[Traveller]

D, on 08 January 2020 - 08:01 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 08 January 2020 - 07:45 PM, said:

Seeing the kind of discussion just the start of the book has already instigated makes me happy. It takes you back to the incessant debates we had when the series was young. So many crazy theories.

I can't wait to get to Kruppe's hanging corpse-sacks fever dream

Ha, Humility has no place in Kruppe's life, remember that!

I'm finding everything about Kruppe.. glorious. Absolute pleasure to read, and steals every scene. Love it when his voice changes when shit get serious; kind of like Yoda going from 'Mine, mine!' to 'You will be... you will be..' in Empire.

Little nuggets so far... I love the mention of Icarium and his machine in Majesty Hall, which names the Daru seasons. And Rakes alarm at hearing the new year as being Moon's Tears - and then recounting when he last met him. All totally meaningless until you've read the later books.

Quick Ben is such a drama queen in this book. The Dujek/Whiskeyjack plan still has me confused.

But yes it's good to be debating all this again - we've all read and reread before, but it's been a while and quite a lot has changed since then.

[Abyss]

Zerv, on 07 January 2020 - 08:37 PM, said:

D, on 07 January 2020 - 06:02 PM, said:

...

It works, I suppose, though I question how much the difference really matters between a rebelling Malaz army attacking Lether and Kolanse versus a loyal one. What would have happened differently if the opposing forces were not deceived and knew already Tavore was doing it at ST's behest, and so on? I guess attack Shadowthrone directly? Or is it just a matter of needing to act out the Sorry affair because it was the only way to get Laseen to piss off The Host and make the soldiers/WJ/Dujek want to rebel?

As much as I like this, it still doesn't explain why Shadowthrone would be remarking that Laseen will never be able to track Sorry down if he is in fact counting on her to do just that. Cotillion and soon-to-be-possessed Sorry are the only ones there, so he has no obvious reason to lie.
Although, a rather bewildering detail in GotM is that it becomes clear in a Sorry PoV quite late in the book that Cotillion is unaware of Paran having been brought back, despite Shadowthrone finding Paran at Hood's Gates and being talked out of stopping the resurrection (i.e., Shadowthrone obviously knows but didn't tell Cotillion for some reason). Apsalar also states in DG that Dancer trusted Kellanved, but Cotillion doesn't necessarily trust Shadowthrone. So I suppose one might go further down the rabbit hole and wonder to what extent Shadowthrone and Cotillion withhold information from each other and/or have separate schemes in some cases etc. (Though they obviously have the same major goals).

The trite explanation for the ST / Cots conversation is that the CG or any god with an interest in keeping the CG chained could be listening. It's a reasonable explanation for what would otherwise be a GotMism.

ST and Cot's agendas deviating is a running thing for the first few books. Again it could be a red herring for observing ascendants to hide the actual extent of their plans and coordination., or a reflection of ST's sheer intermittent madness and Cot's attempts to alleviate some of the consequences of their plans. As far as i can recall, they never actually conflict .

Paran becoming MoD was not foreseen by anyone as far as i can recall. In a later book ST even gives Paran hell for interfereing.

Macros, on 07 January 2020 - 08:44 PM, said:

About 85 pages in.

One thing I've noticed in all my rereads and it always bugs me.

When Tatt's is surveying her quarters just after taking Hairlock, she think not much to have gathered up in 219 years of life.

It's year 9 of Lassens reign, the prologue is not long before her assumption of the throne. So the in the riots she's 210.
She was part of a rookie cadre that lost control?
Rookie at 200+ years old.

Minor bugaboo, but it's always caught me

Some GotMishm there re her age i think. IIRC the Mouse was Tattersail's first 'command' of a mage cadre and she fails utterly.

champ, on 07 January 2020 - 10:43 PM, said:

My biggest question for the beginning of ST/Cots scheme is why now? ...

The CG's plans in Genabackis and Leth are taking off. 7C is cooking a rebllion. The FA are getting up to no good in Kolanse. All kinds of world-wide shit was going to happen if steps weren't taken.

Or....

Quote

Cotillion seemed to nod, then he cleared his throat and said, “It’ll take time.”

An amused note entered Ammanas’s reply. “And have we time? True vengeance needs the slow, careful stalking of the victim. Have you forgotten the pain she once delivered us? Laseen’s back is against the wall already. She might fall without our help. Where would be the satisfaction in that?”

Cotillion’s response was cool and dry. “You’ve always underestimated the Empress. Hence our present circumstances . . . No.” He gestured at the fisher-girl. “We’ll need this one. Laseen’s raised the ire of Moon’s Spawn, and that’s a hornet’s nest if ever there was one. The timing is perfect.”

Pearls, on 08 January 2020 - 07:11 PM, said:

I've always taken Shadowthrone discussing plans re: Sorry as sarcastic. That is, any implication that Laseen won't be able to figure it out is meant to be flat out wrong or a joke. Shadowthrone and Cotillion have known each other a long time, so it's possible they speak casually. The reason I think so is the method. If taken directly, the plan is hilariously bad. If you can go around possessing people, why do you need to draw so much attention to a tiny fishing village by murdering everyone there? It's a goddamn fishing village. Why on earth would Laseen care about a missing girl in a tiny village in Itko Kan? But a carpet of gore draws attention, and sure enough, the bait was taken. At least it feels like bait. To what ends, precisely, I don't know.

Macros, on 08 January 2020 - 08:05 PM, said:

I agree completely about the opening.
It's farcical as a subterfuge, just have the ship vanish in a storm and then she can rock up to a recruiter further down the coast.

Either it's a scene he always wanted to show the raw power of the hounds, logic be damned, or it's a deliberate bait by ST and cots

It wasn't just a village it was a regiment and travelers on the road and a village, and the Hounds were a known agent of Shadow. In theory one possessed girl getting clear just in time should have been missed.
Either that was the point as a false lead, or that was the actual intention and it failed.

I go with the first option but cannot discount the second.

[Abyss]

Y'know, in retrospect Rigga pretty much got everything right...

Quote

Rigga’s fingers snagged tighter in the girl’s hair. “Across the sea the Empress has driven her knife into virgin soil. The blood now comes in a tide and it’ll sweep you under, child, if you’re not careful. They’ll put a sword in your hand, they’ll give you a fine horse, and they’ll send you across that sea. But a shadow will embrace your soul. Now, listen! Bury this deep! Rigga will preserve you because we are linked, you and I. But it is all I can do, understand? Look to the Lord spawned in Darkness; his is the hand that shall free you, though he’ll know it not—”

[Traveller]

It's far more noticable to me this time how Paran is chosen/shaped to become MoD.

His return to life through Oponn's intervention, trip into Dragnipur and link to the Hounds all add some early elements of ascendancy- but primary to these is his absolute determination to stop being used by the gods as a tool after Oponn's interference. It makes him an ideal arbitrator of the deck - someone who cannot be bought or used by any of the gods or ascendents with offers of power. His musings are all about his single mindedness to make his own path.

Like the ideal ruler being the person who doesn't want the power, an ideal MoD would be someone who, having learned from several experiences, is determined to never again be a pawn. Also, finally recognising the wisdom of the words from the start - don't get noticed. He looks back later on Whiskeyjacks words; I think even Rake repeats something similar to him.

Riggas is a tragic tale - she kept the souls of her 3 husbands and 2 sons at home within candles; when Cots takes Sorry she holds her and protects her from harm until Mallet finds her, weakening but still wrapped around Sorry as a shield, until Mallet helps her to heal the psychological trauma.

I believe the main, overriding theme of mbotf is 'compassion' - I've already found at least three direct uses in gotm so far.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 08 January 2020 - 10:47 PM

[Macros]

No sale Abyss, the slaughter is still unnecessary. Slip her in to recruitment anywhere, the only thing it serves is to suggest that God's don't give a fuck about mortals, so killing a few hundred means nothing to them.


ETA, sorry, misread your post Abyss, you're agreeing with the false lead thing

This post has been edited by Macros: 09 January 2020 - 12:47 PM

[Pearls]

"You've always underestimated the Empress. Hence our present circumstances . . ."

I've always sort of wondered what Dancer meant by this line. What present circumstances? Godhood? That's quite the thing to complain about. Perhaps the need to do...whatever they need to do? Not quite sure what Surly accomplished that makes them need to revise anything. Maybe this is just a cheeky throwaway line. Night of Knives makes the rereading of this scene extra ponderous.

Edit: No idea what happened to my color there.

This post has been edited by Pearls: 09 January 2020 - 09:29 PM

[Abyss]

Paran to Lorn in Ch 1... "“The Kanese are cooperative folk.”"

Heh... large chunks of ICE's PtA suggest the opposite of that.

..and just a little later..... HELLO STAFF SARGEANT ARAGAN!!!!!!

...look for this to become a running joke in this reread...
...and oh, hey.... another old friend...

Quote

A lame mule, the last sentinel overseeing the refuse of an exodus, stood dumbly nearby, ankle-deep in a rice paddy. It spared Paran a single forlorn glance as he rode past.

...and a fun fact about Topper i had utterly forgotten...

Quote

"...Mine was the hand that took the life of Unta’s royal line, king, queen, sons, and daughters.”

“And cousins, second cousins, third—”

“Expunging all hope, indeed. Such was my duty as a Claw of unsurpassed skill..."

[Aptorian]

P. 191

First mention of the infamous Phoenix Inn that gave name to our offtopic forum.

[Aptorian]

Another ten pages in and it strikes me that Erikson is constantly introducing more characters. Barely a couple pages go by before he introduces new viewpoints, new factions.

I can see why some would feel overwhelmed as a first time reader.

[Aptorian]

Another observation, the gods/ascendants in this book seem far more powerful than I remember, they seem to be able to manipulate time and human mindsets.

In choosing Paran it's described that his whole life is examined and reordered somehow. Now Oponn is shown altering Rallick Nom's assassination scheme in a blink of an eye.

Like Hood's supposed influence on Whiskeyjack, it suggests that free will is just imagination in Gardens of the Moon.

[Traveller]

Aptorian, on 10 January 2020 - 06:37 AM, said:

Another ten pages in and it strikes me that Erikson is constantly introducing more characters. Barely a couple pages go by before he introduces new viewpoints, new factions.

I can see why some would feel overwhelmed as a first time reader.

I like the fact that despite appearing in the dramatis personae at the start, the assassin Talo Krafar is killed at the end of his introduction.

And then, although it seems like an unnecessary aside to introduce him in the first place, it turns out his murder atop the tower, and his blood, resanctifies the temple and brings K'rul back.

I like the way small ripples like this spread to become big waves elsewhere.

The ascendents and gods do seem more powerful here, but only when things are on their own terms, in their own realms. When any of them get pulled into the real by humans, they seem far more vulnerable.

The whole first quarter of the book builds the Hounds up, almost as these unstoppable killing machines. Which makes Parans wounding of gear more impressive, and totally sets up how strong Rake is when he almost casually kills two of them.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 10 January 2020 - 08:12 AM

[Aptorian]

Well, twice it's mentioned that Paran is to be used like a sword, then Oponn sanctifies his sword or something. Gives him credibility versus the Hound.

Makes you wonder though. Could he have become a Mortal Sword/Knight if hadn't been chosen to be a new Master of the Deck?

A Mortal Sword of Luck?

I can't remember if unaligned gods have Mortal Swords.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 10 January 2020 - 09:06 AM

[Traveller]

'His brush with Ascendants seemed to have given him a new sensitivity..'

At the end of the book (I've just finished it) after his conversation with Cots, Paran finds himself changed. He even hears Tattersail in his head when he thinks about her.

I think that as soon as his life was saved at Hoods gate, he was fair game - his character and actions chose his future, but as he was very anti Gods at that point he was unsuitable for any of them. If he'd been a fighter or priest or something his path would have been different; as it is he ends up more like the Azath - unaligned but with his own powers.

That bit at Hoods gate still intrigues me. Who is it that is chosen to go through instead of him - close to him, but also a 'meaningless death?' Is that a foreshadow of Felisin?

[Gorefest]

It's either Felisin or his dad. I don't think it was ever made completely clear. I would like to think it was Felisin as that would imply some really cool foreshadowing. But then again Heboric early on in DG seems to hint at it being his dad, which could also make sense (the bit where he says that when Paran disappeared, his dad sort of lost the will to live and withered away).

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 10 January 2020 - 01:05 PM

[Aptorian]

I also remember the conclusion being his dad.

[Gorefest]

For the record, I don't think at that stage SE and ICE had decided yet that daddy Ganoes would be a Talon (possibly even a leading figure or even the head of the Talons). I'm not actually sure that they ever firmly had that in mind, or whether it was just a fan theory that they liked the sound of. Events in tCG strongly hint at this to be true, but I very much doubt it was on their radar as far back as GoTM or DG/MoI. But hey ho.

[Macros]

Reading on.

And, as other, I'm reading it and wondering how the hell I kept up with half of this.

In reality I simply didn't, couldn't. No wonder new readers give up.
I know I did the first time.

But what I am finding this time is I'm actively watching for GotMisms and timeline gaffs. Not maliciously, just interesting to see if it's exclusive to this book (don't mention Her kid in try, don't mention her kid) or if it's just a case for f spiralling story and timeline is not completely manageable.

Anyway, just after the dinner with Lorn, Tatt's is walking home, and in the space of like 2 pages there's a direct contradiction.

The Mouse was 9 years ago, stated several times by all parties, Tatt's is musing on it, it's the action that caused her to cash out of the officers and get shipped to the 2nd,
"That attachment, those twenty-one years of service, had this night saved her life"

How does 9 years = 20 odd?


Nit picking but Tatt's timeline was a flaw I had always noticed.

[Traveller]

'You're brother disappearing on Genebackis took the life out of your father... so I've heard.' he added, grinning.'

Baudin to Felisin. Sounds like that's it then. I kinda like the way Baudin knows, considering who he ends up working for.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 10 January 2020 - 02:10 PM

[Abyss]

Aptorian, on 10 January 2020 - 07:00 AM, said:

Another observation, the gods/ascendants in this book seem far more powerful than I remember, they seem to be able to manipulate time and human mindsets.

In choosing Paran it's described that his whole life is examined and reordered somehow. Now Oponn is shown altering Rallick Nom's assassination scheme in a blink of an eye.

Like Hood's supposed influence on Whiskeyjack, it suggests that free will is just imagination in Gardens of the Moon.

It does set up god/ascendant influence as a major factor, and i suspect it's why some readers are who are offput by GotM refer to 'so many all powerful gods everywhere'.
Of course, they don't make it far enough in the book or the series to see the points where mortals turn the game back on said gods.

Traveller, on 10 January 2020 - 08:08 AM, said:

...

The ascendents and gods do seem more powerful here, but only when things are on their own terms, in their own realms. When any of them get pulled into the real by humans, they seem far more vulnerable.

The whole first quarter of the book builds the Hounds up, almost as these unstoppable killing machines. Which makes Parans wounding of gear more impressive, and totally sets up how strong Rake is when he almost casually kills two of them.

Exactly.

Aptorian, on 10 January 2020 - 09:06 AM, said:

Well, twice it's mentioned that Paran is to be used like a sword, then Oponn sanctifies his sword or something. Gives him credibility versus the Hound.

Makes you wonder though. Could he have become a Mortal Sword/Knight if hadn't been chosen to be a new Master of the Deck?

A Mortal Sword of Luck?

I can't remember if unaligned gods have Mortal Swords.

My thought was that any god can have a Mortal Sword or other human agent if they care to invest the power in them (or are forced to per Feather Witch and the Errant in RG).

Traveller, on 10 January 2020 - 12:22 PM, said:

'His brush with Ascendants seemed to have given him a new sensitivity..'

At the end of the book (I've just finished it) after his conversation with Cots, Paran finds himself changed. He even hears Tattersail in his head when he thinks about her.

I think that as soon as his life was saved at Hoods gate, he was fair game - his character and actions chose his future, but as he was very anti Gods at that point he was unsuitable for any of them. If he'd been a fighter or priest or something his path would have been different; as it is he ends up more like the Azath - unaligned but with his own powers.

That bit at Hoods gate still intrigues me. Who is it that is chosen to go through instead of him - close to him, but also a 'meaningless death?' Is that a foreshadow of Felisin?

Gorefest, on 10 January 2020 - 01:05 PM, said:

It's either Felisin or his dad. I don't think it was ever made completely clear. I would like to think it was Felisin as that would imply some really cool foreshadowing. But then again Heboric early on in DG seems to hint at it being his dad, which could also make sense (the bit where he says that when Paran disappeared, his dad sort of lost the will to live and withered away).

Aptorian, on 10 January 2020 - 01:24 PM, said:

I also remember the conclusion being his dad.

I always thought it was Felisin.

Gorefest, on 10 January 2020 - 01:37 PM, said:

For the record, I don't think at that stage SE and ICE had decided yet that daddy Ganoes would be a Talon (possibly even a leading figure or even the head of the Talons). I'm not actually sure that they ever firmly had that in mind, or whether it was just a fan theory that they liked the sound of. Events in tCG strongly hint at this to be true, but I very much doubt it was on their radar as far back as GoTM or DG/MoI. But hey ho.

Where do you pick up on Daddy Ganoes being Talon?

Traveller, on 10 January 2020 - 02:09 PM, said:

'You're brother disappearing on Genebackis took the life out of your father... so I've heard.' he added, grinning.'

Baudin to Felisin. Sounds like that's it then. I kinda like the way Baudin knows, considering who he ends up working for.

It's extremely clever. I admit in vew of everything that goes down with Felisin, i have never considered that their father was any part of the events related to Paran's resurrection beyond dying offscreen.



...loving this re-read.

[Gorefest]

Abyss, on 10 January 2020 - 03:35 PM, said:

Where do you pick up on Daddy Ganoes being Talon?

In tCG, when Tavore takes the Talon necklace out of the family box. It usually passes from generation to generation, from what I understand from snippets from Baudin etc. Guess it could also be her mum, of course. Or both. But clearly it is a family heirloom.