[amphibian]

It's a very wise idea to steer very far from assumptions of mono-culture anywhere in these complex discussions.

The Orthodox Jews protesting outside my work window on the steps of the NY State Education Building because they don't want to teach science to their kids are not the same people as the Orthodox Jews working with me to provide special education improvements in science (and other things). There's different organized groups, sub cultures, objectives, ways of going about things.

Same for the Jewish donors that political parties have hooked into - there's some that are ultra pro Israel, some that are not, some that are pro two state solutions etc. Same for the Muslims, same for any large collection of people.

[Chance]

Sometimes I think of commenting on the matters in this thread, then I realize that no it won't do any good. For some reason the Palestinian conflict is political and ideological, very much not rational for a great part of the world.

There are much worse stuff going on in the world and they are basically ignored for years see syria (ongoing since 2011, aprox 600 000 dead), sudan (ongoing for 20 years estimated dead 80 000 - 400 000 no one really knows) or the ongoing starvation catastrophies in some other parts of africa. There is at least one much worse "hot" war going on but it immidiatly became a sideshow because Israel and Palestine matters to a lot of people. There are much higher deathtolls daily in ukraine but because the industrial slaughter is mostly done to conscripted ill-educated and poor russians who cares not their goverment and certainly no one else. A bit exhaggerated but not much

I don't think I need to point out how hypocritical this make the discussion on Israel - Palestine feel to some of us.

This post has been edited by Chance: 31 October 2023 - 07:38 AM

[Maark Abbott]

I don't really think a ground war between combatant sides is comparable to an active and purposeful genocide, but maybe that's just me. Not to downplay the horror of what's happening in Ukraine at all, but it's not a reasonable comparison to make.

[Chance]

Maark Abbott, on 31 October 2023 - 07:43 AM, said:

I don't really think a ground war between combatant sides is comparable to an active and purposeful genocide, but maybe that's just me. Not to downplay the horror of what's happening in Ukraine at all, but it's not a reasonable comparison to make.

Gods I was about to write my actual thoughts on this reply, but I succeded my sanity check. Deleted a long post on the value of human life and won't reply again to this thread until temporary insanity once again strikes me.

This post has been edited by Chance: 31 October 2023 - 08:15 AM

[Maark Abbott]

Chance, on 31 October 2023 - 08:12 AM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 31 October 2023 - 07:43 AM, said:

I don't really think a ground war between combatant sides is comparable to an active and purposeful genocide, but maybe that's just me. Not to downplay the horror of what's happening in Ukraine at all, but it's not a reasonable comparison to make.

Gods I was about to write my actual thoughts on this reply, but I succeded my sanity check. Deleted a long post on the value of human life and won't reply again to this thread until temporary insanity once again strikes me.

I mean, you opened with 'I think there are much worse things going on in the world' in response to a literal genocide. You can't have expected that would go over well.

[worry]

That may be a fair point, I dunno.

I don't think I've ever sugarcoated what I think of U.S. foreign policy, either historically or currently, and I certainly have never in my life expressed a positive sentiment about Europe (aside from Ireland, on occasion), and that's before we get to examining its imperial, colonial legacy. At my work, we are trying our best to get a family out of Sudan by the skin of their teeth. It's a humanitarian disaster for sure. Palestine isn't the only genocide happening right now, though it might be unique in that its happening to a population that's 50% children, not sure.


What I can say is that my president didn't fly to Khartoum to hug the leader of those doing the genocide. He didn't fly to Azerbaijan to pledge financial and material support to those starving Armenians to death. He definitely did do this with Israel, he's been a proud participant in nakedly manufacturing consent for the slaughter, and he's far from the only one. It's been transparent and it's been sickening. I think we're also seeing a huge generational divide on this whole apparatus's ability to function. We usually think of generation gaps one at a time, but the gap between Silent Gen/Boomers and Younger Millennials/Gen Z is a chasm, and the whole 'anti-woke' industry is a testament to how scary this is to established power. I say that to also say that there are still blind spots and double standards etc. The same movement hasn't sprung up about saving Yemen -- outcry for sure, but not a movement.


Ultimately thought I think it's clear why this has so much attention:

• It's very obvious what's happening is deadly, brutal collective punishment, and it's setting off many of the same alarms that the post-9/11 energy did.
• That punishment is being meted out by the fascist wing, currently in power, of an apartheid state against one of the largest, most densely populated concentration camps on earth.
• Its very existence is made possible by 'Western' powers, particularly the United States, which has pledged full backing of this absolute nightmare.
• These same powers are, as mentioned, nakedly attempting to manufacture consent for it in the most cynical, dictionary definition ways, and people see through it and are in fact disgusted by it.
• People believe they can change the course of this.

That's not exhaustive, and it's not to say I disagree with what you're saying about the world's selective attention. I would say that's an absolute fact. But I don't think that makes the movement against this wrong, or unrighteous -- in the same way I don't think suspicion of Western powers and their motives, the realpolitik involved, in the Ukraine war makes it wrong to oppose Russia's imperial invasion.

[Gorefest]

Abyss, on 30 October 2023 - 05:22 PM, said:

I'm going to suggest, strongly, that comments stick to Israel-Gaza-etc and stay away from religion.

I appreciate the sentiment and understand your intent, but how do you propose doing this when the whole reason why both sides exist and are fighting for this specific plot of land is deeply grounded in religious iconography and justification? That is like talking about the Tiste Andii without mentioning Mother Dark or Rake.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Chance, on 31 October 2023 - 06:27 AM, said:

Sometimes I think of commenting on the matters in this thread, then I realize that no it won't do any good. For some reason the Palestinian conflict is political and ideological, very much not rational for a great part of the world.

[...] There are much higher deathtolls daily in ukraine but because the industrial slaughter is mostly done to conscripted ill-educated and poor russians who cares not their goverment and certainly no one else.

Chance, on 31 October 2023 - 08:12 AM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 31 October 2023 - 07:43 AM, said:

I don't really think a ground war between combatant sides is comparable to an active and purposeful genocide, but maybe that's just me. Not to downplay the horror of what's happening in Ukraine at all, but it's not a reasonable comparison to make.

Gods I was about to write my actual thoughts on this reply, but I succeded my sanity check. Deleted a long post on the value of human life and won't reply again to this thread until temporary insanity once again strikes me.

... to the extent that it's not imaginary, is usually negative? (Kidding: it's complex. Possibly octonion....)

But seriously: you seem to think you're being 'rational' by assuming that all human life has the same intrinsic value, and therefore we should treat the slaughter of Russian soldiers (or at least conscripts? or conscripts who are also 'ill-educated and poor'?) with just as vocal condemnation as the slaughter of Palestinian children? For one, even if we accepted that all human life has the same intrinsic value, it has differing instrumental value---even relative to minimizing human deaths or human suffering. Not killing Russian soldiers will lead to them killing Ukrainians (or do you believe that 'the good guys' should restrict themselves to nonlethal weapons)?

Ultimately, the belief that human life has intrinsic value is not rational. Neither is the belief that if human life is assumed to have intrinsic value, all human life has the same intrinsic value. Even the desire for one's own self-preservation is not fundamentally rational; and while some have treated it as axiomatic, that's clearly not necessary, and not an empirically accurate description of human behavior (with ample examples of sacrificing one's own life in rational pursuit of a goal).

[Maark Abbott]

QuickTidal, on 31 October 2023 - 12:15 PM, said:

and Netanyahu was like "Hey yeah, let's make that guy our security minister!"

IDK man we made someone guilty of massive tax fraud whilst the highest financial minister our highest overall minister, countries will do fucky stuff like that on a dime.

[Maark Abbott]

QuickTidal, on 31 October 2023 - 01:32 PM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 31 October 2023 - 01:12 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 31 October 2023 - 12:15 PM, said:

and Netanyahu was like "Hey yeah, let's make that guy our security minister!"

IDK man we made someone guilty of massive tax fraud whilst the highest financial minister our highest overall minister, countries will do fucky stuff like that on a dime.

While that is terrible...it's not quite "coaxed a follower openly to murder a political figure, and then campaigned for that murderer to be freed" evil like Gvir.

I take your point though.

Oh yeah I'm not trying to conflate severity at all, more than I'm so jaded that "person X has done awful thing Y, let's make them a minister" just doesn't surprise me any more.

[Tiste Simeon]

Maark Abbott, on 31 October 2023 - 10:41 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 31 October 2023 - 01:32 PM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 31 October 2023 - 01:12 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 31 October 2023 - 12:15 PM, said:

and Netanyahu was like "Hey yeah, let's make that guy our security minister!"

IDK man we made someone guilty of massive tax fraud whilst the highest financial minister our highest overall minister, countries will do fucky stuff like that on a dime.

While that is terrible...it's not quite "coaxed a follower openly to murder a political figure, and then campaigned for that murderer to be freed" evil like Gvir.

I take your point though.

Oh yeah I'm not trying to conflate severity at all, more than I'm so jaded that "person X has done awful thing Y, let's make them a minister" just doesn't surprise me any more.

Indeed I think I read recently that one of the Tories was fired because he called for a ceasefire. This is the party that adamantly refused to fire anyone for racism, lying, breaking the ministerial code, the list goes on... But being a decent human being, heck is not even that, doing the right thing for once! Can't have that...

Edit: Found the article I was talking about - BBC News - Paul Bristow: Ministerial aide sacked after call for Israel-Gaza ceasefire
https://www.bbc.co.u...litics-67264814

This post has been edited by Tiste Simeon: 31 October 2023 - 10:52 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Quote

Heavily armed criminal militias[...] had been terrorizing civilians [...] Now their sorcerer was in custody, and his talismans were broken and burned. [...] The president, who had been in a precarious state politically, got a much-needed popularity boost.

[...] What mattered was what people believed. Beliefs, true or false, rational or irrational, shape politics.

Almost exactly three years ago, I saw a similar spectacle unfold on television as the president faced a tough reelection bid. Early returns suggested that his time was up, but his chief spiritual adviser, known for warning the public about the dangers of “a demon prince in the form of a many-headed dragon,” [...] marshaled spiritual forces to save the embattled incumbent, calling on “angels of Africa” and denouncing the “demonic confederacies” who were channeling satanic forces in their quest to remove him from power.

Except this time, the spectacle was unfolding not in Madagascar but in the United States—and the speech was from Paula White, the [...] Trump had handpicked to lead prayers both at his inauguration and at his ill-fated rally on January 6[...]

[...] most of us who professionally study human societies—or try to explain political systems in the press—have a severe case of rationality bias: We think of ourselves as purely rational agents, and we too often wrongly assume that everyone else thinks about the world the same way we do. This assumption distorts our understanding of how people actually make decisions, why they behave the way they do, and, by extension, how and why big social and political changes take place.

Political Analysis Needs More Witchcraft (msn.com)

[Maark Abbott]

Tiste Simeon, on 31 October 2023 - 10:47 PM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 31 October 2023 - 10:41 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 31 October 2023 - 01:32 PM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 31 October 2023 - 01:12 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 31 October 2023 - 12:15 PM, said:

and Netanyahu was like "Hey yeah, let's make that guy our security minister!"

IDK man we made someone guilty of massive tax fraud whilst the highest financial minister our highest overall minister, countries will do fucky stuff like that on a dime.

While that is terrible...it's not quite "coaxed a follower openly to murder a political figure, and then campaigned for that murderer to be freed" evil like Gvir.

I take your point though.

Oh yeah I'm not trying to conflate severity at all, more than I'm so jaded that "person X has done awful thing Y, let's make them a minister" just doesn't surprise me any more.

Indeed I think I read recently that one of the Tories was fired because he called for a ceasefire. This is the party that adamantly refused to fire anyone for racism, lying, breaking the ministerial code, the list goes on... But being a decent human being, heck is not even that, doing the right thing for once! Can't have that...

Edit: Found the article I was talking about - BBC News - Paul Bristow: Ministerial aide sacked after call for Israel-Gaza ceasefire
https://www.bbc.co.u...litics-67264814

It is not possible to be a Tory and a good person at the same time. They are mutually exclusive.

The UK political position on Israel and Gaza has always been very clear at any rate. Labour under Starmer has basically culled any humanitarian capability at the top now. If you sympathise with Palestinians being murdered, you are a terrorist and an antisemite in the eyes of the government and media. Without vast and unrealistic change at the top I don't see that changing any time soon.

[Lady Bliss]

This article sums up pretty well how Israel is creating more terrorists than it is getting rid of along with historical facts.

https://www.cnn.com/...pape/index.html

[Gorefest]

To very clearly state up front: I think both sides (Israel and Hamas) have been acting in abhorrent ways and a cease fire is an absolute must to at the very least pause the suffering, step back and take stock. I am a bit weary though of the slowly increasing narrative of Israel becoming the nasty powerful agitator and the poor Palestinians being caught in the crossfire. A lot of flak is directed towards western leaders, but the countries in the region (Egypt, Iran, etc) are doing and over the decades have done very little themselves to try and work towards a solution. If anything, they are happily abusing the situation themselves for personal gains. The whole thing is just a big shit show and as long as religious conflict dictates the narrative, there is absolutely zero chance of resolving this issue.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 01 November 2023 - 05:22 PM

[worry]

It's an absolutely fantastic and clear-eyed piece of writing. He did an interview with Amy Goodman expanding on his position and actions -- after a 30 year career at the UN. (I know, it's crazy to post half-hour long videos, but it's here in case anyone wants to watch).

[Lady Bliss]

I was glad to see a Rabbi calling for a ceasefire during his campaign speech. See Joe? Most people want peace. We WANT to work together. Stop dancing on the strings of big donors and Israel.

[Maark Abbott]

A fair few Latam countries are pulling their embassies and severing ties with the genocide state entirely.

Empty gesture or something that might go somewhere? Remains to be seen I guess...

[Lady Bliss]

QuickTidal, on 02 November 2023 - 02:22 PM, said:

One thing that I think is interesting, back the the Iraq War happened the only source of information we had was like CNN and other news agencies...and we now know that they lie to us all the time, obscure the truth, hide things from people either deliberately or not ect. so we bought most of the stuff they fed us or at least weren't as critical of it as would could have been and it wasn't till later we learned how many lies we were told about it, and how topping a madman (Saddam) was just the excuse to push into that region and do what they did....the difference in 2023 is that social media is king, and grassroots average people on the ground LIVING these horrors are videoing them and showing them to us in most cases unfiltered and we get to see the actual truth...like I don't think the Western media was prepared for that this time...I think many of them like CNN just figured they could pull the same shit they did during Iraq and Afghanistan and just pretend what was happening was righteous and we were one the side of good facing down unimaginable evil...but the swell of rejection of that notion AROUND the globe in massive protests by the people shows that's simply not going to be allowed anymore and we are angry and we have the means to make change if enough people say no.


As someone who lived thought those previous conflicts as an adult, the difference is staggering. I'm seeing more on the ground stuff every single day than the news has ever shown me in my entire life in the last 3 weeks...that says something to me.

Speaking of the Iraq war, one of my exes is from there and her family left before it all went sideways. Her family is actually Catholic and her memories were that Christians, Jews, and Muslims were all neighbors and friends that interacted on a regular basis. She has often said that removing Saddam totally destabilized the region and that the American news was wrong.

[Mentalist]

QuickTidal, on 02 November 2023 - 02:36 PM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 02 November 2023 - 01:45 PM, said:

A fair few Latam countries are pulling their embassies and severing ties with the genocide state entirely.

Empty gesture or something that might go somewhere? Remains to be seen I guess...

If enough of them do this, it will destabilize Israel and its allies on the world stage I would think, especially when those ally countries like the US and UK and Can all all dip into those countries for various products and things. I'd LOVE to see a bigger ally country cut ties...like mine...if the Federal Liberals ever want my vote back, the first step to that would be cutting ties to a militant and genocidal regime like Israel until they straighten their fucking act out.....but chances of that happening are slim I realize....but still, I wonder if many smaller countries do it, of one of the bigger ones would follow suit.

smth like Indonesia is your best bet for that.

The Western establishment is falling back into Cold War mentality (which is largely what shaped this particular conflict in the first place), and that's not a trend that'll be easy to reverse.