[WhiskeyJohn]

Epic read, that ultimately felt watered down. That's my first impression.

Significant events have been brushed in few pages whereas we see significant page time for peripheral characters like Ullara, Greymane, Gregar and Heraj. Felt totally weird when I was expecting more information on Tool and the Imass. Shalmanat battle and fall of Li Heng was particularly disappointing.

I felt ICE tried to take on too much stuff and this books should have been a two parter if not a trilogy of its own. Shame this turned out to be the weakest book of the trilogy.

And who is Ullara? Why is she this important. I don't remember Beast Hold being that important too.

This post has been edited by WhiskeyJohn: 01 March 2019 - 03:06 PM

[Coltaine -]

Ullara is the girl from Dancer's Lament that saved Dorin/Dancer and later got blinded by a crimeboss.

The large number of only minimaly connected storylines did a good job at worldbuilding but really made this book the weakest of the trilogy. On the other hand I have the feeling, that ICE just pushed all these storylines into one book to get all the characters into the right places for the next one. It wouldn't be a good ending for a trilogy, but if his intent for this book was to serve as a bridge to the next one or the next trilogy, I'm okay with that.

And I guess Li Heng was again just a play with our expectations. No big battle, no magical duells. Just Kell telling his new bony friends: "There was a Jaghut. I'm sure. Please feel free to search to whole city for him." Or maybe it was also one of the gamed moments

[No One]

- Coltaine -, on 01 March 2019 - 05:30 PM, said:

Ullara is the girl from Dancer's Lament that saved Dorin/Dancer and later got blinded by a crimeboss.

The large number of only minimaly connected storylines did a good job at worldbuilding but really made this book the weakest of the trilogy. On the other hand I have the feeling, that ICE just pushed all these storylines into one book to get all the characters into the right places for the next one. It wouldn't be a good ending for a trilogy, but if his intent for this book was to serve as a bridge to the next one or the next trilogy, I'm okay with that.

And I guess Li Heng was again just a play with our expectations. No big battle, no magical duells. Just Kell telling his new bony friends: "There was a Jaghut. I'm sure. Please feel free to search to whole city for him." Or maybe it was also one of the gamed moments

There actually was a Jaghut. He screwed with Kel and Dancer a bit in Dancer's Lament. I had to search a bit to find that part because while reading DL it seemed pretty unimportant.

[Coltaine -]

No One, on 03 March 2019 - 02:14 AM, said:

- Coltaine -, on 01 March 2019 - 05:30 PM, said:

Ullara is the girl from Dancer's Lament that saved Dorin/Dancer and later got blinded by a crimeboss.

The large number of only minimaly connected storylines did a good job at worldbuilding but really made this book the weakest of the trilogy. On the other hand I have the feeling, that ICE just pushed all these storylines into one book to get all the characters into the right places for the next one. It wouldn't be a good ending for a trilogy, but if his intent for this book was to serve as a bridge to the next one or the next trilogy, I'm okay with that.

And I guess Li Heng was again just a play with our expectations. No big battle, no magical duells. Just Kell telling his new bony friends: "There was a Jaghut. I'm sure. Please feel free to search to whole city for him." Or maybe it was also one of the gamed moments

There actually was a Jaghut. He screwed with Kel and Dancer a bit in Dancer's Lament. I had to search a bit to find that part because while reading DL it seemed pretty unimportant.

Sure, I remember Juage. And I really like it that his presence in Li Heng has later concequences with the T'lan Imass. I was pointing out that the conquest of Li Heng was less epic than expected. But actually more funny

[WhiskeyJohn]

Did we see Ullara in the main BotF series? Or any reference to priestesses of Beast Hold?

[nacht]

WhiskeyJohn, on 05 March 2019 - 03:04 PM, said:

Did we see Ullara in the main BotF series? Or any reference to priestesses of Beast Hold?

It also introduces the Jheck, who are not significant players in the main series, but it just might be giving some closure to them since they were characters in Kharkanas trilogy. Maybe they will come back in the Karsa trilogy.
Setoc took the priestess role in MBotF.

[Tsundoku]

https://forum.malaza...ost__p__1365989

I liked the POVs and what he did with the plot, but ... too fast Cam!

Also liked the bit where the CG allowed Skinner and his ilk in, and you could see that's where it all started to go pear-shaped for them. Nicely done.
The same goes for setting up the later schism between dancer/Kell and Surly etc with the Talon and Claw. It seems like ICE put some real thought into how it got to be so through the 3 books, and how their various natures meant it would go that way.

Tays is growing on me.

Looking forward to the next ones - and I'm not normally a fan of prequels.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 19 March 2019 - 09:47 AM

[Giantblaze]

Have to say this book was a huge disappointment. Every time I really started to get into it something would happen that would pull me back out. There was a decent amount of build up but I feel like there really wasn't a payoff most of the time. Also all the hey this is how this character got this nickname thing didn't really feel natural it was more of a wink wink nudge nudge kind of thing and was just disappointing. I kind of feel like Greymane already had his nickname before this book too, I thought it was mentioned in Dancers Lament (will have to look that up when I find my copy of it).

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

I'm confused about the Jhek at the end, aren't they supposed to be in Lether? Did I miss Ullara getting on a boat? I thought she just walked. Or do they scattered over glaciers around the world?

[Coltaine -]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 07 April 2019 - 08:15 PM, said:

I'm confused about the Jhek at the end, aren't they supposed to be in Lether? Did I miss Ullara getting on a boat? I thought she just walked. Or do they scattered over glaciers around the world?

Apparently the Jheck exist on more continents than Lether. Maybe they got separated when the glaciers of the Jaghut retreated? They already existed during the time of FoD, so it would fit into the timeline.

[nacht]

- Coltaine -, on 07 April 2019 - 09:54 PM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 07 April 2019 - 08:15 PM, said:

I'm confused about the Jhek at the end, aren't they supposed to be in Lether? Did I miss Ullara getting on a boat? I thought she just walked. Or do they scattered over glaciers around the world?

Apparently the Jheck exist on more continents than Lether. Maybe they got separated when the glaciers of the Jaghut retreated? They already existed during the time of FoD, so it would fit into the timeline.

I wonder if there is a "Pangea" style split in the Malazan world between FoD and MbotF,. That could explain the Jheck got split off and isolated


https://en.wikipedia..._fossil_map.svg


The key question is "Do the maps of the different Malazan landmasses align?" Appeciate opinions from "map" experts
If they do, maybe the much feared Edgewalker was responsible in breaking up Burn (via a ritual of Diver's)

"There will be peace"

at any cost?

[Coltaine -]

nacht, on 08 April 2019 - 12:49 AM, said:

- Coltaine -, on 07 April 2019 - 09:54 PM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 07 April 2019 - 08:15 PM, said:

I'm confused about the Jhek at the end, aren't they supposed to be in Lether? Did I miss Ullara getting on a boat? I thought she just walked. Or do they scattered over glaciers around the world?

Apparently the Jheck exist on more continents than Lether. Maybe they got separated when the glaciers of the Jaghut retreated? They already existed during the time of FoD, so it would fit into the timeline.

I wonder if there is a "Pangea" style split in the Malazan world between FoD and MbotF,. That could explain the Jheck got split off and isolated


https://en.wikipedia..._fossil_map.svg


The key question is "Do the maps of the different Malazan landmasses align?" Appeciate opinions from "map" experts
If they do, maybe the much feared Edgewalker was responsible in breaking up Burn (via a ritual of Diver's)

"There will be peace"

at any cost?

You could definitly slam some of them together, but sadly I can't see something like Africa-South America. But it would be an interesting background story

[Lady Bliss]

Just finished my read!

I’m a bit mixed on my feelings. I enjoyed getting the backstory around someof our main characters, however it felt like the story jumped a bit inplaces. There were a few times that Ifound myself saying “wtf?! Did I justmiss something?”

Also where is the sex? No one is sleeping with anyone else? Seriously? You know Tay has someinner kink waiting to come out, and Surly needs to get laid BAD. What about the gay love affair between Dassemand Dancer that ultimately ended in bitterness and betrayal?!

[nacht]

Lady Bliss, on 11 April 2019 - 09:08 PM, said:

Just finished my read!

I'm a bit mixed on my feelings. I enjoyed getting the backstory around someof our main characters, however it felt like the story jumped a bit inplaces. There were a few times that Ifound myself saying "wtf?! Did I justmiss something?"

Also where is the sex? No one is sleeping with anyone else? Seriously? You know Tay has someinner kink waiting to come out, and Surly needs to get laid BAD. What about the gay love affair between Dassemand Dancer that ultimately ended in bitterness and betrayal?!

Ha ha, you have a point. Everybody was really uptight. That Tyrel dude must have been really miserable growing up

[Nevyn]

I liked it more than most of you.

But there are some challenges.

ICE continues to not be bound by previous stories and allusions to how things went.

And I don't think there is any weird adjustment resulting in where this ended. The way the whole thing was introduced it was fairly clear that the trilogy would culminate in the fall of Li Heng. And I think he intended to have the somewhat weird anti-climactic way that that went down as a bit of his own humour. He is having fun taking the legends of the old empire and Kellanved's brilliance and undermining it by having him barely around even at the beginning, and having him never really have to wade into anything.

The unfortunate part of that is it makes for a weird story arc, and it also generally sidelines Dancer. And since the malazan's really only get into one sideline naval battle with just Choss and Nekurian, you also don't get to wade into much action for Dujek, or Whiskeyjack, or Dassem.

But it still has its fun moments, explains better than the old way why the Imass were not used more than just Heng and Aren, and does a good job setting up Surly's frustration and eventual takeover.

[Nevyn]

Giantblaze, on 06 April 2019 - 06:41 AM, said:

Have to say this book was a huge disappointment. Every time I really started to get into it something would happen that would pull me back out. There was a decent amount of build up but I feel like there really wasn't a payoff most of the time. Also all the hey this is how this character got this nickname thing didn't really feel natural it was more of a wink wink nudge nudge kind of thing and was just disappointing. I kind of feel like Greymane already had his nickname before this book too, I thought it was mentioned in Dancers Lament (will have to look that up when I find my copy of it).

Grrr, when you mentioned that it reminded me. Greymane is referenced in Dancer's Lament, Buell talking to Silk.

And Fingers too. So that is now 2 origins after introductions. Someone needed better proofreading (the Fingers one can be explained away at least).

[cauthon]

The book felt much too crammed to me. And the major events felt like pretty minor, like getting the Imass throne. But I do sort of get that in the role-play, things may not have been as grand as "legends" would have us believe ... and that things actually may have been as simple as written down here.

- I did at some point think Gregar to be Whiskeyjack ... the stonemason reference being there and all. Note also the spelling difference, here it was Whiskyjack :/ Also, I thought he would get his name from Braven Tooth, no? And not from Cartheron.
- The entire Greymane line also felt as if the conclusion was rushed.
- I did like the Claw/Talon setup that was clearly well worked out
- I also liked the meeting with the Fallen one. But the subsequent meeting with the Moranth felt contrived, as well as the way they returned.

[FlynntMillit]

Some quick thoughts:
I thought WJ got his nickname from Dunsparrow

I enjoyed seeing surly pretty much already living up to her name in the BotF.

Overall though I'd agree ICE tried to answer too many questions about the rise of the Malazan Empire in this one book, and that lessened the impact of it

[Mentalist]

I have a feeling ICE is setting up his next work that will be focused on Crimson Guard and the Vow.

Their conflict with Malaz, the settlement of State and the first Korelri campaign are the remaining stories to be told

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 17 August 2020 - 01:15 AM