[Malankazooie]

The patch they released for ver 8.5 made the dragons OP. I wonder if they will nerf them again before the season ends.

[amphibian]

We spend whole seasons watching Bran and Arya learn to do apparently key supernatural things - and then they don't matter at all when the end game occurs.

It's a shit heap of an ending, even with Clegane Bowl.

[Nevyn]

So that episode happened.

[amphibian]

Let's build a ten year arc of a woman who rose from being an unwilling refugee bride to a liberating queen to a lady who loses her shit when the bells ring.

Yeah!

And fuck a valonqar prophecy!

[Nevyn]

amphibian, on 13 May 2019 - 03:11 AM, said:

We spend whole seasons watching Bran and Arya learn to do apparently key supernatural things - and then they don't matter at all when the end game occurs.

It's a shit heap of an ending, even with Clegane Bowl.

Arya might just kill a different mad queen than expected. In fact with that episode it's pretty much a given she will try.

Plus Arya did use her training to kill the night king, lured there by Bran. So it's not like they did nothing.

The madness direction succeeding on such grand scale is better than a lot of predictions and pitches I heard. They just mad her madness pivot a bit too fast, and after hard work making the dragons mortal it turns out all she has to do is decide to kill all the defenses. Next time do that when the fleet is killing your fleet.

The madness is fine if rushed. The Stupidity is somewhat less so.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Nevyn, on 13 May 2019 - 03:50 AM, said:

amphibian, on 13 May 2019 - 03:11 AM, said:

We spend whole seasons watching Bran and Arya learn to do apparently key supernatural things - and then they don't matter at all when the end game occurs.

It's a shit heap of an ending, even with Clegane Bowl.

Arya might just kill a different mad queen than expected. In fact with that episode it's pretty much a given she will try.

Plus Arya did use her training to kill the night king, lured there by Bran. So it's not like they did nothing.

The madness direction succeeding on such grand scale is better than a lot of predictions and pitches I heard. They just mad her madness pivot a bit too fast, and after hard work making the dragons mortal it turns out all she has to do is decide to kill all the defenses. Next time do that when the fleet is killing your fleet.

The madness is fine if rushed. The Stupidity is somewhat less so.

She should do it by first killing Jon and taking his face.

Then rule.

But that would be too much of a happy ending....

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Both major battles this season... stupidly resembled U.S.oAn football.

The leaks for this episode proved disappointingly accurate. But I was already (mostly) in lasciate ogne speranza mode anyway.

Lots of pretty eye candy. The Corinthian columns and the Roman-style wall murals were interesting touches---though they did make me think, '... there are certainly more impressive surviving murals from Pompeii... wait... would I rather be looking at those? They seem, at least, more advanced than this....'

Perhaps in the books Tyrion's precipitous mental decline will be more of a gradual dissolution through drink---or hitting his head?... If GRRM waits long enough he can write the final Tyrion parts when he has genuine dementia! Ultimate realism....

The 'Daenerys burns the fleet' scene had me thinking 'is this an extended advertisement for the Many and Future video games, and the billions more that they will probably bring'?....

I was yawning, except when the dragon made scary noises and my cat meowed for reassurance on my knee. Also when Cleganebowl began, she demanded I stop the video and play with her.

Friend of mine pointed out that ep 3 made more sense under D&D rules. Euron's 'backstab' (wow, old school D&D!) roll must've sucked twice in a row.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 13 May 2019 - 05:26 AM

[worry]

I'll hold off on forming an opinion of that episode until I hear how earth history's greatest tacticians would have actually slaughtered those civilians.

Jk. Thought it was dumb as hell in some of the most important parts (the bells, the bellllllss!!). And I agree with amph about the perfunctory arc-plotting for Dany in particular, even if Mad Queen was always a possibility, and I'll add Grey Worm to that list. Again, B&W wrote the episode, and again it's clear that another first draft made it to screen -- they apparently get feedback from zero other people before they start shooting. And these guys are soapy as all hell, it turns out.

That said, now that the show IS fundamentally stupid and wrongheaded, gotta say it was a pretty thrilling episode anyway. So, like The Long Night, another mixed bag for me (high highs and low lows).

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

I'm going to echo worry's "first draft" comment - I enjoyed the episode in a way, but I found myself wondering how much better most of the plot threads would have been with a whole season to build them up - as has been said above, Dany pivots far too fast into "Mad Queen". I do think they did a pretty good job of showing the destruction of KL and the loss of life there, some moments the combination of visuals and score was genuinely affecting.

I kind of didn't mind Cersei and Jaime's ending (presuming they are indeed dead) - but again, it would have been so much better if we'd had a season of Jaime worrying at whether he can seek redemption with Brienne or return to Cersei and die with her - doing it all in the space of an episode and a half robs it of all power. His fight with Euron just seemed like "we need to get rid of this character now" - he's been a complete waste.

Cleganebowl did absolutely nothing for me but then I never cared for the idea much to begin with so that isn't unexpected.

With only one episode left however I cannot see a way to tie this up in any satisfying way.

The only outcome is we now know it wasn't snow all over the Iron Throne in Dany's vision - it was indeed ashes.

[worry]

I wish they didn't do Mad Queen at all frankly...I think bringing her to the edge of it and pulling back would have been more interesting, more satisfying, and could still have had a Sherman's March righteousness element to it instead of what happens. Sherman's March with dragons -- especially given the context of Dany's whole enterprise -- would have been so rad. Instead it's kind of a generic war-is-hell narrative -- which itself was effective as a standalone event -- but instead of contrasting Dany & the Mountain (during the War of Five Kings) as the show had been doing, we now get this story line where she essentially becomes him. Everyone's the bad guys! I double, triple, and quadruple down on hoping their Civil War show never happens.


Edit: I know I should probably discuss the good and the bad both, since this is all coming out negative, but a lot of the 'good' would just be saying 'oh that was cool.' I will say Jaime & Tyrion's parting scene felt genuine, Jon watching everything go to hell was affecting, the dragon rampage was cool in and of itself, and for a TV show it did mostly pull off that visceral Saving Private Ryan vibe like very few shows ever could (albeit more hollow/dumb).

This post has been edited by worry: 13 May 2019 - 07:05 AM

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

I think that's fair.

Noteworthy that Lena Headey and Conleth Hill have both aired mixed feelings now. I doubt they'll be the last.

Edit: Just going to clarify my point about Mad Queen now I've digested it a bit. I do think this is where she was going (at least on the show) - she's left a trail of burned corpses behind her beginning with Mirri Maz Dur and ending with the population of KL all the way back to the first series. It's more that the last bit of development has felt like the fast forward button is being taped down. The story point itself works for me - it just needed ten more episodes to earn it, in my head.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 13 May 2019 - 07:59 AM

[nacht]

I just couldn't wait for the episode to end. It was so bad.
There is simply no reason for Dany to go atomic, other than to setup the next episode for an Arya kill.
It just beggars belief that she would destroy the city. instead of just burning the defenses and then the keep..
And the total dominance (a pandering to the mindless?), with zero fight from the Golden company. or the Lannister army. The last episode had like 1000 arrow bolts. This one had like one or two.

The Euron vs Jaime fight and dialog- pure unncessary crap.
And Sandor vs Gregor - best forgotten
Did she have to burn Vary's, and why was it so silent

GoT had political machinations.
These episodes have nothing. Since Dany can't have children, it seems that all she had to do was make Jon the heir or even marry him.

A few good things.
The thematic setup of faceless men vs Dragon lords. (at least i hope that was not an accidental coincidence)
The enfilade? in taking out the castle scorpions.

[Hocknose]

Didn't the Golden Company learn from the battle of Winterfell...You don't line your troops up OUTSIDE the walls when you're defending a siege!!! :-) What a waste of gold they were!!

[Cause]

Hocknose, on 13 May 2019 - 09:29 AM, said:

Didn't the Golden Company learn from the battle of Winterfell...You don't line your troops up OUTSIDE the walls when you're defending a siege!!! :-) What a waste of gold they were!!

Rome Total War general here!

You cant set a unit of hoplite infantry to phalanx formation on top of a wall. Without this advantage they are very expensive infantry that lose out on their best advantage so its better to deploy them off the walls. I imagine cersei had similar problems setting the golden company to phalanx formation. However she should have set them to phalanx formation behind the walls and gate and simply guarded any breaches. Archers on the wall to whittle down the enemy.

Now as to the dragon......

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Have the Golden Company actually done anything since Cersei bought them? Aside from disappoint on the elephant front?

They just seemed a throwaway line tacked on which ended up being pointless - if they were always going to make Euron and the Iron Fleet so OP, why bother with them at all? Or am I forgetting something?

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 13 May 2019 - 10:05 AM

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 13 May 2019 - 03:46 AM, said:

Let's build a ten year arc of a woman who rose from being an unwilling refugee bride to a liberating queen to a lady who loses her shit when the bells ring.

Yeah!

I mean, this is a tad unfair to the plotting. Just because this was/is about to be her ending doesn't mean that it was all for nothing. It just so happens this is Game of Thrones, not Happy Time Princess Hour. The facts of her story up till now don't change where she ends up. Did anyone watching Dany expect a happy ending? I mean, this is obviously GRRM's plan too....otherwise they've gone WAYYYY off book, and I doubt that with such a major development. She's the daughter of the Mad King after all. It's not like the possibility was not telegraphed in earlier seasons. I mean, she let her own brother be crown-melted (dick that he was), and calls herself "Mother of Dragons"...sane ain't exactly what I'd ever have called her.

If you didn't like this, that's fine...but breaking down her story points into some sort of socio-politic underlying agenda is...a tad off.

Nevyn, on 13 May 2019 - 03:50 AM, said:

amphibian, on 13 May 2019 - 03:11 AM, said:

We spend whole seasons watching Bran and Arya learn to do apparently key supernatural things - and then they don't matter at all when the end game occurs.

Arya might just kill a different mad queen than expected. In fact with that episode it's pretty much a given she will try.

Plus Arya did use her training to kill the night king, lured there by Bran. So it's not like they did nothing.

The madness direction succeeding on such grand scale is better than a lot of predictions and pitches I heard. They just mad her madness pivot a bit too fast, and after hard work making the dragons mortal it turns out all she has to do is decide to kill all the defenses. Next time do that when the fleet is killing your fleet.

The madness is fine if rushed. The Stupidity is somewhat less so.

^^this I agree with. Arya and Bran served their roles, and anything after that will be chaff/extra. But yes, the whole point having Arya go through all that stuff in this episode on the ground floor...was 100% to set her against Dany. You don't have a badass character like Arya go through the trauma of the burning/razing of King's Landing without a point....that point will become apparent next episode as she aims a dagger at Dany. Whether she succeeds or not is up for grabs.

Azath Vitr (D, on 13 May 2019 - 05:06 AM, said:

The Corinthian columns and the Roman-style wall murals were interesting touches---though they did make me think, '... there are certainly more impressive surviving murals from Pompeii... wait... would I rather be looking at those? They seem, at least, more advanced than this....'

This was VERY intentional, up to and including the mother/daughter we'd been watching for the whole ep running through the civilians quarters to get away form the carnage dying in each others arms and becoming a gruesome charred maquette...taken directly from the ones at Pompeii (Have been there, I've seen the one they were aping). I thought that was well done actually. It helped sell this as not just a dragon attacking, but almost an act of the gods.

worry, on 13 May 2019 - 05:38 AM, said:

Jk. Thought it was dumb as hell in some of the most important parts (the bells, the bellllllss!!). And I agree with amph about the perfunctory arc-plotting for Dany in particular, even if Mad Queen was always a possibility, and I'll add Grey Worm to that list. Again, B&W wrote the episode, and again it's clear that another first draft made it to screen -- they apparently get feedback from zero other people before they start shooting. And these guys are soapy as all hell, it turns out.

That said, now that the show IS fundamentally stupid and wrongheaded, gotta say it was a pretty thrilling episode anyway. So, like The Long Night, another mixed bag for me (high highs and low lows).

This feeling you have right now...of having your expectations subverted by what you think is shitty plotting, bad tactics, and sundry other writing offences by B&W....yeah, I could tell you what writer/film that happened to me with....but then you liked that film a lot....soooo. Still, it sustains me to know that so many people are having the same problems with recent GoT eps that I had with TLJ.

-------------

My wife thinks that Jon will kill Dany. Which I agree with because it would/could fulfill the Azhor Azai prophecy. How that fits into Arya's story, I don't know.

Cleagan's ending was solid. It was a well done fight, with a bit of humour (Just die already!)...and the denouement of pushing them both through the wall and that fall into flames....amazing imagery, and a hell of a way to go out for the dude who hated fire. But hated his brother more.

Arya's harrowing push through the city was well done, and really gave us a ground level "plebs" shot of the whole ordeal, which helped sell the carnage of it.

Dany knew she'd burn the city going in. She expected to do it. Tyrion should never have believed otherwise of her. Her mind was set.

Varys' death was the knell in her relationship with Jon...he watched, sickened by what he saw as her father....using Dragonfire to kill a betrayer. This is not what he's used to "He who sets the sentence, swings the sword" They actually called back to that a few eps back to make sure we remembered how Ned taught Jon to mete out justice. What Dany did was another example of the Mad Queen. It was only a matter of time till others faced a similar fate.

I think my biggest gripe, and it's a big one...is Jaime's arc ending as it did. It felt like he had spent years coming to the slow realization that Cersei was a manipulative, vile, cow....and had basically led him down the primrose path with a mixture of sex, power, and admiration....and in the end he fell back into it with her. I HONESTLY thought he'd moved past that. I expected him to dagger her in the holdfast while he was hugging her. To finally show her he'd figured out who she was and that she was awful. This whole idea that he could not escape her web because he deemed himself a monster and thought he deserved to die with her...god that sucks. I don't know if that's what GRRM had planned for him, but I don't love it. It feels like the backtracking they did with Barney on HIMYM after spending three seasons growing him into someone else.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

QuickTidal, on 13 May 2019 - 01:18 PM, said:

Dany knew she'd burn the city going in. She expected to do it. Tyrion should never have believed otherwise of her. Her mind was set.

This has been a bit of a pet peeve with the criticism I've seen elsewhere - "why'd she decide to burn them after they surrendered?"

She didn't. She decided the second before she said "let it be fear" to Jon. When Tyrion asks her to give the populace the chance and she nods to Grey Worm, she's not nodding to acknowledge Tyrion's request - she's nodding for him to continue as they'd clearly already planned.

Quote

I think my biggest gripe, and it's a big one...is Jaime's arc ending as it did. It felt like he had spent years coming to the slow realization that Cersei was a manipulative, vile, cow....and had basically led him down the primrose path with a mixture of sex, power, and admiration....and in the end he fell back into it with her. I HONESTLY thought he'd moved past that. I expected him to dagger her in the holdfast while he was hugging her. To finally show her he'd figured out who she was and that she was awful. This whole idea that he could not escape her web because he deemed himself a monster and thought he deserved to die with her...god that sucks. I don't know if that's what GRRM had planned for him, but I don't love it. It feels like the backtracking they did with Barney on HIMYM after spending three seasons growing him into someone else.

Interestingly, last week I would have agreed with this but I've given Jaime's story a lot more thought and although part of me wanted redemption for him because I like the character, I think the point he rather ham-fistedly makes to Brienne as he departs Winterfell encapsulates his story (probably for the books as well) - through his journey, he can now see what he's done and why - but HE doesn't think he deserves redemption and so goes back to Cersei.

Is it satisfying? No, not really. But I think it actually feels more in keeping with the flavour of the books and Martin's story than to have him redeemed would have done.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 13 May 2019 - 01:33 PM

[QuickTidal]

nacht, on 13 May 2019 - 07:58 AM, said:

There is simply no reason for Dany to go atomic, other than to setup the next episode for an Arya kill.
It just beggars belief that she would destroy the city. instead of just burning the defenses and then the keep..
And the total dominance (a pandering to the mindless?), with zero fight from the Golden company. or the Lannister army. The last episode had like 1000 arrow bolts. This one had like one or two.

This is a woman who has always sought, sometimes unrepentant vengeance on anyone who wronged her. Every. Single. Time.

Her brother - crown melting...and usurped him even though he is the true heir...and utilized her new husband and his men as the bullies who did the deed.
Part of a savage horde that raided and pillaged civilians, she brushes this off as the "price for the Iron Throne"....the PRICE FOR THE IRON THRONE....these are not the words of a sane and just ruler.
Has burned people alive, ordered executions by crucifixion...the exact thing she complained the nobles of Mereen were doing...
She sacked 3 cities, all of which fell into chaos and disorder after that fact.
She freed slaves, but never had a contingency plan for what they would do after being freed from lifelong servitude, leaving them universally aimless and vulnerable (like post-Soviet Russia falling to the Mob)
She literally left a trail of shit in her wake in Essos. That continent won't be better off for her having done the things she's done.


I mean she doesn't want to be SEEN as these things and even tries not to be them...but she always falls into being them anyways. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. She is meant to be tragic.

The shows execution of these factors may be off, and people may find the turn to be too abrupt...there is a case for that...but the books and the show have not shied away from the bad things she's done trying to claw her way to the throne...we've just all overlooked it because she WANTED to do good.

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 13 May 2019 - 01:32 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 13 May 2019 - 01:18 PM, said:

I think my biggest gripe, and it's a big one...is Jaime's arc ending as it did. It felt like he had spent years coming to the slow realization that Cersei was a manipulative, vile, cow....and had basically led him down the primrose path with a mixture of sex, power, and admiration....and in the end he fell back into it with her. I HONESTLY thought he'd moved past that. I expected him to dagger her in the holdfast while he was hugging her. To finally show her he'd figured out who she was and that she was awful. This whole idea that he could not escape her web because he deemed himself a monster and thought he deserved to die with her...god that sucks. I don't know if that's what GRRM had planned for him, but I don't love it. It feels like the backtracking they did with Barney on HIMYM after spending three seasons growing him into someone else.

Interestingly, last week I would have agreed with this but I've given Jaime's story a lot more thought and although part of me wanted redemption for him because I like the character, I think the point he rather ham-fistedly makes to Brienne as he departs Winterfell encapsulates his story (probably for the books as well) - through his journey, he can now see what he's done and why - but HE doesn't think he deserves redemption and so goes back to Cersei.

Is it satisfying? No, not really. But I think it actually feels more in keeping with the flavour of the books and Martin's story than to have him redeemed would have done.

Yes, I can definitely see this angle. You make a solid case. It still was affecting...

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 13 May 2019 - 01:41 PM

[Cause]

QuickTidal, on 13 May 2019 - 01:18 PM, said:

amphibian, on 13 May 2019 - 03:46 AM, said:

Let's build a ten year arc of a woman who rose from being an unwilling refugee bride to a liberating queen to a lady who loses her shit when the bells ring.

Yeah!

I mean, this is a tad unfair to the plotting. Just because this was/is about to be her ending doesn't mean that it was all for nothing. It just so happens this is Game of Thrones, not Happy Time Princess Hour. The facts of her story up till now don't change where she ends up. Did anyone watching Dany expect a happy ending? I mean, this is obviously GRRM's plan too....otherwise they've gone WAYYYY off book, and I doubt that with such a major development. She's the daughter of the Mad King after all. It's not like the possibility was not telegraphed in earlier seasons. I mean, she let her own brother be crown-melted (dick that he was), and calls herself "Mother of Dragons"...sane ain't exactly what I'd ever have called her.

If you didn't like this, that's fine...but breaking down her story points into some sort of socio-politic underlying agenda is...a tad off.

Its not unfair to the plotting. As a book reader like most of us are I have been complaining (can probably find it somewhere way back in one of the threads) that the TV show has been misleading people about Danny for ages. The books made it quite clear that everything she touches turns to shit. Everything I'm about to say is true in the show as well but the writers brushed past these things and didn't show the consequences. The moment she left Astapor the slaves became the masters and the masters slaves. Training of new unsullied began immediately. The moment she left Yunkai the masters re-enslaved every freeman who stayed behind, reconquered Astapor from the slave-masters (or would it be master-slaves) and started an alliance with New Ghis against Danny. In mereen where she decided to stay and rule her dragons went berserk, She is being manipulated on every side and the city starves, is overrun with disease and former slaves are begging for the chance to sell themselves back into slavery at the docks in order to at least be provided with food. Even in the books she is not show necessarily as mad but at least the idea of her as some kind of empowering figure who is signle handedly destroying slavery and protecting the downtrodden is seen as being misguidedly inept.

Though to a degree based on some fan reactions Id say people saw what they wanted to see. When people say GoT has become racist or anti-feminist for how it killed missandei and now Dany id say they just haven't been paying attention to what happened to most slaves.

[QuickTidal]

Cause, on 13 May 2019 - 02:07 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 13 May 2019 - 01:18 PM, said:

amphibian, on 13 May 2019 - 03:46 AM, said:

Let's build a ten year arc of a woman who rose from being an unwilling refugee bride to a liberating queen to a lady who loses her shit when the bells ring.

Yeah!

I mean, this is a tad unfair to the plotting. Just because this was/is about to be her ending doesn't mean that it was all for nothing. It just so happens this is Game of Thrones, not Happy Time Princess Hour. The facts of her story up till now don't change where she ends up. Did anyone watching Dany expect a happy ending? I mean, this is obviously GRRM's plan too....otherwise they've gone WAYYYY off book, and I doubt that with such a major development. She's the daughter of the Mad King after all. It's not like the possibility was not telegraphed in earlier seasons. I mean, she let her own brother be crown-melted (dick that he was), and calls herself "Mother of Dragons"...sane ain't exactly what I'd ever have called her.

If you didn't like this, that's fine...but breaking down her story points into some sort of socio-politic underlying agenda is...a tad off.

Its not unfair to the plotting. As a book reader like most of us are I have been complaining (can probably find it somewhere way back in one of the threads) that the TV show has been misleading people about Danny for ages. The books made it quite clear that everything she touches turns to shit. Everything I'm about to say is true in the show as well but the writers brushed past these things and didn't show the consequences. The moment she left Astapor the slaves became the masters and the masters slaves. Training of new unsullied began immediately. The moment she left Yunkai the masters re-enslaved every freeman who stayed behind, reconquered Astapor from the slave-masters (or would it be master-slaves) and started an alliance with New Ghis against Danny. In mereen where she decided to stay and rule her dragons went berserk, She is being manipulated on every side and the city starves, is overrun with disease and former slaves are begging for the chance to sell themselves back into slavery at the docks in order to at least be provided with food. Even in the books she is not show necessarily as mad but at least the idea of her as some kind of empowering figure who is signle handedly destroying slavery and protecting the downtrodden is seen as being misguidedly inept.

Though to a degree based on some fan reactions Id say people saw what they wanted to see. When people say GoT has become racist or anti-feminist for how it killed missandei and now Dany id say they just haven't been paying attention to what happened to most slaves.

I think it's been done fine on the show, just a bit rushed on occasion. I truly think that some audience members just liked Dany, or the idea of her too much to see the terrible things she did for that they were. Shrug.