[QuickTidal]

Gorefest, on 14 May 2019 - 02:36 PM, said:

the Targs don't have some sort of mythical age-old claim on it

Ummm...

Targs Reign on the Iron Throne from the first king (nearly 300 years) on it:

1–37 AC: King Aegon I, also known as "Aegon the Conqueror" and "Aegon the Dragon"
37–42 AC: King Aenys I
42–48 AC: King Maegor I, also known as "Maegor the Cruel"
48–103 AC: King Jaehaerys I, also known as "Jaehaerys the Conciliator", "Jaehaerys the Wise" and "The Old King"
103–129 AC: King Viserys I
129–131 AC: King Aegon II, also known as "Aegon the Usurper" and "Aegon the Elder"
131–157 AC: King Aegon III, also known as "Aegon the Dragonbane", "Aegon the Unlucky" and "The Broken King"
157–161 AC: King Daeron I, also known as "The Young Dragon"
161–171 AC: King Baelor I, also known as "Baelor the Blessed" and "Beloved Baelor"
171–172 AC: King Viserys II
172–184 AC: King Aegon IV, also known as "Aegon the Unworthy"
184–209 AC: King Daeron II, also known as "Daeron the Good"
209–221 AC: King Aerys I
221–233 AC: King Maekar I
233–262 AC: King Aegon V, also known as "Aegon the Unlikely"
262–281 AC: King Aerys II, also known as "The Mad King" and "King Scab"

Baratheons (22 years)

281–298 AC: King Robert I, also known as "The Usurper" and "The Stag King"
298–301 AC: King Joffrey I, also known as "Joffrey the Illborn"
301–303 AC: King Tommen I, also known as "The Boy King"

Lannisters (2 years)

303–305 AC: Queen Cersei I, also known as "Cersei the Lioness"

So I mean...if anyone has a historical claim...it's the Targs.

[Gorefest]

Tattersail_, on 14 May 2019 - 02:41 PM, said:

Does anyone else have an army that can oppose him now if he becomes King?

Yes, assuming that he won't have any dragons, Dothraki or Unsullied in his corner. Dorne will have a bigger army (although they may actually get behind him because of his Targaryen roots), as will the Tyrells. But yeah, Jon on the throne does seem to be the inevitable conclusion to the series. Which is fine. My point was that along the way in the past 2 seasons they've basically dumped or will neglect to round off a significant proportion of the story threads and plots that they introduced in the first 4-6 seasons.

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 14 May 2019 - 02:20 PM, said:

...

Abyss, on 14 May 2019 - 02:09 PM, said:

Varys... meh. There used to be the suggestion there was a cabal behind Varys who wanted 'what was best for the kingdom', but all we got here was one sneaky guy whose bestest friend had a crisis of conscience.

I did like the VERY subtle context of his conversation with the little girl. "She's not eating" and Varys makes a frowny face....because he was trying to POISON HER (Dany). I missed that context on my first watch.

That was the implication i took... could have also just been the suggestion that Dany was going bugnuts.

[Nevyn]

Gorefest, on 14 May 2019 - 02:36 PM, said:

Tattersail_, on 14 May 2019 - 02:20 PM, said:

Initial's for his father and mother.

I know what it means, obviously. I just mean that it seems utterly pointless now in how things are playing out.

It is pointless other than it has driven a fair bit of action as well. Jon telling the secret to Dany starts the wheels going for her madness, as she both sees a person with a better claim to the throne, and one who is far more popular (even though he is bloody useless and should not be more popular).

And the alternative existing is what gets Varys scheming. I suppose you could argue he would otherwise scheme for Gendry, but being that Gendry was only legitimized by Dany, that would be a tricky argument. He's also not really very likely to be rallied behind.

Now, in general I agree. They set Jon up with a somewhat Messianic backstory and prophecy, and then his role is to be really noble, make bad decisions, and get bailed out by other characters in a way that results in the right pieces being in place. But we can't say his lineage has not mattered. Its just that it matters politically more than prophetically.

Quote

Quote

He is the rightful heir to the throne, so there should be no dispute if Varys has sent out all his little birds/messages.

He is only the rightful heir if you accept that the Targs are somehow 'meant' to sit on the throne. In that case he does have the best claim. But the throne has changed hands multiple time through conquest and the Targs don't have some sort of mythical age-old claim on it. The last rightful sitters by conquest are the Baratheons, which makes Gendry the rightful ruler. If you accept the conquest angle, it is Dany who leads the troops who capture the throne back so she is now the rightful ruler. Jon being the direct descendant of Rhaegar doesn't mean much anymore in that respect. He has done nothing to make a difference, really. Arya killed the NK, Dany destroyed Cersei and King's Landing. Jon did...what? Look forlorn and emo. The citizens of Westeros should be glad that he doesn't want the throne; he'd be downright useless on it.

The show kind of muddied this all up when they made Cersei able to take power with no kids remaining.

But conquest or no conquest, it is not about who is meant to sit on the throne, but who has the best claim. And the books are loosely based on England, making primogeniture pretty important. So when it comes to others in that world falling behind a leader, Jon being a man, and eldest surviving son of eldest son in Dany's old family, to most in the 7K would have a better claim than Dany. Jon also being related to another of the high houses, in a kingdom apt to break away otherwise, gets extra strength to his claim.

Even Robert, who won the throne through leadership of the rebellion, also was perceived to have a strong claim because his family had blood ties to the Targaryen dynasty.

Now none of that says Dany can't just win through conquest, having loyal armies and a dragon. But Jon's lineage is a major threat to her acceptance by the lords of Westeros. Which is likely a big part of why she has decided on a reign of terror instead. She wants the land to obey her because they fear her, because she has decided that they won't otherwise accept her.

[champ]

I think we are being led to believe that it will be Arya to kill Dany but I think that is just a red herring and it'll be Jon who does it.

I can't see him wanting to sit on the throne after that but if Jon doesn't sit on the throne, who else is there really?!

[Tattersail_]

champ, on 14 May 2019 - 03:08 PM, said:

I think we are being led to believe that it will be Arya to kill Dany but I think that is just a red herring and it'll be Jon who does it.

I can't see him wanting to sit on the throne after that but if Jon doesn't sit on the throne, who else is there really?!

Sansa

[Nevyn]

QuickTidal, on 14 May 2019 - 02:20 PM, said:

I did like the VERY subtle context of his conversation with the little girl. "She's not eating" and Varys makes a frowny face....because he was trying to POISON HER (Dany). I missed that context on my first watch.

It was quite possible, given she also talked about the guards watching her, and Varys mentioned greater risks and rewards.


But it does seem out of sync with his letter writing. He would need to first make sure than Jon can rally support and win the throne if Dany is gone. So it could perhaps be that he had a plan to poison her, but not yet.

[Nevyn]

champ, on 14 May 2019 - 03:08 PM, said:

I think we are being led to believe that it will be Arya to kill Dany but I think that is just a red herring and it'll be Jon who does it.

I can't see him wanting to sit on the throne after that but if Jon doesn't sit on the throne, who else is there really?!

Jon Snow does nothing. Ever

[champ]

Nevyn, on 14 May 2019 - 03:09 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 14 May 2019 - 02:20 PM, said:

I did like the VERY subtle context of his conversation with the little girl. "She's not eating" and Varys makes a frowny face....because he was trying to POISON HER (Dany). I missed that context on my first watch.

It was quite possible, given she also talked about the guards watching her, and Varys mentioned greater risks and rewards.


But it does seem out of sync with his letter writing. He would need to first make sure than Jon can rally support and win the throne if Dany is gone. So it could perhaps be that he had a plan to poison her, but not yet.

I thought the implication of this was that he was trying to poison her too.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Nevyn, on 14 May 2019 - 03:02 PM, said:

The show kind of muddied this all up

Therein is your problem. I think with the right amount of time, set up and build (which I'm not sure D&D were ever capable of without the guidance of Martin's books) it would all have worked rather better.

FWIW the poison angle with Varys flitted through my head too - maybe it's the substitute direct action for him stabbing Kevan in aDWD.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Tattersail_, on 14 May 2019 - 03:09 PM, said:

champ, on 14 May 2019 - 03:08 PM, said:

I think we are being led to believe that it will be Arya to kill Dany but I think that is just a red herring and it'll be Jon who does it.

I can't see him wanting to sit on the throne after that but if Jon doesn't sit on the throne, who else is there really?!

Sansa

In the books, a 'Great Council is a council that is formed when the inheritance of the throne is unclear.' The lords vote... would they vote for a woman?

[D'rek]

Nevyn, on 14 May 2019 - 03:15 PM, said:

champ, on 14 May 2019 - 03:08 PM, said:

I think we are being led to believe that it will be Arya to kill Dany but I think that is just a red herring and it'll be Jon who does it.

I can't see him wanting to sit on the throne after that but if Jon doesn't sit on the throne, who else is there really?!

Jon Snow does nothing. Ever

That's why it will be "subversive"

But agreed, Arya won't do it, since she already killed the NK. But probably after having gone through that harrowing ordeal in King's Landing Arya will have a big heart-to-heart conversation 2 minutes of meaningful eye contact with Jon about the ordeal and that will persuade him to turn.

[Abyss]

Arya takes a shot at Dany, Jon stops her, Dany sets to dracarys Arya into cinders, Jon kills Dany, Jon fucks off to the North to hunt rabbits with Ghost, Sansa and Tyrion, already married, unite Stark and Lannister, Arya and Gendry unite Stark and Baratheon, 'the Game continues' but the story is over.

[QuickTidal]

Azath Vitr (D, on 14 May 2019 - 03:30 PM, said:

Tattersail_, on 14 May 2019 - 03:09 PM, said:

champ, on 14 May 2019 - 03:08 PM, said:

I think we are being led to believe that it will be Arya to kill Dany but I think that is just a red herring and it'll be Jon who does it.

I can't see him wanting to sit on the throne after that but if Jon doesn't sit on the throne, who else is there really?!

Sansa

In the books, a 'Great Council is a council that is formed when the inheritance of the throne is unclear.' The lords vote... would they vote for a woman?

Rumour over at Freefolk on Reddit is that this Council is exactly what occurs (post-Dany), and they choose:

Spoiler

Bran. Not joking. That's the strongest rumour I've heard.

And

Spoiler

That Jon goes north, takes the Black for having killed Dany, and stands as the 1000th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch....though who they are "watching" against now that the NK and WW are all dead is beyond me...but that's the rumour.

I gotta say, I would not be surprised if Jon didn't sit the Throne when all is said and done, but I'm not sure how to take the above rumour because I'm unsure how it would make any sense narratively...but maybe that's the point? I dunno.

[Gorefest]

Abyss, on 14 May 2019 - 03:40 PM, said:

Arya takes a shot at Dany, Jon stops her, Dany sets to dracarys Arya into cinders, Jon kills Dany, Jon fucks off to the North to hunt rabbits with Ghost, Sansa and Tyrion, already married, unite Stark and Lannister, Arya and Gendry unite Stark and Baratheon, 'the Game continues' but the story is over.

You forgot the epilogue scene in which Bran stares into the distance, then his eyes roll up to show the whites and he wargs into some ravens who fly out across the land. As they fly, the flock grows in size and then disperse across the seven kingdoms, from Winterfell to the Vale, to Dragonstone, Storm's End and highGarden, past Sunspear and Pyke. In each graveyard or killing field that they fly over, something starts stirring in the ground and in the final shot some skeletal hands break through the soil. The end.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Azath Vitr (D, on 14 May 2019 - 03:30 PM, said:

Tattersail_, on 14 May 2019 - 03:09 PM, said:

Sansa

In the books, a 'Great Council is a council that is formed when the inheritance of the throne is unclear.' The lords vote... would they vote for a woman?

Primogeniture and the male line has been shown to be virtually paramount in the 7K (aside from Dorne). Against Sansa being a woman there is:

The Northerners who are left, who might vote for her. The Vale might for similar reasons. If any of the Tullys and riverlanders are left they might.

House Lannister is destroyed (I can't see Tyrion making it out alive) so I don't know where that leaves the Westerlands as to who holds their vote now.

Dorne and the Reach (no idea who's ruling there now!) have no reason at all to vote for Sansa or indeed any of the characters remaining because they don't know them. Book Dorne is for House Targaryen but Dorne in the show has never paid more than a passing courtesy to resemblance of the Dorne of the books, so we can probably discount that.

Actually now I've written it out I think the bigger problem would be who to put on the Great Council (as in who's left?) rather than who said Council might pick.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 14 May 2019 - 03:47 PM

[Gorefest]

QuickTidal, on 14 May 2019 - 03:45 PM, said:

I gotta say, I would not be surprised if Jon didn't sit the Throne when all is said and done, but I'm not sure how to take the above rumour because I'm unsure how it would make any sense narratively...but maybe that's the point? I dunno.

Jon going to join the Nightwatch makes no sense, because there is no Nightwatch anymore. Unless my post above holds.

[Nevyn]

The last episode should be something like

Dany executes Tyrion.

Arya tries to kill Dany and Grey Worm kills her.

Dany blames Sansa and Jon and flies off to burn down Winterfell and kill everyone.

Jon tries to lead a revolt, and is killed by Dany's remaining armies.

The onion night and Gendry try to reason with Dany and she orders them killed. Grey Worm finally sees the madness and tries to intercede, and they all get Dracaris.

Dany sits in an iron throne in a ruined keep in an empty city, with ashes falling and Drogon flying overhead, mad queen of the ashes, queen of no one.

Roll credits.


It may be unlikely , but more satisfying that the seeming trajectory of Jon on the throne, which would mark the, what, 4th time he becomes leader of something against his will?

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 14 May 2019 - 03:52 PM

[QuickTidal]

Gorefest, on 14 May 2019 - 03:47 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 14 May 2019 - 03:45 PM, said:

I gotta say, I would not be surprised if Jon didn't sit the Throne when all is said and done, but I'm not sure how to take the above rumour because I'm unsure how it would make any sense narratively...but maybe that's the point? I dunno.

Jon going to join the Nightwatch makes no sense, because there is no Nightwatch anymore. Unless my post above holds.

Yes, I stated this in my post. Are you juts repeating me now?

[Gorefest]

Sorry, I must confess I skim-read that one. But that in itself surely means that either those Reddit rumours are pretty illogical, or the show has degenerated into being pretty illogical? So I don't understand how such rumours can have any persistence to them. I imagine this will have been pointed out countless times inside that thread as well.