Malazan Empire: Twilight Imperium (Game 3) - Chat Thread - Malazan Empire

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Twilight Imperium (Game 3) - Chat Thread

#4801 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 01:51 PM

View PostTattersail_, on 24 June 2019 - 01:31 PM, said:

View PostD, on 24 June 2019 - 01:17 PM, said:

I was so-well setup to reach 12 VP during the next action phase, too (3VP in this status phase + speaker token for Imperial/Leadership + 2 ceasefires + unconquerable homeworld + diplo rider + able to score any new objectives). Alas. :)


Will you still post your status update? Just for interest :p


Fulfill the "2 of each tech colour" public objective (6 -> 8VP)
Fulfill the "control 4 hazardous planets" secret objective (8 -> 9VP)

Diplomacy Rider on ANTI-INTELLECTUAL REVOLUTION: AGAINST

Gain 3 CTs, 2 ACs, refresh planets, yadda yadda

16 votes for myself for IMPERIAL ARBITER.

Strategy Phase plan: If I get Arbiter, pick IMPERIAL SC, if Tapper QDHs me use the agenda to get it back. Otherwise, figure out if Tapper will QDH me if I pick IMPERIAL (Very likely, unless he is sure he can't reach 12 VP in action phase with it and also has a really good reason not to do his best to handicap me) and if he will take LEADERSHIP to reach 12VP at the start of next status phase instead.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#4802 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 01:54 PM

View PostTattersail_, on 24 June 2019 - 01:34 PM, said:

View PostD, on 24 June 2019 - 01:15 PM, said:

Final scores:

Imperial Historian / Mentak = 12
Gnaw / Nekro = 9
Morgoth / Letnev = 8
Tapper / Hacan = 8
D'rek / Jol-Nar = 7
Tattersail / Sol = 5
Twelve / Winnu = 5
Itwaes Nom / Arborec = 4
Blend / Muaat = 3


That's mad how the game ends abruptly like that. I'd have thought everyone put in their status and if two people reach the target then the one with lower initiative wins. You'd have had 10VP, I'd have liked to see Twelve's and Tapper's too.


Naaah. It's a race to X VP, and that race can be won by a hair. That's the game. It's what makes strategy card picks so important in the late game (hence me pushing hard to get speaker from gnaw this past round). And once you see Naalu pull off an amazing come-from-behind win with their 0-initiative trait you'll love the tension of it :)

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#4803 User is offline   twelve 

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 02:17 PM

View PostTattersail_, on 24 June 2019 - 01:05 PM, said:

Congratulations IH. You played a good game.

I've posted my status update even though it doesn't matter. I enjoyed this game very much, it could have went so differently if I did not try and get greedy so early. I know what mistakes I made and will try and do better next time.

And this is why I jumped all over the Mentak in game 1. Clearly this is D'rek and Morgoth's fault for waiting too long to put he pirates in their place.

Congrats IH you are clearly a master of this game.
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#4804 User is offline   twelve 

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 02:19 PM

View PostTattersail_, on 24 June 2019 - 01:34 PM, said:

View PostD, on 24 June 2019 - 01:15 PM, said:

Final scores:

Imperial Historian / Mentak = 12
Gnaw / Nekro = 9
Morgoth / Letnev = 8
Tapper / Hacan = 8
D'rek / Jol-Nar = 7
Tattersail / Sol = 5
Twelve / Winnu = 5
Itwaes Nom / Arborec = 4
Blend / Muaat = 3


That's mad how the game ends abruptly like that. I'd have thought everyone put in their status and if two people reach the target then the one with lower initiative wins. You'd have had 10VP, I'd have liked to see Twelve's and Tapper's too.

I'd have gotten to 8 this round as I was finally able to score a secret but alas IH didn't let me.
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#4805 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 02:21 PM

View Posttwelve, on 24 June 2019 - 02:17 PM, said:

View PostTattersail_, on 24 June 2019 - 01:05 PM, said:

Congratulations IH. You played a good game.

I've posted my status update even though it doesn't matter. I enjoyed this game very much, it could have went so differently if I did not try and get greedy so early. I know what mistakes I made and will try and do better next time.

And this is why I jumped all over the Mentak in game 1. Clearly this is D'rek and Morgoth's fault for waiting too long to put he pirates in their place.

Congrats IH you are clearly a master of this game.


Hey, IH and I fought plenty in the mid-game when IH was starting his VP lead! Morgoth could've taken advantage and attacked the other side, but nope he just sat there and kept funding IH... and then whined in the last round that it was too late for him to do anything.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#4806 User is offline   twelve 

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 02:27 PM

Yeah you are right it's 100% Morgoth's fault
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#4807 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 03:21 PM

Oh well, I'm done being salty :)

Congrats on the win IH! You played the Mentak very well!

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#4808 User is offline   Gnaw 

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 05:00 PM

View PostD, on 24 June 2019 - 01:17 PM, said:

I was so-well setup to reach 12 VP during the next action phase, too (3VP in this status phase + speaker token for Imperial/Leadership + 2 ceasefires + unconquerable homeworld + diplo rider + able to score any new objectives). Alas. :)


Assuming that IH kept his word about giving me his SftT I’d have been there with you. I’d have taken Diplomacy. That damn agenda might have fucked things up for both of us though.
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#4809 User is offline   Imperial Historian 

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 01:59 AM

View PostGnaw, on 24 June 2019 - 05:00 PM, said:

View PostD, on 24 June 2019 - 01:17 PM, said:

I was so-well setup to reach 12 VP during the next action phase, too (3VP in this status phase + speaker token for Imperial/Leadership + 2 ceasefires + unconquerable homeworld + diplo rider + able to score any new objectives). Alas. :)


Assuming that IH kept his word about giving me his SftT I’d have been there with you. I’d have taken Diplomacy. That damn agenda might have fucked things up for both of us though.


I'd have given it you. But I knew I'd probably won at that point, and just wanted to keep people not attacking me.
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#4810 User is offline   Imperial Historian 

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 02:05 AM

View PostD, on 24 June 2019 - 02:21 PM, said:

View Posttwelve, on 24 June 2019 - 02:17 PM, said:

View PostTattersail_, on 24 June 2019 - 01:05 PM, said:

Congratulations IH. You played a good game.

I've posted my status update even though it doesn't matter. I enjoyed this game very much, it could have went so differently if I did not try and get greedy so early. I know what mistakes I made and will try and do better next time.

And this is why I jumped all over the Mentak in game 1. Clearly this is D'rek and Morgoth's fault for waiting too long to put he pirates in their place.

Congrats IH you are clearly a master of this game.


Hey, IH and I fought plenty in the mid-game when IH was starting his VP lead! Morgoth could've taken advantage and attacked the other side, but nope he just sat there and kept funding IH... and then whined in the last round that it was too late for him to do anything.


To be fair to morgoth i made it very worth his while not to attack me by not looting him and giving him my sftt.

I really enjoyed the mentak soft power, the pillage ability in an 8 player game gives a huge amount of diplomatic power, coupled with mirror computing late game is a game changer.

I honestly thought I'd messed up, when the 2vp objectives were drawn as all the ones i couldn't complete but thankfully drew a good SO!

Looking forward to the next game!
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#4811 User is offline   Imperial Historian 

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 02:07 AM

Also d'rek you made me completely reassess the jol nar, wow those squid are powerful!
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#4812 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 06:26 AM

Congrats IH! Well played and well deserved.
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#4813 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 09:15 AM

So, I figured I'd share my thoughts on this game and Letnev.

The Letnev are by any definition the opposite of what I normally go for in a faction. Which is why I wanted to try them. I prefer manouveruability and flexibility over power in pretty much any game. The Letnev can field a terrifying fleet, theoretically the most formidable of all the factions I think. And the fleet supply power was much stronger than I originally thought. The armor is a god send. I picked my staring position on it's unrivaled production potential, but I overlooked how poor on influence it was, and that in combination with how stretched my area was really hampered me. It was a fundamental error that would haunt me for the whole game. I didn't have the tokens to move my ships between the different staging areas.

Still, I might have held out better if I hadn't rolled the dice on getting 6 points in one round. I knew the chance was almost purely theoretical, but I couldn't not try it. I also didn't expect twelve to be willing to immediately break an agreement in such a fashion. No lawyering or twisting, but straight up breaking his word right away. It surprised me, though I suppose it shouldn't have.

People got annoyed at Gnaw, but I think you guys were forgetting that I had given Gnaw the advantage in every deal we made, and that I explicitly chose not to attack him when he was stretched, something I clearly could have. I figured I'd be better off keeping our relationship friendly, and I was right. When push came to show Gnaw rewarded me for those choices and I think that's entirely fair. He had other options, and as you can see, in the end he even finished above me. A player not doing what you want doesn't mean he's not making his best choices.

IH and I was much the same. He gave me an advantage in our deal (I think), and in return I focused my energy elsewhere. I was right to, I think. I would not have been in a position to win that round if I hadn't made the choices I did. And If I had held off a round instead of throwing everything into that one throw I might have been at his heels at the end. IH's faction is the worst enemy of Letnev and I did not want that fight. I should probably have picked another faction, but I wanted to try the megafleet.

I really enjoyed D'reks play with the squids. She utilized them in a better and more interesting fashion than I've ever managed. If I ever play them again in the tabletop version I'll try to follow her lead. Poor tatts though, making all his convoluted deals when he should just have forced the issue.

I didn't really pay much attention to Tapper and twelve's sections. Poor Nom though. The Arborec right next to the Muaat is even worse than the Mentak next to the Letnev.
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#4814 User is offline   Khellendros 

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 10:41 AM

Mod perspective!

Overall, despite a few stalls, I thought the game had a good flow to it, with a number of factions seeing their fortunes rise and fall throughout. I think the only one who was steady throughout was Tapper, probably because everyone wanted to stay on the good side of the traders, and he didn’t show much expansionist ambition beyond the first couple of rounds.

I think that this was the first time we saw a group of factions really come together in effective cooperation to stop a threat (in this case, Morgoth), rather than shouting at others to stop it for them. Unfortunately, that wasn’t extended as well against IH, possibly because he was more isolated than Morgoth’s stretched position. I think D’rek did just about all she could, but coopting Morgoth’s help in taking down IH rather than others continuing to take his territories further apart was the only way IH could have been stopped. Though he did get lucky with the SO, nevertheless IH played a fantastic game throughout, I was seriously impressed. He played possum a lot, and wasn’t afraid to reverse policies after they had stopped being useful to him, such as breaking the alliance with D’rek and getting his Promise of Protection back. I don’t think he ever overstretched his resources, and Mirror Computing proved an incredibly powerful endgame ability.

D’rek and Morgoth were also excellent in their uses of both soft and hard power, and I thought that Gnaw stood an excellent chance of winning for most of the game, but ultimately changed his mind a little too often about what strategy to pursue. Blend and Nom were obviously the ones who ended up having the most difficult games, and it’s hard to judge what they could have done differently. I suppose the lesson from Blend and Tatts’ games is that no matter how secure you feel your alliance is, never leave your homeworld exposed, and both overstretched when perhaps they should have consolidated. I get that both felt they had to keep going as expansionist powers with a need for more resources/influence, so it’s a tricky balance to get right. As for Twelve, well, I’m finding hard to see how the Winnu can win in a 9-player game, that is a difficult race to prosper with. Also, his SOs were pretty much the worst :)

I also saw a lot of decisions being made without really taking into account how other players might react. It was like, “oh, I’ll do this then this then this”, with little consideration that eight other people will take their turns between each action and were unlikely to just stand around passively. It is difficult to take that into account, but the most effective strategies I saw were ones in which deals were formed before taking any action, and where most plans were at least semi out in the open. While cackling evilly to yourself in secret about what you intend to do is very much fun, other players generally didn’t take kindly to surprises.

This post has been edited by Khellendros: 25 June 2019 - 10:44 AM

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#4815 User is offline   Blend 

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 04:39 PM

Despite the mistake that basically fucked my game, and despite Gnaw being a horrible alliance member, I had a bunch of fun this game.

I honestly think Gnaw would have won this game if he hadn't decided to do what he did to me. I mean, I cost him a couple of fleets that I would never have even tried to do anything about if he hadn't completely wiped out my game over 1 resource. But such are the vagaries of the game!

I enjoyed Muaat, and I think that I would have a lot of fun playing them if I had a better starting position. Honestly, I don't think anyone could have really done much of anything with that starting position. I'll certainly give them another shot, but would also be interested to see someone else try them as well, to see how they play elsewhere.

This post has been edited by Blend: 25 June 2019 - 04:45 PM

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#4816 User is offline   Itwæs Nom 

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 04:58 PM

Aye the position was of my making, didn't seem that bad to me at the time...

I like the irony of how quickly that choice turned against me though
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#4817 User is offline   Blend 

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 05:03 PM

View PostItwæs Nom, on 25 June 2019 - 04:58 PM, said:

Aye the position was of my making, didn't seem that bad to me at the time...

I like the irony of how quickly that choice turned against me though


Honestly, I could just as easily have gone the other way at the start of the game. I just deemed you easier to keep hemmed in than Gnaw, plus the Supernova was there which was going to help me a bit later in the game, so your side seemed the safer route for me.

My fault was putting too much trust in Gnaw. Lessons learned!
There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived. ~ Anomander Rake
My sig comes from a game in which I didn't heed Blend's advice. So maybe this time I should. ~ Khellendros
I'm just going to have to come to terms with the fact that self-vote suiciding will forever be referred to as "pulling a JPK" now, aren't I? ~ JPK
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#4818 User is offline   twelve 

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 05:15 PM

My thoughts on Winnu and everything I've read are that they are one of if not the weakest race. Given that, I actually had a decent game this time around. I think if not for D'rek's pds shenanigans and Khell's interpretation of her Graviton Lazers provisional I would have grabbed Rex before Gnaw and Morgoth which I think was the biggest hit to my game. The next biggest hit was not grabbing politics the round I took Rex so I could get Imperial the next but I'm sure Gnaw would have blocked me from it like he tried with Nom. With Imperial this last round I had all the pieces to score 7 VP but needed everything to go right. But with the way Tatts attacked me it wouldn't have happened. But it's nice to know I had a path to a victory even though the final points didn't show it.
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#4819 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 05:15 PM

View PostBlend, on 25 June 2019 - 04:39 PM, said:

Despite the mistake that basically fucked my game, and despite Gnaw being a horrible alliance member, I had a bunch of fun this game.

I honestly think Gnaw would have won this game if he hadn't decided to do what he did to me. I mean, I cost him a couple of fleets that I would never have even tried to do anything about if he hadn't completely wiped out my game over 1 resource. But such are the vagaries of the game!

I enjoyed Muaat, and I think that I would have a lot of fun playing them if I had a better starting position. Honestly, I don't think anyone could have really done much of anything with that starting position. I'll certainly give them another shot, but would also be interested to see someone else try them as well, to see how they play elsewhere.


I'll wait until later to do a big ol' mental recap, but now that this game is over I think it'll be really interesting to see how our interaction meta evolves. Stuff like Gnaw doing that big attack seemingly out of contriteness, when it turned out he had an SO or two to fulfill from it, for example. Are we going to get more suspicious that seemingly unusual play is the result of SOs in the future? Are we going to be more cautious overall?

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#4820 User is offline   Gnaw 

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 05:41 PM

Just out of useless curiosity what would have been the next PO?
Summary much later given that I’ve got another game to start first but two easy thoughts for my game: don’t score SOs too early and don’t kick someone out of Rex just ‘cause you can.
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