[polishgenius]

Man, the more I think about it the more I dislike it. I'm actually genuinely quite angry that years and years of buildup and this is what we got. Badly plotted, badly choregraphed, badly lit, badly edited...

(I don't want to piss on the chips of you all who did like it. I'm glad you did. But for me this was almost Hobbit movie bad)


And another thing that made me mad, though it was a moment that had less weight for me because twitter spoiled it for me before, is the way the Dothraki just got chucked away in the first five minutes for no reason at all. Like in-show militarily what the fuck was that and out of show, especially since (although with a far better reason) the Unsullied followed them a few minutes later, it looked... well, bad.


eta: but to give it some credit, it did the 'awesome (and sometimes awful) women doing awesome things' really well. Red Lady, Arya, Lyana, Brienne... the ladies got shit done. And it didn't feel fake or patronising like these moments sometimes do, because it was all a natural progression of who these characters already were.

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 29 April 2019 - 10:57 PM

[rant]

QuickTidal, on 29 April 2019 - 06:48 PM, said:

You put WAY too much thought into your own hoop jumping to make it work the way you wanted it to work man.

This was great TV. No one will convince me otherwise.

I'll try!!

First lets just to get this out of the way. I think you rely too greatly on a "logistics of television" argument. In your hands, it appears more like a hammer than a chisel. I get the impression that anyone who thinks differently than you just doesn't really get the $ behind GOT.

My problem with this is that I don't think that we've yet found evidence for your 'logistics of television' argument.
15 years ago, could anyone argue about the $ associated with an episode of TV when an episode of The Crown costs $10 million?
The logistics of television are whatever the realities of television dictate.

Leaving that argument aside and actually criticizing the episode.

So, a main criticism for many of us is that the battle tactics sucked. Like completely. You are content to let them slide, which is fine I suppose, but alot of people weren't. It hurt the experience for us.
The issue isn't that they lost (or won a Pyrrhic victory). Its how they lost. As impressive as everything we saw was, it could have been more impressive, it could have been coole.r Dothraki trying to flank an unflankable enemy.....Unsullied holding back an unstoppable enemy, small individual wars on the walls as each turret is defended until death....etc. etc. But they chose really random tactics, tactics that seemed designed to get characters into the plot points they were wanted in. (Tactics born of very little understanding of warfare)

I've seen decent arguments as to why (e.g. Worry stated above that maybe they just don't have battle experience (they ARE like all 20 year olds....., Jaime should be in charge), decisions happened like they did ....tactics existed to serve plot points (but they didn't have to! What if all those glorious last stands were our heroes protecting archers from attack, etc/, etc), rather than vice versa.

Regardless, an episode (or 7 mins of one) of them actually defining their defenses and why they were presented as such ( I may not agree with using Bran as bait...but at least we know its happening.
) would be ideal. So lets say that they just need to hold onto Winterfell until the dragons toast all the wights. There are 100k+ wights, so this will take a while. Especially affter Nigh King starts blizzard. etc. etc. Cue rest of episode ( tho stop Theons dumb charge)

[Mezla PigDog]

Cause, on 29 April 2019 - 10:23 PM, said:

The story has been exciting and fun to watch but I am also now asking what was the point of the story. Why did the nightking reappear now? How has he been a threat for ten thousand years and he was defeated by a dagger? Why did bran need to become the nightking. Where all the prophecies of the prince that was promised pointless? I could see GRRM going that route but here I feel like the writers just dropped the ball. I mean cersei is batshit but at this point does it really matter who rules westeros? At least humanit survives.

Life's a journey not a destination Seems to me now the sole purpose was as a plot device to get Jon and Dany together and weaken Dany's overwhelming numbers to make it more of a fight against Cersai at the end. Now that Dany has lost the Dothraki and Unsullied and I think another dragon she's going to have to play better politics.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

The more I think about it (although I am going to give it a second watch and see if that changes my perspective) I agree with what others have said in that the purpose of the NK feels undercut. I disagree with QT's interpretation (but interpretation is all we have, so....) as whilst Rhaegar talks about "the prince that was promised, his will be the song of ice and fire", I felt that more widely the ice and fire were Stark and Targaryen, as the descendants of the First Men and the men of Valyria (so in combination a possible reference to Jon and not Aegon, who Rhaegar is talking about in the vision) and wider still the White Walkers and the dragons. It doesn't have to be one single thing.

In the show we've been shown the Children created NK and it was for them to have a weapon against the First Men/Andals/whoever it was burning their groves. Beyond that we don't know a thing (or if Leaf did explain I've forgotten) - did he and the WWs go rogue? Was there actually a better reason than "watch the world freeze" for them to come south? Why now after however many thousand years of sleep?

It doesn't necessarily wreck everything, but I do feel the absence of that context.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 30 April 2019 - 06:16 AM

[Tiste Simeon]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 30 April 2019 - 06:05 AM, said:

In the show we've been shown the Children created NK and it was for them to have a weapon against the First Men/Andals/whoever it was burning their groves. Beyond that we don't know a thing (or if Leaf did explain I've forgotten) - did he and the WWs go rogue? Was there actually a better reason than "watch the world freeze" for them to come south? Why now after however many thousand years of sleep?

Global warming. Glad someone was taking it seriously...

This post has been edited by Tiste Simeon: 30 April 2019 - 07:01 AM

[Tattersail_]

The show was awesome. I real shake my head at those of you who say they should have done certain things regarding war tactics. They all knew their only hope was for the NK to get to Bran and be killed but that's easier said than done. No one alive in this world (I think) has faced an army of the dead. They did not know they could create a 20 foot high wall of bodies to swarm over things, but they did know they had giants and dragons, so it was always going to be tough to stay behind the walls and I reckon they did the best they could given the situation. The cavalry charge was Melisandre's fault, if she didn't give them flaming swords then I doubt they charge, as no one gave the order to do so. So many things that you can shake your head at, for me it was Dany rescuing Jon and then not taking off straight away. There's thousands of dead surrounding you, take off for God's sake.

The Hound getting over his fear to go save Arya was amazing. I do love him. Do we know if Gendry survived?

Was Arya that Wight that turned its head? It looked like the rest were all still except that one, did she faceless man the NK? So many good moments. They could either kill them all(Jon, Dany, Sansa, Tyrion etc), or kill the NK there was no middle ground here. Only one victor, whoever that'd be.

[worry]

This is a Youtube video essay, so it is inherently annoying, but it does a decent breakdown of the schism between the book-seasons and the post-book-seasons that makes sense. And while it's a critique, it's from someone who still likes and watches the show, so it's not a rant. It seems to have been written before S8 started, though it was published a week ago.


If you don't wanna watch it -- and I don't blame you, cuz again, Youtube Video Essay:

Spoiler

the thesis is basically that the show feels different because B&W changed the rules of the show. Book seasons = strategic motivations w/ adherence to Cause & Effect, even if the effect breaks traditional storytelling rules (thus subverting tropes). Post-book seasons = adherence to traditional storytelling, good guys and bad guys, with the underlying structure being Setup & Payoff. The latter isn't necessarily bad, and can certainly be entertaining, but it can eschew realism for big moments, however unlikely, to get to those payoffs. And the shift in the rules mid-series (S5 being the pivot point) is understandably jarring (and for many, off-putting).

Later in the video, given the nature of the show, it goes into the moral implication of such a shift, so if you're into that kind of thing, you might find something to chew on there too. If you do wind up watching it, I'll say that while you don't see the writer on screen to my memory, I'd bet my nose that this guy has never stood in front of a wall of video games and anime figurines ranting about SJWs, so it shouldn't screw up your YT algorithm.

[Traveller]

From what we've seen in the show, taking a new face takes time and preparation - not something that could be done in a dark gatehouse during a battle. Also, the walkers just explode when they die. And, they have some silent communication with each other - I think they'd have been aware if one of them was replaced.

That said, in my first viewing I thought that the Walker that turned his head slight when the Nk reached for his dagger was Arya. It may be that he was responding to her passing by.. maybe even Theon was.

It also looks on second viewing that theres a possibility that both Theon and Bran have seen Arya - the charge by Theon is a distraction.

Arya knows she can't totally sneak up; that wrong handed knife trick was planned from the start.

But as to how she got so close... well, they had her sneak up on Jon in exactly the same spot in a previous ep. Plus, they spent a good 5 minutes in winterfell showing how Arya was creeping about the wights, and made a point of showing that blood drops hitting the floor were louder than she was moving about.

She may not have pulled a face swap but she used all her other tricks to get there - even the yell when she pounced was likely to make him turn around so she could stab him properly - intentionally or not, right where the flint that created him went.

[Cause]

I was actually thinking that we were going to see bran suddenly stand up from his chair and stab the NK and then we would see a faceless body next the chair.

Whether bran had agreed or not I couldn't guess but that was my best thought on how Arya faceless powers could get the NK. Instead it seems she literally just kept through a hundred zombies.

[Zuzu Bolin]

I can understand the hate this ep has generated given how invested so many people are in the series. But really the show runners imo have done an amazing job given how the show has gone from book based to not the last few seasons.

In terms of this episode the main issues seem to be;

a Dothraki lemming like to the slaughter
b None of the A list characters dying
c Night King death.


a The battle tactics were terrible but so what, shit happens - look at the way troops were used in WWII. Actually the Dothraki reminded me of us during the Charge of the Light Brigade. And of course this is medieval times, way before the 1800s

b Yeah, this was silly really but they are just saving them all for the final battle.

c He had to die in this episode because if not his army has trebled and all is lost. The ww security detail were very Lakers/Cavs like over reliant on Lebron, not defense orientated - but Arya has spent virtually seven season homing her stealth craft - I had no issues with her making the kill.

[Khellendros]

The was Arya disguised as one of the White Walkers thing: That’s not the way I interpreted that scene. The way it looked to me, the WW turning its head is an indication that they know Arya is there, but they simply don’t care. She hasn’t successfully snuck past them, but they don’t believe she can harm them, much like they just let Theon charge at the NK. The NK plucks Arya out of the air as she’s leaping toward him, again showing that he knew she was coming. Basically, they underestimate her in the same way plenty have done before.

[blackzoid]

Not sure how to feel about the episode.
Getting a real Babylon 5 season 4 vibe from this season, the major overwhelming threat is over almost too-suddenly (Shadow/Vorlon war aka White Walkers) and now whats left is to handle affairs at home (Earth Civil war aka Cersei/Iron Throne).

[champ]

Khellendros, on 30 April 2019 - 09:38 AM, said:

The was Arya disguised as one of the White Walkers thing: That's not the way I interpreted that scene. The way it looked to me, the WW turning its head is an indication that they know Arya is there, but they simply don't care. She hasn't successfully snuck past them, but they don't believe she can harm them, much like they just let Theon charge at the NK. The NK plucks Arya out of the air as she's leaping toward him, again showing that he knew she was coming. Basically, they underestimate her in the same way plenty have done before.

If that was the case then there would be no point of the Melisandre and Ayra conversation where she mentions that she can turn into someone with “blue eyes.”

[Gorefest]

Not turn into; kill.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Gorefest, on 30 April 2019 - 10:41 AM, said:

Not turn into; kill.

That's what I thought it was too - as in a call back to when Mel ran into Arya in the Riverlands and said something the same/similar.

[QuickTidal]

rant, on 30 April 2019 - 02:10 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 29 April 2019 - 06:48 PM, said:

You put WAY too much thought into your own hoop jumping to make it work the way you wanted it to work man.

This was great TV. No one will convince me otherwise.

I'll try!!

First lets just to get this out of the way. I think you rely too greatly on a "logistics of television" argument. In your hands, it appears more like a hammer than a chisel. I get the impression that anyone who thinks differently than you just doesn't really get the $ behind GOT.

It's really not that. I'm not trying to be a know-it-all. This stuff comes from those who work in TV production and film production that are good friends, and $ is a pretty huge factor in logistics of how things are laid out for them. You can always tell which episodes they throw the budget at (Battle of Winterfell/The Long Night) and which ones they scrimp and save on to be able to do that (A Knight of The Seven Kingdoms). I'm not asking anyone to believe me out of hand here, but these are not nothing numbers. HBO cancelled both DEADWOOD and ROME because they were prohibitively expensive, not because they were unpopular. So yes, when they do a 'holding pattern/give you some enjoyment with these people before we kill them' episode, sure it fits narratively, but it's also because they know they spent a huge amount on what was about to come. Digital and practical effects on the dragons ALONE for the episode would be staggering from a budget perspective as I do believe this is the most they've ever been present in one episode. This episode also featured thousands of extras, nearly every single paid/named actor on the same damned shooting days, and sundry other monetary logistics. This was not a cheap episode and unless something crazy happens between now and the end of the series, I'll put good money down on it being top 3 most expensive eps in 8 seasons. People are welcome to believe that is not the case, no one is stopping them. I also realized right off the bat I'm on the opposing opinion of most here, so I know I'km not changing minds. It is what it is.

rant, on 30 April 2019 - 02:10 AM, said:

My problem with this is that I don't think that we've yet found evidence for your 'logistics of television' argument.
15 years ago, could anyone argue about the $ associated with an episode of TV when an episode of The Crown costs $10 million?
The logistics of television are whatever the realities of television dictate.

I'm not talking out of my ass here though: GoT eps this season range 15million and up....but add in the effects and the cast present (as this article points out) ups that cost for that one ep considerably.. So, you have location, pyro, practical, digital effects, crew, and a cast that includes 10-15 regulars all on set at the same time for the same hours give or take. That's a MASSIVE monetary undertaking for one episode. Again, barring something else happening, this was where they spent the lions share of the reported 90million (not including digital effects costs apparently) for the season.

rant, on 30 April 2019 - 02:10 AM, said:

So, a main criticism for many of us is that the battle tactics sucked. Like completely. You are content to let them slide, which is fine I suppose, but alot of people weren't. It hurt the experience for us.

Cool. Cool cool cool. Shrug?

Also "let them slide" is not what I did. I should have been more clear. I DID NOT NOTICE. Like even a little bit. The episode sucked me right into the story. I was not standing back and analyzing battle tactics in the slightest. I have opinions on them after the fact, but I was not pulled out in any way shape or form.

rant, on 30 April 2019 - 02:10 AM, said:

The issue isn't that they lost (or won a Pyrrhic victory). Its how they lost. As impressive as everything we saw was, it could have been more impressive, it could have been coole.r Dothraki trying to flank an unflankable enemy.....Unsullied holding back an unstoppable enemy, small individual wars on the walls as each turret is defended until death....etc. etc. But they chose really random tactics, tactics that seemed designed to get characters into the plot points they were wanted in. (Tactics born of very little understanding of warfare)

I don't want any of the things you mentioned though. I WANTED the Dothraki to go out like little ants to the horde. We heard so much about them being this crazy force that Dany had at her beck and call..and they were fucking useless against this threat. I liked that.

rant, on 30 April 2019 - 02:10 AM, said:

I've seen decent arguments as to why (e.g. Worry stated above that maybe they just don't have battle experience (they ARE like all 20 year olds....., Jaime should be in charge), decisions happened like they did ....tactics existed to serve plot points (but they didn't have to! What if all those glorious last stands were our heroes protecting archers from attack, etc/, etc), rather than vice versa.

And why not the way it happened? Like I get you didn't personally like it (and others didn't either)....but why can't it be this way? I liked it this way.

rant, on 30 April 2019 - 02:10 AM, said:

Regardless, an episode (or 7 mins of one) of them actually defining their defenses and why they were presented as such ( I may not agree with using Bran as bait...but at least we know its happening.
) would be ideal. So lets say that they just need to hold onto Winterfell until the dragons toast all the wights. There are 100k+ wights, so this will take a while. Especially affter Nigh King starts blizzard. etc. etc. Cue rest of episode ( tho stop Theons dumb charge)

Theon knew he was dead. He was forgiven by the person left on the planet that he wronged (Bran) and told what he'd wanted to hear for so many years (That he was a good man)...so he decided to go out in a blaze of glory at the last. He knew he wasn't getting anywhere near the NK....but he was like "Fuck it, I'ma go out on MY terms".

Look, I don't mind at all that you lot didn't like this. But I re-watched it last night and if anything, my enjoyment of it grew even more. I'm fine being the contrary opinion about it. Not the first time that's happened, nor will it be the last.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 30 April 2019 - 01:12 PM

[blackzoid]

Hmm, thinking about it more I would have preferred the showrunners to follow less the Tolkien way, aka Saurons defeat and Scouring of the Shire as two distinct elements and more the Steve Erikson way, aka convergence of the two storylines, the White Walkers and the Iron Throne as a huge finale. Or at least bring the White Walkers past the neck so that they interact with the people of the South and dont remain some sort of Northern only myth.

However, the way to do that would have been best to start with changes made to Season 7 so its a bit late now. Dany doesnt go to the North and starts her war with Cersei in the South and remains there, so that Jon and the rest are forced to abandon the North and retreat to the South. Dont know how the Night King gets past the Wall without his Ice Dragon though.

I just really wanted that big Ice Creep in the opening credits to get as far as Kings Landing. Maybe a 3-sided finale with Dany/Jon versus White Walkers versus Cersei would have been great.

Doesnt the books have some sort of prophecy or such to say that the final battle takes place at the Trident?

EDIT: A comment from reddit I saw that hit me: "Walder Frey did more damage to the main cast than the White Walkers."

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 30 April 2019 - 02:39 PM

[amphibian]

There are several extremely skilled war commanders at Winterfell. There's the Bronze Yohn (who was a better fighter than Need Stark in his youth), Brienne, Jaime, Jorah, the Dothraki leaders, Greyworm and the other commanders of the Unsullied etc.

The tactics displayed in the battle are so bad that there are articles and posts on Wired and Reddit by military people listing how awful they were. And they're right. We're right here too.

You can ignore whatever you want to, but there is essentially no way that this was "smart" or "just a plan to draw out the Night King".

The budget doesn't necessarily dictate that the battle happens as such. The horse do not need to be featured beyond the flank actions. The trebuchets get swapped to the rear of the infantry. The Unsullied fight behind the main trench etc. We aren't proposing an hour of CGI dragons fighting. We're saying that if they rearranged the bits of CGI they did and reposition people, it would look and feel a hell of a lot better than the dumb shit that made the screen.

But you liked it and therefore there's no valid critique to be made.

[Tapper]

D, on 29 April 2019 - 07:10 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 29 April 2019 - 07:04 PM, said:

Now it's everyone VS Cersei, just as Game pf Thrones was always meant to be.

Game of Thrones should never have ended up as any form of "everyone vs ______".

Much depends on how the show deals with the post-battle circumstances: we expect Daenerys vs Cersei, but if the showrunners want (I don't think so, but hey), they could easily add third party pro-AegJon shenanigans, who is after all the first in line. If the Throne comes before the boy for Daenerys, she simply cannot let Jon live in Westeros. If she marries him, he'd still be the first in line. Even if does not want to be king, others (Sansa?) could push for it/ could raise banners in his name: Sansa already said the North wouldn't bow to Dany.

[Tapper]

amphibian, on 30 April 2019 - 02:30 PM, said:

There are several extremely skilled war commanders at Winterfell. There's the Bronze Yohn (who was a better fighter than Need Stark in his youth), Brienne, Jaime, Jorah, the Dothraki leaders, Greyworm and the other commanders of the Unsullied etc.

The tactics displayed in the battle are so bad that there are articles and posts on Wired and Reddit by military people listing how awful they were. And they're right. We're right here too.

You can ignore whatever you want to, but there is essentially no way that this was "smart" or "just a plan to draw out the Night King".

The budget doesn't necessarily dictate that the battle happens as such. The horse do not need to be featured beyond the flank actions. The trebuchets get swapped to the rear of the infantry. The Unsullied fight behind the main trench etc. We aren't proposing an hour of CGI dragons fighting. We're saying that if they rearranged the bits of CGI they did and reposition people, it would look and feel a hell of a lot better than the dumb shit that made the screen.

But you liked it and therefore there's no valid critique to be made.

It isn't the first time tactics were doing more damage than good. That aside, I still wonder how the showrunners can let Jorah demonstrate to a Dothraki how well plate armor works versus slashing weapons, and yet everyone who wields a straight sword, does so in wild slashing arcs (the straight sword having a larger point of impact compared to a curved sword thus less penetration through impact) in the culture that spawned said plate armor.