[worry]

Very interesting take on the episode imo: https://lareviewofbo...ones-the-bells/

[Cause]

worry, on 15 May 2019 - 04:16 AM, said:

Very interesting take on the episode imo: https://lareviewofbo...ones-the-bells/

If they not trolling thats very scary.

Its like reading an apology for Hitler.

Killing all those people was in fact a rational act?

[Maark Abbott]

This series is now called Throneslight for promising so much and disappointing so badly.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Cause, on 15 May 2019 - 07:22 AM, said:

worry, on 15 May 2019 - 04:16 AM, said:

Very interesting take on the episode imo: https://lareviewofbo...ones-the-bells/

If they not trolling thats very scary.

Its like reading an apology for Hitler.

Killing all those people was in fact a rational act?

Ignoring all that for a moment, I found the stance of "Everything D&D said in Inside the Episode is stupid and wrong" a bit odd. They're the writers - they're talking about what they've written. Just because you don't like their reasoning doesn't mean you get to completely dismiss it to fit your narrative, surely?

[Aptorian]

Had a talk with a co-worker. His major complaint about the last episode is that they made the two Danish actors kill each other.

In retrospect I wholeheartedly agree.

[Gorefest]

If you think that's bad, they just made one Dutch actor vanish into thin air (Daario Naharis) and another just collapse in a heap of ancientness for unclear reasons (Mellissandre).

[worry]

Cause, on 15 May 2019 - 07:22 AM, said:

worry, on 15 May 2019 - 04:16 AM, said:

Very interesting take on the episode imo: https://lareviewofbo...ones-the-bells/

If they not trolling thats very scary.

Its like reading an apology for Hitler.

Killing all those people was in fact a rational act?

Reading the article (purely) as Dany apologia seems off base, whether you agree or disagree with its thesis. It’s an exposition of the ep through the frame of power. ‘Rational’ is in contrast to ‘mad’ isn’t it?

@RBB well, if theirs is the least interesting perspective, why not ignore it? Or at least explore alternatives. Several in this thread already believe Dany decided her course of action before the bells rang. They may have interesting takes on whether her rationale then, as they read it, makes sense or is compelling.

Plus there’s five more days until the finale. What are we gonna do, *not* keep talking about this episode till then? No way Jose.

[Cause]

It bothers me that they unsullied are still seemingly so blindingly loyal. Killing the slavemasters, sure. Killing the undead army, had to be done but half of us died. Killing everyone in kings landing including women and children because their queen is a tyrant amd she killed missandre? Sure I guess, I mean greyworm was hot for her.....

The unsullied don't really seem to have benefitted from their freedom and in fact just seem to be blindly loyal killing amchines at this point. The book hasn't really covered this either. I used to half suspect that at one point GRRM would give us a point of view showing that because of their conditioning the unsullied still view themselves as Danny's slaves they just go along with her fantasy that they are free because she told them too. Don't think that's actually the case but its just puzzling that they have literally sustained over fifty percent casualties fighting for strangers and none of them see to mind.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

worry, on 15 May 2019 - 10:21 AM, said:

@RBB well, if theirs is the least interesting perspective, why not ignore it? Or at least explore alternatives. Several in this thread already believe Dany decided her course of action before the bells rang. They may have interesting takes on whether her rationale then, as they read it, makes sense or is compelling.

Plus there's five more days until the finale. What are we gonna do, *not* keep talking about this episode till then? No way Jose.

Don't think I phrased my point very well - sure, for the purposes of discussion we can all ignore/pay attention to whatever we want. Might have been me but there was just something in the way they made the statement seemed a bit "Our interpretation is right, and we're going to ignore the creators saying clearly otherwise."

Probably worth noting that I haven't watched the Inside the Episode - I watched the first couple and didn't particularly enjoy them, so I'm probably not giving their point a fair crack of the whip anyway.

I'm in the pre-attack decision camp myself after all. I dunno, could just be a tone thing from the article that rubbed me up the wrong way!

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 15 May 2019 - 10:28 AM

[champ]

I just thought that it was more “for the purpose of this discussion we’ll…”

[Primateus]

Aptorian, on 15 May 2019 - 08:59 AM, said:

Had a talk with a co-worker. His major complaint about the last episode is that they made the two Danish actors kill each other.

In retrospect I wholeheartedly agree.

I agree as well. I was half expecting Margrethe to turn up and show her displeasure.

[Cause]

worry, on 15 May 2019 - 10:21 AM, said:

Cause, on 15 May 2019 - 07:22 AM, said:

worry, on 15 May 2019 - 04:16 AM, said:

Very interesting take on the episode imo: https://lareviewofbo...ones-the-bells/

If they not trolling thats very scary.

Its like reading an apology for Hitler.

Killing all those people was in fact a rational act?

Reading the article (purely) as Dany apologia seems off base, whether you agree or disagree with its thesis. It’s an exposition of the ep through the frame of power. ‘Rational’ is in contrast to ‘mad’ isn’t it?

'Daenerys is not the “mad queen.” She is certainly not in a great place at the moment, but not only does she have a history of murdering her enemies with a gruesome calmness — as she did last night — I want to propose that her current problem is not a lack of rationality. Her problem, if it is a problem, is that she thinks killing her enemies is fine, and she allows herself to decide who her enemies are, and she’s decided that people we like (and, also, generalized innocent people) are her enemies'


Mad people don't think they are mad. They have rational (to them) reasons for doing what they do. Their madness is that within 3 standard deviations of 'normal' no one else agrees with them. She burnt a city of 1 million people alive to kill Cersei, teach the people of Westeros to fear her and make sure she is never challenged again. And... to protect all future generations against tyrants! Say what?

She is now a tyrant. Slavery is over... so long as all free people obey her. She killed more than 1 out of 7 of her future potential subjects I'd argue. Rather then secure her rule we can be confident that most of the westerosi around her now want her dead. Just because she acted rationally to her mind, or even to her past character does not make what she did rational.

and

Who are Daenerys’s enemies? The answer is incredibly easy, despite Tyrion’s soft-hearted words about hostages and enemies: anyone who opposes her is an enemy, anyone who does not bend the knee. She kills enemies, allies, and bystanders when they refuse to bend the knee; this has been true of her for a long time and has continued to be true. When Varys betrays her, he becomes her enemy and she kills him; when the people of King’s Landing fail to reject Cersei and bend the knee to Daenerys, they become her enemies and she kills them; when Sansa, Arya, Jon, and Tyrion betrayed her, they became her enemies and she will kill them, or try.

The city had surrendered, they had bent the knee. She killed them all anyway to prove her power. She is mad, if not mad evil.

This post has been edited by Cause: 15 May 2019 - 10:48 AM

[Maark Abbott]

"I want a better world, a world where everyone can be free and safe and happy, also I'm mad now and I'm going to lolkill a bunch of people"

[QuickTidal]

Cause, on 15 May 2019 - 10:40 AM, said:

Slavery is over... so long as all free people obey her.

This bit CAN'T be overstated. This is 100% what comes of 8 seasons of her decisions, and a now lack of advisors to curb her murderous, tyrannical instincts. She's freed the people, Huzzah!....but fucks sake, do NOT cross her in any way, and you better bend the knee....otherwise it's the boo box for you.

[Maark Abbott]

QuickTidal, on 15 May 2019 - 12:39 PM, said:

Cause, on 15 May 2019 - 10:40 AM, said:

Slavery is over... so long as all free people obey her.

This bit CAN'T be overstated. This is 100% what comes of 8 seasons of her decisions, and a now lack of advisors to curb her murderous, tyrannical instincts. She's freed the people, Huzzah!....but fucks sake, do NOT cross her in any way, and you better bend the knee....otherwise it's the boo box for you.

Ben D Knee and his cousin William D Walle. Wonder what links them

[D'rek]

Cause, on 15 May 2019 - 10:40 AM, said:

worry, on 15 May 2019 - 10:21 AM, said:

Cause, on 15 May 2019 - 07:22 AM, said:

worry, on 15 May 2019 - 04:16 AM, said:

Very interesting take on the episode imo: https://lareviewofbo...ones-the-bells/

If they not trolling thats very scary.

Its like reading an apology for Hitler.

Killing all those people was in fact a rational act?

Reading the article (purely) as Dany apologia seems off base, whether you agree or disagree with its thesis. It’s an exposition of the ep through the frame of power. ‘Rational’ is in contrast to ‘mad’ isn’t it?

'Daenerys is not the “mad queen.” She is certainly not in a great place at the moment, but not only does she have a history of murdering her enemies with a gruesome calmness — as she did last night — I want to propose that her current problem is not a lack of rationality. Her problem, if it is a problem, is that she thinks killing her enemies is fine, and she allows herself to decide who her enemies are, and she’s decided that people we like (and, also, generalized innocent people) are her enemies'


Mad people don't think they are mad. They have rational (to them) reasons for doing what they do. Their madness is that within 3 standard deviations of 'normal' no one else agrees with them. She burnt a city of 1 million people alive to kill Cersei, teach the people of Westeros to fear her and make sure she is never challenged again. And... to protect all future generations against tyrants! Say what?

She is now a tyrant. Slavery is over... so long as all free people obey her. She killed more than 1 out of 7 of her future potential subjects I'd argue. Rather then secure her rule we can be confident that most of the westerosi around her now want her dead. Just because she acted rationally to her mind, or even to her past character does not make what she did rational.

and

Who are Daenerys’s enemies? The answer is incredibly easy, despite Tyrion’s soft-hearted words about hostages and enemies: anyone who opposes her is an enemy, anyone who does not bend the knee. She kills enemies, allies, and bystanders when they refuse to bend the knee; this has been true of her for a long time and has continued to be true. When Varys betrays her, he becomes her enemy and she kills him; when the people of King’s Landing fail to reject Cersei and bend the knee to Daenerys, they become her enemies and she kills them; when Sansa, Arya, Jon, and Tyrion betrayed her, they became her enemies and she will kill them, or try.

The city had surrendered, they had bent the knee. She killed them all anyway to prove her power. She is mad, if not mad evil.

I totally agree, but the problem for me is that all her interactions are so stoic and bland that this doesn't come through much. She needs more big hypocritical speeches that put the above into her words (and contrast her aloud ideals with her actual actions). Like, Robert was something of an absolutist, too, but his character was so much more vivid and alive that his hypocrisy felt far more genuine than Dany's does.

[Mezla PigDog]

It won't take her long to fly to Winterfell and raze it to the ground...

[Cause]

Mezla PigDog, on 15 May 2019 - 02:31 PM, said:

It won't take her long to fly to Winterfell and raze it to the ground...

It take 0.1 episodes to cross the map of westeross

[Nevyn]

I would say that the author is wrong in his assertion that she is rational, for reasons that Cause stated, and because the author had to tell you to ignore interpretation from the people who wrote the episode as well.

But that doesn't make the argument apologist or scary. Arguing mad or not when all are agreed the act is fundamentally immoral is really just a sideshow.


But the author falls down because while the motive for such an act can be seen as rational (dominating through fear others that you have concluded will in no other way follow you), rationality also requires that someone weigh the outcome against the goal ("is it worth it?" and this clearly violates Dany's heretofore morality) , and also weigh the adverse consequences (in this case that while now it is unlikely she will be openly opposed or rejected or rebelled against, it also guarantees attempts to kill her, as she has made it both a moral and perhaps existential imperative).

[Nevyn]

Mezla PigDog, on 15 May 2019 - 02:31 PM, said:

It won't take her long to fly to Winterfell and raze it to the ground...

Until Bran wargs Drogon and decides to fly upside down.