shoulders".

The CPC are not mustache twirling cartoon villains, despite what the US State Department and CIA would say. Most of the conspiracy theories reek of sinophobia.

Even in a one party state, "the authorities" are not really monolithic. From what I can tell, the issues with the doctor were with local administrators before Beijing was even aware of what was going on.

[Tsundoku]

Kanese S, on 20 February 2020 - 09:30 PM, said:

Tsundoku, on 20 February 2020 - 11:55 AM, said:

I said China. As in the the CCP who run the PRC. Not Chinese individually.

Although you can be pretty sure after the debacle with the way the news broke and the doctor later dying the authorities will be watching very, very carefully. And keeping what gets released to the rest of the world on a tight rein.
You might even say they could be "riding their shoulders".

The CPC are not mustache twirling cartoon villains, despite what the US State Department and CIA would say. Most of the conspiracy theories reek of sinophobia.

I'd say paranoia rather than sinophobia specifically. And I trust the CIA etc about as much as the CCP.

Quote

Even in a one party state, "the authorities" are not really monolithic. From what I can tell, the issues with the doctor were with local administrators before Beijing was even aware of what was going on.

Point. But I think that was more accurate up until recently. Have you seen the sheer size and complexity of the PRC monitoring programs? Plus the 'social credit' thing? That shit is insane! And it's only going to get worse for the citizens, poor bastards. China isn't quite monolithic, but they're closer than anywhere else, especially after we had the wonderful news of "Presidente por vida" Xi.

Technology (and a conformist mindset in the population due to it's history) has given totalitarian countries in general and China in particular a scary new toy to keep control. One the world hasn't seen before and is only slowly becoming aware of the ramifications. Have you seen the speed with which China clamps down on dissent? Is it even possible for activists to remain unobserved? Note what's going on with the Uighurs, with the sheer overwhelming levels of force China can bring to bear on it's on people. Some really troubling stuff. While they may not be moustache twirling villains (interesting mental image), what they are doing can only be interpreted one way. And it's not a positive way.

Of course the same thing is distantly possible in the west, even with our less conformist mindset. But it's piecemeal. Corporations rather than single govt entities know all our shit that we happily give thm in return for ... what? "Likes"? Convenience? The motivation for them over here is profit rather than suppression, but if a govt mnages to centralise a lot of this stuff or gain access by stealth ...

Anyhoo, food for thought. Stuff we've been warned about for ages but are only now beginning to appreciate.

Well, that was deeper than I intended. Apologies.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 21 February 2020 - 12:00 AM

[Kanese S's]

Tsundoku, on 20 February 2020 - 11:56 PM, said:

Kanese S, on 20 February 2020 - 09:30 PM, said:

Tsundoku, on 20 February 2020 - 11:55 AM, said:

I said China. As in the the CCP who run the PRC. Not Chinese individually.

Although you can be pretty sure after the debacle with the way the news broke and the doctor later dying the authorities will be watching very, very carefully. And keeping what gets released to the rest of the world on a tight rein.
You might even say they could be "riding their shoulders".

The CPC are not mustache twirling cartoon villains, despite what the US State Department and CIA would say. Most of the conspiracy theories reek of sinophobia.

I'd say paranoia rather than sinophobia specifically. And I trust the CIA etc about as much as the CCP.

Quote

Even in a one party state, "the authorities" are not really monolithic. From what I can tell, the issues with the doctor were with local administrators before Beijing was even aware of what was going on.

Point. But I think that was more accurate up until recently. Have you seen the sheer size and complexity of the PRC monitoring programs? Plus the 'social credit' thing? That shit is insane! And it's only going to get worse for the citizens, poor bastards. China isn't quite monolithic, but they're closer than anywhere else, especially after we had the wonderful news of "Presidente por vida" Xi.

Technology (and a conformist mindset in the population due to it's history) has given totalitarian countries in general and China in particular a scary new toy to keep control. One the world hasn't seen before and is only slowly becoming aware of the ramifications. Have you seen the speed with which China clamps down on dissent? Is it even possible for activists to remain unobserved? Note what's going on with the Uighurs, with the sheer overwhelming levels of force China can bring to bear on it's on people. Some really troubling stuff. While they may not be moustache twirling villains (interesting mental image), what they are doing can only be interpreted one way. And it's not a positive way.

Of course the same thing is distantly possible in the west, even with our less conformist mindset. But it's piecemeal. Corporations rather than single govt entities know all our shit that we happily give thm in return for ... what? "Likes"? Convenience? The motivation for them over here is profit rather than suppression, but if a govt mnages to centralise a lot of this stuff or gain access by stealth ...

Anyhoo, food for thought. Stuff we've been warned about for ages but are only now beginning to appreciate.

Well, that was deeper than I intended. Apologies.

The social credit thing is really quite overblown. It's shit like smoking on the train will result in you not being allowed to take their high speed rail anymore. Also characterizing all of China as having a "conformist mindset" is pretty orientalist. Calling China "totalitarian" is really generalizing a complex political system. One of the key differences in China is that unlike here, you are more likely to get arrested for political activity the more powerful and wealthy you are.

Also, again, most stuff about the Uighurs comes from the CIA or US State Department, or from sources with direct ties to one, the other, or both. Often it's blatant lies with video or photo "evidence" that's actually of police beating people in Pakistan, for example. Note that no Islamic majority countries that aren't US allies have really said anything about it. Similar to the USSR during the Cold War, a paradigm exists in our media, specifically in news, where you can essentially accuse China of anything and people will believe you without much, if any evidence, whereas when you accuse our own country of doing something bad, much more substantial sourcing is expected.


Activists are already monitored in the west. If you think we aren't, then you are naive. Mostly people are just tracked and monitored so as to sell you shit, though.

Remember, there are no non-ideological sources. Any source claiming to be is really just complying with whatever the dominant ideology in its society is.

[Imperial Historian]

Kanese S, on 21 February 2020 - 12:22 AM, said:

Tsundoku, on 20 February 2020 - 11:56 PM, said:

Kanese S, on 20 February 2020 - 09:30 PM, said:

Tsundoku, on 20 February 2020 - 11:55 AM, said:

I said China. As in the the CCP who run the PRC. Not Chinese individually.

Although you can be pretty sure after the debacle with the way the news broke and the doctor later dying the authorities will be watching very, very carefully. And keeping what gets released to the rest of the world on a tight rein.
You might even say they could be "riding their shoulders".

The CPC are not mustache twirling cartoon villains, despite what the US State Department and CIA would say. Most of the conspiracy theories reek of sinophobia.

I'd say paranoia rather than sinophobia specifically. And I trust the CIA etc about as much as the CCP.

Quote

Even in a one party state, "the authorities" are not really monolithic. From what I can tell, the issues with the doctor were with local administrators before Beijing was even aware of what was going on.

Point. But I think that was more accurate up until recently. Have you seen the sheer size and complexity of the PRC monitoring programs? Plus the 'social credit' thing? That shit is insane! And it's only going to get worse for the citizens, poor bastards. China isn't quite monolithic, but they're closer than anywhere else, especially after we had the wonderful news of "Presidente por vida" Xi.

Technology (and a conformist mindset in the population due to it's history) has given totalitarian countries in general and China in particular a scary new toy to keep control. One the world hasn't seen before and is only slowly becoming aware of the ramifications. Have you seen the speed with which China clamps down on dissent? Is it even possible for activists to remain unobserved? Note what's going on with the Uighurs, with the sheer overwhelming levels of force China can bring to bear on it's on people. Some really troubling stuff. While they may not be moustache twirling villains (interesting mental image), what they are doing can only be interpreted one way. And it's not a positive way.

Of course the same thing is distantly possible in the west, even with our less conformist mindset. But it's piecemeal. Corporations rather than single govt entities know all our shit that we happily give thm in return for ... what? "Likes"? Convenience? The motivation for them over here is profit rather than suppression, but if a govt mnages to centralise a lot of this stuff or gain access by stealth ...

Anyhoo, food for thought. Stuff we've been warned about for ages but are only now beginning to appreciate.

Well, that was deeper than I intended. Apologies.

The social credit thing is really quite overblown. It's shit like smoking on the train will result in you not being allowed to take their high speed rail anymore. Also characterizing all of China as having a "conformist mindset" is pretty orientalist. Calling China "totalitarian" is really generalizing a complex political system. One of the key differences in China is that unlike here, you are more likely to get arrested for political activity the more powerful and wealthy you are.

Also, again, most stuff about the Uighurs comes from the CIA or US State Department, or from sources with direct ties to one, the other, or both. Often it's blatant lies with video or photo "evidence" that's actually of police beating people in Pakistan, for example. Note that no Islamic majority countries that aren't US allies have really said anything about it. Similar to the USSR during the Cold War, a paradigm exists in our media, specifically in news, where you can essentially accuse China of anything and people will believe you without much, if any evidence, whereas when you accuse our own country of doing something bad, much more substantial sourcing is expected.


Activists are already monitored in the west. If you think we aren't, then you are naive. Mostly people are just tracked and monitored so as to sell you shit, though.

Remember, there are no non-ideological sources. Any source claiming to be is really just complying with whatever the dominant ideology in its society is.

Many statements about China and the recent corona virus scare do smack of sinophobia and conspiracy theories.

The idea that the detention and reeducation of the uighur, or that China does not openly act in a manner considered repressive by most ofthe West, and that this has just been manufactured by the CIA however is also a conspiracy theory. Whilst the sourcing on a secretive progam in a country which is an expert at controlling information is sparse, I don't think it can be disputed that there is a systematic program specifically targetting the ethnic uighur and restricting there rights.

[Morgoth]

Hand waving the terrible treatment of the Uighurs as a CIA conspiracy is rather disgusting. I understand pushing back against the racism, but to go so far in the other direction as to defend what is undeniably a brutal and repressive regime is not a reasonable answer.

The CIA is not some world encompassing supervillain. The Uighurs are being mass incarcerated.

[Gorefest]

For those of you who are interested, this is an interactive global map of COVID-19 cases:

https://gisanddata.m...423467b48e9ecf6

[Aptorian]

0 infected in Denmark so far.

Our media people are really disappointed.

[Mezla PigDog]

Our chief exec at work sent a message to everyone asking us to avoid non-essential travel due to coronavirus. The message ends with "If you have questions ask your line manager". We line managers have been asking for a week what our executives define as "essential" and the answer seems to be "You decide". Helpful.

[Kanese S's]

Morgoth, on 21 February 2020 - 09:53 AM, said:

Hand waving the terrible treatment of the Uighurs as a CIA conspiracy is rather disgusting. I understand pushing back against the racism, but to go so far in the other direction as to defend what is undeniably a brutal and repressive regime is not a reasonable answer.

The CIA is not some world encompassing supervillain. The Uighurs are being mass incarcerated.

No, they really aren't.

No, the UN did not report China has ‘massive internment camps’ for Uighur Muslims

China detaining millions of Uyghurs? Serious problems with claims by US-backed NGO and far-right researcher ‘led by God’ against Beijing

What the Media Is Getting Wrong about China, Uyghurs and Conflict in Xinjiang

Xinjiang and Uyghurs — What You’re Not Being Told

Latest set of rumors about Xinjiang refuted

Western double standards on Xinjiang busted

The Biggest Lie Of 2019: That China Is Putting Muslims In “Concentration Camps”

U.S. public gets fake news about China’s alleged anti-Muslim campaign

Allegedly ‘missing’ Uyghurs found living normally

Tracking down relocated Uygur graves in China's Xinjiang

China Focus: Unveil the truth of Xinjiang vocational, education centers

Xinjiang trainees graduate

Most of What We Hear About China Is Red Scare, Yellow Peril Propaganda

Xinjiang scores victories in the war on poverty

Nearly 100 scholars, religious leaders in Xinjiang refute Pompeo with joint letter

Muslims enjoy freedom in Xinjiang: China Islamic Association

Over 11,000 Chinese Muslims from Xinjiang proceed to Saudi Arabia for Hajj

China launches anti-poverty drive in restive Xinjiang

Joint Statement on Xinjiang at Third Committee at United Nations [UN]

China Invites Foreign Diplomats, Agencies to Visit Xinjiang Training Centres

Pakistani diplomat narrates visit to China's Xinjiang

Behind the U.S. anti-China campaign

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 21 February 2020 - 09:57 PM

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Mezla PigDog, on 21 February 2020 - 05:17 PM, said:

Our chief exec at work sent a message to everyone asking us to avoid non-essential travel due to coronavirus. The message ends with "If you have questions ask your line manager". We line managers have been asking for a week what our executives define as "essential" and the answer seems to be "You decide". Helpful.

Do they also ask you to avoid non-essential travel for the seasonal flu?

[Imperial Historian]

Kanese S, on 21 February 2020 - 06:36 PM, said:

Morgoth, on 21 February 2020 - 09:53 AM, said:

Hand waving the terrible treatment of the Uighurs as a CIA conspiracy is rather disgusting. I understand pushing back against the racism, but to go so far in the other direction as to defend what is undeniably a brutal and repressive regime is not a reasonable answer.

The CIA is not some world encompassing supervillain. The Uighurs are being mass incarcerated.

No, they really aren't.

No, the UN did not report China has ‘massive internment camps’ for Uighur Muslims

China detaining millions of Uyghurs? Serious problems with claims by US-backed NGO and far-right researcher ‘led by God’ against Beijing

What the Media Is Getting Wrong about China, Uyghurs and Conflict in Xinjiang

Xinjiang and Uyghurs — What You’re Not Being Told

Latest set of rumors about Xinjiang refuted

Western double standards on Xinjiang busted

The Biggest Lie Of 2019: That China Is Putting Muslims In “Concentration Camps”

U.S. public gets fake news about China’s alleged anti-Muslim campaign

Allegedly ‘missing’ Uyghurs found living normally

Tracking down relocated Uygur graves in China's Xinjiang

China Focus: Unveil the truth of Xinjiang vocational, education centers

Xinjiang trainees graduate

Most of What We Hear About China Is Red Scare, Yellow Peril Propaganda

Xinjiang scores victories in the war on poverty

Nearly 100 scholars, religious leaders in Xinjiang refute Pompeo with joint letter

Muslims enjoy freedom in Xinjiang: China Islamic Association

Over 11,000 Chinese Muslims from Xinjiang proceed to Saudi Arabia for Hajj

China launches anti-poverty drive in restive Xinjiang

Joint Statement on Xinjiang at Third Committee at United Nations [UN]

China Invites Foreign Diplomats, Agencies to Visit Xinjiang Training Centres

Pakistani diplomat narrates visit to China's Xinjiang

Behind the U.S. anti-China campaign

https://amp.theguard...hur-prison-camp

https://www.aljazeer...5004212642.html

I am not an expert in China, or a journalist. I do however trust that journalists at reputed organisations such as the guardian and al jazeera are and can do there job and critically assess evidence such as these leaks and are highly unlikely to be stooges for the CIA.

Sure the US may be exploiting and inflating these accusations, but the fact that china has built mass re-education camps is clearly acknowledged by the government. And the papers make clear that detention in these camps is nor voluntary.

[Morgoth]

Amnesty International, another CIA front, also released a major investigation on the Uighur’s. Thankfully we have these serious and well established news sites to tell us how all that is wrong.

[Macros]

Anecdotally I was in Beijing two years ago and the level of surveillance beggars belief.

Also saw the black vans rock up outside someone's house one night and drag a guy screaming from his family

[Mezla PigDog]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 21 February 2020 - 07:12 PM, said:

Mezla PigDog, on 21 February 2020 - 05:17 PM, said:

Our chief exec at work sent a message to everyone asking us to avoid non-essential travel due to coronavirus. The message ends with "If you have questions ask your line manager". We line managers have been asking for a week what our executives define as "essential" and the answer seems to be "You decide". Helpful.

Do they also ask you to avoid non-essential travel for the seasonal flu?

I kind of agree on your take, kind of disagree. I was thinking back to swine flu and we had a lot more data about who it was killing - gender, age, preexisting conditions were all out there. I read the WHO bulletins on it and have been with this, it's not as easy to draw conclusions. It's certainly not going away any time soon now though. I am more inclined to think that we're all going to get it now than I was a few weeks back.