[Lady Bliss]

I agree QT and I’ve been just as upset. What I have been reading keeps bringing me to tears. I had called my congressman earlier this week to add my name to the list of Americans demanding a ceasefire, but I have little faith of the US government doing the right thing at this time. Any support I had left of Biden has also evaporated. I don’t want it to happen mind you, but if an impeachment inquiry into him over his endorsement of war crimes was introduced, I can’t imagine how he could defend against it. The US government is deplorable.

[QuickTidal]

Lady Bliss, on 28 October 2023 - 12:50 PM, said:

I agree QT and I’ve been just as upset. What I have been reading keeps bringing me to tears. I had called my congressman earlier this week to add my name to the list of Americans demanding a ceasefire, but I have little faith of the US government doing the right thing at this time. Any support I had left of Biden has also evaporated. I don’t want it to happen mind you, but if an impeachment inquiry into him over his endorsement of war crimes was introduced, I can’t imagine how he could defend against it. The US government is deplorable.

Yeah any gains Biden made with young people is gone now. Like you want people to choose between a multiple criminal racist like trump or someone who has actively supported genocide? There’s going to find another way now even if that means not voting.

After reading about the US involvement in this conflict going back to the 50’s, none of this surprises me. This is status quo. The only president in history since the Nakba to truly hold Israel’s feet to the fire over their deliberate war crimes was Kennedy I think? Even Carter stuck to the line of Israeli support. Hell, Obama was steward while all three post-2nd Intifada wars in Gaza occurred and did nothing even though he claimed it was important to him.

[Tiste Simeon]

Why did the US vote against a ceasefire? I know about how Zionist a lot of the powerful are and all that but the country is constantly trying to project a "hooray the perennial good guys are here to help" and this very much goes against that. Like it makes no sense.

[Lady Bliss]

Because Israel lines the pockets of a lot of our politicians.

Satanyahu has now declared that this is their second independence war, which from his actions means extermination of the Palestinians and stealing what little land they have left. He’s also severing ties with anyone that says he’s gone too far.

[Abyss]

So we're clear: I'm against everything that is happening now. The rest of the historical debate, maybe some other time. This is just wrong.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Quote

Musk, [...] owner of most of the active satellites orbiting Earth [...] said he would use Starlink[...] to provide service to “internationally recognized aid organizations in Gaza.” [...] Israel communications minister Shlomo Karhi responded that “Israel will use all means at its disposal to fight this.”

Israel to Fight Elon Musk Over Giving Starlink Internet to Gaza Aid Orgs (thedailybeast.com)

... so they're going to nuke Elon Musk? Try to blow his satellites out of the sky space?

Hack one of his humanoid robots to strangle him to death?... or perhaps just hack his 'self-driving' Tesla....

Mixed feelings about this.

[Lady Bliss]

Republicans and Trump are now flat out attacking Palestinians and Muslims. Things are about to get really ugly in the US.

[Maark Abbott]

Lady Bliss, on 28 October 2023 - 09:54 PM, said:

Because Israel lines the pockets of a lot of our politicians.

Satanyahu has now declared that this is their second independence war, which from his actions means extermination of the Palestinians and stealing what little land they have left.

It was ever thus.

[Maark Abbott]

QuickTidal, on 30 October 2023 - 12:13 PM, said:

A history of some non-violent resistance the Palestinian people have engaged in over the years.


- From late 1987-1988, Palestinians in Gaza rose up in a series of non-violent demonstrations, strikes, boycotts, and protests. They killed 0 Israelis. They were unarmed. In response, Israel killed 142 Palestinians in Gaza.
- In 2005 Palestinians organized a non-violent movement, boycott, Divestment & Sanctions (BDS). In response, Israel said the movements true goal is to destroy Israel, called the BDS supporters antisemitic, and punished its founder with the threat of displacement.
- In 2008 & 2009, the residents of Ni'lin in the West Bank, protested non-violently every week against the expansion of the separation barrier that was confiscating their land. In response, Israel killed Ahmed Moussa on July 29th, 2008; Israel killed Yousef Aqel Srour on June 5th 2009.
- In 2003, unarmed Palestinians in Bil'in organized weekly protests against the barrier that was confiscating their land. In 2009 Israel killed Bassem Abu Rahmah with a shot in the chest (tear gas at point blank range); in 2010 they killed Jawaher Abu Rahmah, also with a tear gun cannister that caused an inhalation death.
- In 2011 in Nabi Saleh (West Bank), Palestinians organized weekly protests against the barrier that was confiscating their land, including an ancient natural spring. Israel killed Mustafah Tamimi with a tear gun cannister point blank to the face.
- Beginning in March 2018, tens of thousands of Gazans marched to the border fence, unarmed, demanding the right of return. Israel killed 223 Palestinians & Israeli snipers left some 6000+ Palestinians with life-changing wounds. Not a single Israeli experienced any major wounds or any physical harm.

These incidents represent a tiny fraction of the Palestinian attempts at non-violent resistance. In not ONE of these cases were ANY Israeli soldiers, settlers, or people held to any account over these Palestinian deaths or injuries.

In the vast majority of cases of Palestinian non-violent resistance, Israel responds with lethal and disproportionate violence.

It's stuff like this that demonstrates that it is a genocide. The violence is always lethal, and ALWAYS massively disproportionate.

And, I hate to be the one to say it, but of all the countries to put a people behind walls and then systemically murder them? Is this not the ONE COUNTRY that should just not???

[Gorefest]

Maark Abbott, on 30 October 2023 - 12:52 PM, said:

And, I hate to be the one to say it, but of all the countries to put a people behind walls and then systemically murder them? Is this not the ONE COUNTRY that should just not???

To be fair, they are the Chosen People. If your god is better than other Gods, you're allowed more leeway for being a d*ck.

[Abyss]

I'm going to suggest, strongly, that comments stick to Israel-Gaza-etc and stay away from religion.

[worry]

All three religions have holy texts that feature awful stuff that can be -- if you're not a true believer, I suppose -- ascribed to the absolute worst in human tribalism. And all three have teachings that urge human beings to transcend their basest impulses and rise to our highest potentials. And they aren't the only three faiths that feature any of that, high or low. Extremists of all creeds tend towards the low, because therein lie power and domination. There's no 'organized religion' -- which I'm using here in its most political sense, not merely to differentiate from new age spiritualism -- that doesn't have oceans of blood on its hands.

[worry]

Well great.

[Werthead]

QuickTidal, on 30 October 2023 - 04:38 PM, said:

Also, apropos of nothing on that score, of the three Abrahamic religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism), only one holy book speaks at length about the other two religions and does so in a conciliatory "We're all worshiping the same god, the prophet and details just differ"manner and that's the Quran. The Torah apparently (I could be wrong, but I heard a jewish guy speaking on this to a Christian about it) tells its people to kill "idol worshippers" and non-believers? Like that's fucked up.

To be fair, the Torah was limited by causality on that point. It's hard for the Torah to speak about Christianity or Islam, or for the Bible to talk about Islam, when they didn't exist yet.

Those religions have issued further proclamations/statements on other religions over the millennia, of wildly varying character.

[Cause]

QuickTidal, on 30 October 2023 - 04:38 PM, said:

Gorefest, on 30 October 2023 - 04:18 PM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 30 October 2023 - 12:52 PM, said:

And, I hate to be the one to say it, but of all the countries to put a people behind walls and then systemically murder them? Is this not the ONE COUNTRY that should just not???

To be fair, they are the Chosen People. If your god is better than other Gods, you're allowed more leeway for being a d*ck.

The amount of actual Israeli's I've seen video of commenting something like this and mean it....astonishes me.

Also, apropos of nothing on that score, of the three Abrahamic religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism), only one holy book speaks at length about the other two religions and does so in a conciliatory "We're all worshiping the same god, the prophet and details just differ"manner and that's the Quran. The Torah apparently (I could be wrong, but I heard a jewish guy speaking on this to a Christian about it) tells its people to kill "idol worshippers" and non-believers? Like that's fucked up.

The Torah doesn't speak about Christians' or Muslims because it predates their existence by over 1000 years or so.

As a non-believer I view the Torah and the Jewish religion thorugh perhaps a cynical lense but ultimately I would argue that the meme of an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent god was more powerful than the ideas of most the pre-existing religions and hence it evolved into Christianity and Islam and is now combined the predominant form of worship on earth (with jews being a neglible amount now becuase of the rule against proselytizing). Judaism itself is arguable evolved from zoroastrianism which perhaps first evovled the concept of god as most of us understood it but had an equal and opposite (evil) to god. Judaism's contribution was that God has no equal and all suffering is from him too, we just dont understand why. Christianity changed it back a little in that besides Jesus himself one of the biggest differences between Judaism and Christianity is the concept of the Devil. A force responsible for evil in opposition to god but who remains subservient to him. Islam I believe also follows this model fairly similiarly. In Judaism Angels have no free will of their own and more like the expression of gods will made manifest. Speaking to Christians I am always amazed how few people are aware of this difference.

Back to the point at hand, Judaism prohibits proselytizing but commands to love the convert (we can discuss). Judaism says any nation that follows the 7 noahide laws:

Not to worship idols.
Not to curse God.
Not to commit murder.
Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
Not to steal.
Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.
To establish courts of justice

Are following their own covenants with god and are to be respected. Christianity and Islam would both I believe pass quite easily. Now again through my lense of a non believer I would argue that the covenant jews have with god as the chosen people with their 613 commandemtns to follow is designed to create an in group and and out group. The religion doesn't really care about the latter. Like a cult would establish rules to prevent the loss of members (when does a cult become a relgion?). Kashrut makes it hard to eat meals with non-jews and makes missionary work from outside groups harder for example. The command to kill non-believers refers to Jewish apostates. The command to kill idol-worshippers should also be understood to mean the killing of Jewish idol worshippers or people who try to come into Judaism and convert Jewish people. Its not a command to launch a holy war across the sea and root out idol worshippers on other continents and kill them. The in group vs out group thing is a primary reason for Anti-semitism over the past 2000 years. The torah forbids usury but it again it means between Jews. Christianity adopted the rule but Jews could charge interest to non-jews and so were a vital tool in Europe for essentially allowing banking to exist but created resentment.

The Torah and Judaism and by extension Christianity and Islam which all keep it as cannon one should remember are based on a 3000 year old morality of a dessert worshippers. When we look to it for guidance in modern problems we should never expect to get reasonable advice. The torah however cant and isnt used to advocate for genocide of muslims.

This post has been edited by Cause: 30 October 2023 - 06:29 PM

[Mentalist]

QuickTidal, on 30 October 2023 - 06:57 PM, said:

Speaking on the fact that Israel seems to be openly and blatantly ignoring the UN Resolution to ceasefire (reiterated today by Netanyahu, because he can't apparently NOT be a monster) and seems to have committed clear and definitive war crimes....

It turns out that since the inception of the UNHRC (United Nations Human Rights Council) in 2006 that Israel has had 45 condemnation resolutions levelled at it...this accounts for nearly HALF of the total condemnation resolutions that the UN has issued for ALL the countries in that time.

From 1967 to 1989 the United Nations Security Council adopted 131 Security Council Resolutions against Israel, which meant they made an explicit determination of a threat, breach of the peace, or act of aggression.

This kind of thing makes me wonder why the UN is so toothless when it comes to this stuff. Country commits war crimes and gets away with it? Why? How?


Another insidious thing occurring inside the Settlers regions of the place is that American companies are offering settlements to jews wiling to go live in Israel. This means that company steals the homes of Palestinians, claims they own it, and then rents it to settlers who will go live there. So you get these diatribes by the settlers being like "Well I didn't do this, the OWNER wants jews here, and if I wasn't here someone else would be" ignoring the fact that said home was intentionally stolen from Palestinians. Imaging living in someone else's home and pretending to be blameless cause the person who "owns stole" it is an Israel-attached American corporation...how would you sleep at night?

UN is toothless by design, b/c it doesn't have it's own army to enforce any of its resolutions.

It's less of a proto world government and more of a discussion club based around common principles. Sovereignty being the key one.

[worry]

I think Abyss's point was to not to turn this thread into Judaism-gawking, which seems like a fair request. Not that it -- like any religion -- is above critique, but historically speaking singling out Jewish folks is not a great look, and can get real ugly real fast. And even if that's not likely to happen here (and to be clear, I don't think it would), it's still kind of othering. I give everyone here the benefit of the doubt, and maybe it's to some degree a product of the secular view of any deep adherence to supernaturalism as absurd, but it's just kind of off to use the opportunity of Israel's genocide against Palestinians to have what might appear to be a "You know what's weird about Judaism...." detour. I don't think it was there, per se, but it's good not even to inch towards that. I hope that makes sense without giving anyone offense.

[Cause]

You realize the disproportionate UN resolutions against Israel speak to a bias in the UN more than anything.

There is only one country in the world singled out as a threat to women’s right for example. That country is Israel. Saudia Arabia and Iran voted.

This amongst many other reasons is why Israel doesn’t take a lot of what the UN says seriously.

[Nicodimas]

Mentalist, on 30 October 2023 - 07:51 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 30 October 2023 - 06:57 PM, said:

Speaking on the fact that Israel seems to be openly and blatantly ignoring the UN Resolution to ceasefire (reiterated today by Netanyahu, because he can't apparently NOT be a monster) and seems to have committed clear and definitive war crimes....

It turns out that since the inception of the UNHRC (United Nations Human Rights Council) in 2006 that Israel has had 45 condemnation resolutions levelled at it...this accounts for nearly HALF of the total condemnation resolutions that the UN has issued for ALL the countries in that time.

From 1967 to 1989 the United Nations Security Council adopted 131 Security Council Resolutions against Israel, which meant they made an explicit determination of a threat, breach of the peace, or act of aggression.

This kind of thing makes me wonder why the UN is so toothless when it comes to this stuff. Country commits war crimes and gets away with it? Why? How?


Another insidious thing occurring inside the Settlers regions of the place is that American companies are offering settlements to jews wiling to go live in Israel. This means that company steals the homes of Palestinians, claims they own it, and then rents it to settlers who will go live there. So you get these diatribes by the settlers being like "Well I didn't do this, the OWNER wants jews here, and if I wasn't here someone else would be" ignoring the fact that said home was intentionally stolen from Palestinians. Imaging living in someone else's home and pretending to be blameless cause the person who "owns stole" it is an Israel-attached American corporation...how would you sleep at night?

UN is toothless by design, b/c it doesn't have it's own army to enforce any of its resolutions.

It's less of a proto world government and more of a discussion club based around common principles. Sovereignty being the key one.

Yea I would say UN is the old system too. It served its purpose for sure.More reliance is being moved into Brics for instance over time...

I got laughed out of here for suggesting this would slowly replace this older power structure. However these economic alliances will have more way teeth and are gaining power.Not quite established to the same power at all..yet. Brics will determine the new (unipolar?) superpower in 15 years, watch for it.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 30 October 2023 - 08:39 PM

[Maark Abbott]

QuickTidal, on 30 October 2023 - 09:41 PM, said:

Cause, on 30 October 2023 - 07:59 PM, said:

You realize the disproportionate UN resolutions against Israel speak to a bias in the UN more than anything.

There is only one country in the world singled out as a threat to women's right for example. That country is Israel. Saudia Arabia and Iran voted.

This amongst many other reasons is why Israel doesn't take a lot of what the UN says seriously.

Yeah I'm sure it's bias and not…you know…war crimes.

As long as the US backs Israel in committing war crimes, they probably feel safe in doing it because no one is going to meaningfully stand up to the US.