[Nevyn]

With some time to digest.

Things I liked:

• Dany's madness leading to a mass slaughter after she won, instead of just showing in a battle or a punishment, and then she gets knocked off for Jon. If you're going to make her mad, sell the heel turn big time. They did.
• Managing to make Cersei and Jaime semi sympathetic in the midst of it all.
• Cleganebowl - they gave the Hound his sign off from the show, and really just about the only appropriate way for it to end.

Things I did not like:

• As usual for the last couple years, pacing and set up are all off. Dany goes mad too quickly, hurting the plausibility, and also making Varys' betrayal seem more hollow. Not enough set up for either, nor for Jaime's decisions.
• Jaime vs Euron was a too convenient waste of time. And they also picked the wrong wounds for Jaime to suddenly recover from enough to win the fight and go find Cersei.
• On the opposite side of time and pacing, they spend a bit too long on Arya's traumatic escape. They have now spent more screen time making her hate Dany than they spent making Dany go mad. They needed to do something, but they oversold it. Arya and Sansa already don't like Dany.
• It relates a bit to the pacing, but they did a really poor job with the extent to which dragons are vulnerable and then not. Drogon won the battle single handed in 2 minutes of screen time. Which makes the survival of Euron's fleet the previous episode all the more galling and stupid.
• Oh look, Jon Snow is useless again. Does nothing in the battle vs the others, simply there to process horror in the sack of KL, with all the armies more or less irrelevant. The lord of light brought him back why? As a plot device for a battle for the throne, and to help drive Dany mad? Neat.
• Qyburn was a bit too cool a character to go out like that. So cool for so long, and he just becomes a plot device to pivot Cersei into vulnerability and despair.
• Does anyone really care who ends up on the iron throne now? The sense I've had all year of "just give some closure and end it" is even bigger now. Tough to actually root for anyone to win, it is just a race to the ending to be able to say the plot was resolved.

[QuickTidal]

Nevyn, on 13 May 2019 - 02:45 PM, said:

And they also picked the wrong wounds for Jaime to suddenly recover from enough to win the fight and go find Cersei.

My wife (who is a health care worker) kept saying out loud "He would have a collapsed lung. How is he walking and breathing so easily? She was 100% with those wounds he would have died before ever reaching Cersei, let alone walking and finishing his fight.

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 13 May 2019 - 03:46 AM, said:

And fuck a valonqar prophecy!

Since the only part of it not yet fulfilled was her death, I actually think they totally did it....just not in the most obvious way you expected.

"When your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

As she cries (tears) while they are trapped in the holdfast, Jaime (her "little bother", considering she was born first of the twins) wraps his arms around her and the life is choked from both of them as the keep crashes onto them.

That's a slightly different reading than say Tyrion strangling her...but it still works just fine in my books. Especially on the back of every single other part of the prophecy coming to pass on the show.

Just because you expected it to be literal, doesn't mean they didn't do it.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 13 May 2019 - 05:56 PM

[amphibian]

QuickTidal: "The valonqar is a brick."

[worry]

1) That's nonsense.

2) Valonquar was never part of the show, so it doesn't matter that it's nonsense.

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 13 May 2019 - 05:59 PM, said:

QuickTidal: "The valonqar is a brick."

Tell me, do all prophecies made by a random witch occur exactly as prophesied? Or is there perhaps room for interpretation.

worry, on 13 May 2019 - 06:08 PM, said:

2) Valonquar was never part of the show, so it doesn't matter that it's nonsense.

Seeing as how a whole part of an episode in S5 was focused on the prophecy...it kind of was part of the show?

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 13 May 2019 - 06:31 PM

[worry]

The prophecy on the show had three parts:
Wedding a King, not a Prince.

You'll be queen for a time, then comes another.
Three children, crowns, shrouds.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

worry, on 13 May 2019 - 06:38 PM, said:

The prophecy on the show had three parts:
Wedding a King, not a Prince.

You'll be queen for a time, then comes another.
Three children, crowns, shrouds.

She's remembering iirc a prophecy from before she married Robert.

The fulfillment of the 'valonqar' prophecy was the most amusing surprise of the show. Prophecies are often purposefully misleading in that way, especially when delivered to someone the prophesier hates. If an external force causes your hug to suffocate the person you're hugging, does that technically count as you suffocating them? In this context, yes.

I'd bet it's GRRM's intended end for them.

Though the part about 'waking dragons from stone' being a reference to Viserys's 'wake the dragon' as Daenerys starts to go mad at Dragonstone---probably also GRRM's intention, but meh.

Season would have been much better with a few more episodes to build up Daenerys's madness and Jamie's feelings about Cersei / his family, among other things.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 13 May 2019 - 06:54 PM

[worry]

It may or may not be GRRM's intention (if it is, it sucks though). What I am saying is that the "Valonquar" bit from the A Song of Ice and Fire books is not, and has never been, a part of the TV show Game of Thrones.

This post has been edited by worry: 13 May 2019 - 07:19 PM

[Malankazooie]

I had a slight chuckle at this scene. In a - 'wow, this is really corny and dumb' - sort of chuckle though. I mean, I guess it is a call back to when Jon rushed towards the enemy in Battle of the Bastards, so it was attempting to draw some juxtaposition between how valor and heroic deeds race to meet the enemy head on, against sellswords who are in it for the money and will tuck tale and flee when the shit hits the fan sort of comparison? Dunno really. But it just looked goofy and I felt awkward and somewhat uncomfortable watching. So maybe my chuckle was more an autonomic response from my body to help alleviate this awkwardness I was feeling?

[polishgenius]

So yeah, I agree pretty much with those who are saying that this episode in itself was fine- where it has flaws is mostly to do with the truncated and fast-forwarded nature of the season as a whole.

I didn't particularly like Jaime's ending but that's in the good way these stories became known for for ending or taking characters in directions we didn't necessarily want.


The only actual flaw-per-se in it for me was Jaime vs Euron, a fight with almost no personal stakes coz no-one cares about Euron, shoved in in a part of the episode where it distracted from the devastation going on elsewhere, ended daftly with Jaime walking off a lungstab, and somewhat pre-empted Cleganebowl. That wasn't great.



Dany going mad was fine. Yes it was a bit rapid as has been said, but there's a lot of people on twitter and that complaining that they haven't set it up at all and that it's just a 'hysterical woman' trope and as much as I enjoy shitting on D&D's troublesome choices I really don't think this is one of them and that those people can't have been paying attention to the show.

And the actual depiction of it was brilliant.




Arya's gonna fucking murderise Dany yes she is.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

polishgenius, on 13 May 2019 - 07:16 PM, said:

So yeah, I agree pretty much with those who are saying that this episode in itself was fine- where it has flaws is mostly to do with the truncated and fast-forwarded nature of the season as a whole.

I didn't particularly like Jaime's ending but that's in the good way these stories became known for for ending or taking characters in directions we didn't necessarily want.


The only actual flaw-per-se in it for me was Jaime vs Euron, a fight with almost no personal stakes coz no-one cares about Euron, shoved in in a part of the episode where it distracted from the devastation going on elsewhere, ended daftly with Jaime walking off a lungstab, and somewhat pre-empted Cleganebowl. That wasn't great.



Dany going mad was fine. Yes it was a bit rapid as has been said, but there's a lot of people on twitter and that complaining that they haven't set it up at all and that it's just a 'hysterical woman' trope and as much as I enjoy shitting on D&D's troublesome choices I really don't think this is one of them and that those people can't have been paying attention to the show.

And the actual depiction of it was brilliant.




Arya's gonna fucking murderise Dany yes she is.

'Game of Thrones turns into Crazy Ex-Girlfriend'

https://www.thedaily...friend?ref=home

Missing Dany's musical numbers... some opera would have been nice. On dragon back... and let the dragon sing too. And Bran with his crows....

[Gorefest]

I think Dany going mad is inevitable and will happen in the books too. I thought the destruction of KL and the suffering of the people was hard-hitting and impressive/disturbing in a grand way. I think the Cersei/Jaime playout may be in line the books as well. All fine.


What really bothers me is the painfully inept way in which the character arcs and motivations are written. It is just a shambolic mess. It is incredibly rushed (especially against a 7 season buildup backdrop). It makes characters act against everything the viewer has been led up to believe of them. Everything has become subordinate to getting the overall plot to where B&W have been told it should be. It feels like two directors who are way out of their depth and who are trying to juggle a bunch of plot points and characters to fit into a final setting that has been impressed on them. It is painful to watch.


At this point I am just waiting for the whole thing to be over, so we know not to get our hopes up anymore and just rewatch it in a few years as an entertaining and at times enthralling series with an okay ending. And that's fine. Is it 8 seasons worth of fine? Meh. But hopefully we will still have the books.


One day.


Unless they get finished posthumously by Sanderson.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 13 May 2019 - 07:58 PM

[Tiste Simeon]

I loved it. Enjoy reading the discussion but it was a harrowing and shocking ep. Kind of this season's red wedding. It's like GoT used to be, throwing death and destruction all over the place and leaving you feeling numb.

Not a clue how they're going to show Arya killing Dany while Jon watches with his mouth open and I imagine Sansa will use the GoT teleport device to somehow show up at KL with Brienne and Bran in order to give them screen time and round their stories off nicely, but I'm looking forward to it. 🙂

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Tiste Simeon, on 13 May 2019 - 07:58 PM, said:

I loved it. Enjoy reading the discussion but it was a harrowing and shocking ep. Kind of this season's red wedding. It's like GoT used to be, throwing death and destruction all over the place and leaving you feeling numb.

Not a clue how they're going to show Arya killing Dany while Jon watches with his mouth open and I imagine Sansa will use the GoT teleport device to somehow show up at KL with Brienne and Bran in order to give them screen time and round their stories off nicely, but I'm looking forward to it. ��

If Jon Azor Ahais Dany... well even if it's not in the books, HBO will be tempted to make the whole series meaningful by... bringing back the WW at the end. Now Jon goes North to fight them (especially if they can switch out Jon for budget-Jon... fulfilling the prophecy not only turns his sword into Lightbringer, but magically transforms Jon into one of the discarded Daario actors! other major characters get old enough that their looks also change drastically, depending on how much money they want...).

Of course, in reality, it was just a preview/lengthy ad for the video game(s)... the true economic engine of future hewmanitty.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 13 May 2019 - 08:09 PM

[Malankazooie]

Boy did Qyburn have an undignified end. You'd think the Dr. Franenstein of Westeros would have more control over his monster.

Then Cersei was all like - "imma let you boys sort it out, just let me scooch by, around this rubble" #KayThxByeeee

[champ]

Man, Varys has got some balls, not even making a peep whilst getting cooked alive by Drogon...

[Nevyn]

Malankazooie, on 13 May 2019 - 08:12 PM, said:

Boy did Qyburn have an undignified end. You'd think the Dr. Franenstein of Westeros would have more control over his monster.

Then Cersei was all like - "imma let you boys sort it out, just let me scooch by, around this rubble" #KayThxByeeee

Yeah, I remember that great story about Dr Frankenstein making a monster and then everything working out fine.

[Slow Ben]

Gorefest, on 13 May 2019 - 07:57 PM, said:

I think Dany going mad is inevitable and will happen in the books too. I thought the destruction of KL and the suffering of the people was hard-hitting and impressive/disturbing in a grand way. I think the Cersei/Jaime playout may be in line the books as well. All fine.


What really bothers me is the painfully inept way in which the character arcs and motivations are written. It is just a shambolic mess. It is incredibly rushed (especially against a 7 season buildup backdrop). It makes characters act against everything the viewer has been led up to believe of them. Everything has become subordinate to getting the overall plot to where B&W have been told it should be. It feels like two directors who are way out of their depth and who are trying to juggle a bunch of plot points and characters to fit into a final setting that has been impressed on them. It is painful to watch.


At this point I am just waiting for the whole thing to be over, so we know not to get our hopes up anymore and just rewatch it in a few years as an entertaining and at times enthralling series with an okay ending. And that's fine. Is it 8 seasons worth of fine? Meh. But hopefully we will still have the books.


One day.


Unless they get finished posthumously by Sanderson.

100%

I was trying to put into words how I felt and you saved me the time and did it for me. Thanks man!

[Mezla PigDog]

Erm. Meh, I guess.

I was holding my breath while Arya was staggering about KL and I almost shed a tear when Jaime and Cersai embraced at the last minute. I knew Jaime had gone back to her because he loved her. And I felt bad for Cersei because even though she's a meanie she's a total badass. I think they're my favourite characters. Tyrion and Jaime saying goodbye was also quite moving.

However I cry at tv at the drop of a hat and the fact I didn't shed a tear shows the rest was shit. Most shit for me was Cersei just standing there all episode. She's not that stupid and it was such a reversal from the episode before. They are wasting our time simply going from tentpole moment to tentpole moment. Have a little respect why don't you.