[Mentalist]

Grief, on 01 March 2021 - 10:49 PM, said:

I find the extension of blackness, and the minority experience more generally, as some kind of universal shared experience fairly interesting in these debates.

Is the black experience of a Dutch native likely to be comparable to the black experience of an American writer in the first place?

I find that certain parts of the left have a tendency to mush every minority experience together on some level (whereby minorities of any kind are assumed to understand and sympathise with other minorities in a more authentic manner than the social majority).

In my view, this tendency is also one part of the left's struggle to respond effectively to certain political realities; whether the the working class anti-migrant Brexiteer or the cuban Trump voter.

In the artistic sphere, I put less and less stock by "authenticity" as any kind of metric.

yes, the American-centred discourse really skews things sometimes. I see this a lot in commentary regarding Eastern Europeans lacking a lot of racial sensitivity. But as someone who happened to grow up in Eastern Europe, it can be very hard to explain to people that back home, there is no universal, monolithic "white", because there's a long and entrenched history of "white" people oppressing their equally "white" neighbours that goes back many centuries,, and people tend to be wary (if not outright hating) others, despite everyone being "white". When you live in an area where less than 2 hours' drive in each direction there are people who speak a different language and are pretty convinced your hometown should belong to them, you grow up with different priorities, and a very different outlook on diversity, stereotypes and prejudice.

I am not saying that mistreating others is okay, btw- it isn't, in any circumstances, and we should universally strive to be better;

But part of that is understanding that different parts of the world did not have the exact same experience as the US, and even if a product is made for a global market, it's not always going to take up American sensibilities as "universal".

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'Samuel Vriezen
[...] oh come on, it's clear what happened: Meulenhoff suggested an author, contacted Gorman's agent, they agreed. I do not expect Gorman to have been aware of the fact that Rijneveld not only has zero experience in literary translation, as well as no background in spoken word, but also functionally no command of the English language.

Charles Kruger
How is it "clear"? It certainly isn't clear from the article. The article is pretty straightforward in its statement. If you are accusing the publisher of being intentionally misleading, on what basis do you say that? I'd be glad to hear any evidence[...]

[The Guardian claims: 'Meulenhoff said [...] Gorman, who is 22, had selected the 29-year-old herself, as a fellow young writer who had also come to fame early.' If Vriezen were right, that would be a major journalistic error. But Vriezen cleary seems biased against the publisher and Rijneveld... however, if any of their claims are accurate, they provide some interesting context.]

Samuel Vriezen
[...] we have the words from the publisher, and it's clear they are not in touch with Gorman herself about any of this, but with "Gorman's team". This is in fact how these things go: hotshot authors on that level do not directly work with publishers in relatively minor languages. [I don't find this convincing.]

But the main reason why it's impossible for anybody to "select" Rijneveld as a translator is that Rijneveld is in fact not a translator. There is no body of translations by Rijneveld on the basis of which such a selection could have happened in the first place. This makes it completely clear that the initiative could never have come from Gorman actively selecting her favorite Dutch poetry translator. And indeed that's how this works: the publisher buys the rights from an agent.

Now in this case, yes, there was an additional requirement: the translator had to be somebody who Gorman might like to be seen as identifying with. So we can assume that some sort of vetting process on the basis of identity position has happened. One would presume that Rijneveld's position as an internationally acclaimed, young, non-binary author will have helped here.

The problem arises because the translation is going to operate in a Dutch language context, where there are many interesting authors who identify more closely with Gorman in terms of background, but who are underacknowledged by the more prestigious publishing companies, such as Rijneveld's publisher. So that led to some debate, and Rijneveld then decided to withdraw - rightly so, I think.

[...] Rijneveld might well produce good translations some day; the fact that their English is abysmal (this is on record) suggests this will require some assistance. That said, I've read some of Rijneveld's poetry, and in terms of technical understanding of verse technique, I do not rate it very highly. The likelihood of Rijneveld becoming a good translator seems slim to me.

[...] Of course, the Michele Hutchinson translation of their first novel might have convinced Gorman that Rijneveld would have been the ideal translator. Somehow, I doubt it.

[...] I've translated many poets, people who do subtle and elaborate experimental work, but also people from hip hop/spoken word kinds of backgrounds and I was often struck by how much subtlety it demands on the part of a translator even as you translate things that seem at first weird and inconsistent if you should take too much of a "high poetry" view (for want of better ways of putting it). But there's often a sonic logic that produces everything, which can jump from the trite to the piercing, from the overly clear messaging to the bizarre twist, but everything is organized by the flow that gives the whole a lot of punch. And that's a major challenge for translation. Likewise I don't think Gorman's work is easy to translate at all.'

[Edit: I double-checked the Guardian article again and they did specify it was the publisher who claimed that Gorman had selected the translator herself. Still, unless the publisher's statement was egregiously misreported, Vriezen is accusing the publisher of lying, with no substantive evidence.]

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 03 March 2021 - 07:43 PM

[QuickTidal]

Samuel Vriezen sounds like a fucking asshole who operates off outrage.

He also takes a CLEAR dig at Rijneveld's talent at writing and even then technical aspects of the persons work.

This guy just wants to make a stink...and you can feel that wafting off the conversation.

Aside from that, unless Gorman herself learns Dutch...I fail to see how one dutch writer would be more worthy of translating the work over another because of cultural touchpoints Gorman (as a POC in America) is specifically aparty to.

The notion that one specifically gendered or ethnicity of dutch writer is going to be better than another at translating the work implies some sort of base layer cultural sameness between two people's art (which I'd argue could never be present anyways) and also implies that anyone without those exact touchstones would somehow do a bad job...which is fucking nonsense.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Vriezen implies the primary objection is that Rijneveld supposedly has no experience as a translator. But here's the Dutch headline for the opinion piece the Guardian reports 'led critics':

'Opinie: Een witte vertaler voor poëzie van Amanda Gorman: onbegrijpelijk

Niets ten nadele van Marieke Lucas Rijneveld, maar die schrijver is niet de beste persoon om poëzie van Amanda Gorman te vertalen: Black spoken word artists matter, ook van eigen bodem, betoogt Janice Deul.'

'Opinie' is 'opinion', 'Een witte' is 'a white', 'vertaler' translator, 'voor poëzie van Amanda Gorman:' 'for the poetry of Amanda Gorman': 'onbegrijpelijk' 'incomprehensible' (literally un-be-grip-able). Obviously 'Black spoken word artists matter' is in English.

Granted, sometimes opinion editor will come up with their own misleading headlines for op-eds. From the op-ed itself:

'Harvard-alumna Gorman, opgevoed door een alleenstaande moeder en wegens spraakproblemen gelabeld als 'special needs'-kind, omschrijft zichzelf als 'skinny Black girl'. En haar werk en leven zijn gekleurd door haar ervaringen en identiteit als zwarte vrouw. Is het dan – op z'n zachtst gezegd – niet een gemiste kans om Marieke Lucas Rijneveld in te huren voor deze job? Hen is wit, non-binair, heeft geen ervaring op dit gebied, maar is volgens Meulenhoff toch de "gedroomde vertaler"?

Harvard-alumna Gorman, 'opgevoed door een alleenstaande moeder' raised by a single mother 'en wegens spraakproblemen gelabeld als 'special needs'-kind' and due to speech problems labeled a special-needs child, 'describes herself as a 'skinny Black girl'. 'En haar werk' and her work 'en leven zijn gekleurd' and life are colored 'door haar ervaringen en identiteit als zwarte vrouw' by her experiences and identity as a Black woman. 'Is het dan' is it then 'op z'n zachtst gezegd' to say the least [literally 'softest'] 'niet een gemiste kans' not a missed ['gemiste'] opportunity 'om Marieke Lucas Rijneveld in te huren voor deze job?' for Marieke Lucas Rijneveld to be hired for this job? 'Hen is wit, non-binair,' they are white, non-binary, 'heeft geen ervaring op dit gebied' have no experience in this area, 'maar is volgens Meulenhoff toch de "gedroomde vertaler"' but is according to Meulenhoff the 'dream translator'?

So the first and foremost reason, according to the op-ed at least, does seem to be race. (Granted, I don't know Dutch, so I'm just checking Google Translate against Wiktionary. Obviously many of the words are similar to English.]

The op-ed seems to contain no direct complaint that Rijneveld has no experience as a translator, and never claims they don't know English.

Google Translate:

'Such a vote of confidence is not often awarded to people of color. On the contrary. Whether in fashion, art, business, politics or literature, the merits and qualities of black people are only sporadically valued - if seen at all. Something that applies squared to black women, who are systematically marginalized.

Own country talent

Nothing to the detriment of Rijneveld's qualities, but why not opt ​​for a literator who - just like Gorman - is a spoken word artist , young, woman and: unapologetically Black ? We run away with Amanda Gorman - and rightly so - but are blind to the spoken word talent in our own country. Not to be found, you say? I would like to share some names from my personal network.'

https://www.volkskra...lucas-rijneveld

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 03 March 2021 - 09:20 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'Dr. Seuss Enterprises, which oversees the 20th-century children's author's estate, announced that it had decided to discontinue publication and licensing of six books by Theodor Seuss Geisel [aka Dr. Seuss, who actually pronounced it Zoyce], saying, "These books portray people in ways that are hurtful and wrong." Though four of the six books are basically unknown and make up a fraction of the author's oeuvre, Fox News and other conservative voices, as if on autopilot, are treating the decision as another example of "cancel culture."'

[In most cases I think it's just one drawing (for example, Chinese person with eyes drawn as slits and wearing stereotypical traditional hat) or one phrase, so I was wondering why they didn't just change the problematic drawings (not hard with modern technology, plus I'm sure they can afford to find someone to mimic Geisel's style (maybe cut out a couplet if the rhyme's an issue). Turns out that's what he himself did:]

'For example, at the end of And to Think That I Saw It on Mulberry Street [1937], the version that was published in the 1930s had a page that said, "I've seen a Chinaman who eats with sticks." The man was colored yellow and had a pigtail, wearing one of those triangular hats. He cleaned that image up a bit in the 1978 edition, cut off the pigtail and removed the color, changed the language to "I've seen a Chinese man who eats with sticks."

[...]

I think what is surprising to people is that this was a guy who throughout his work tried to do anti-racist stuff. Think of Horton Hears a Who—one reviewer who read the book when it was published [in 1954] described it as an argument for the protection of minorities and their rights. The Sneetches and Other Stories [1953] was inspired by opposition to anti-Semitism. Some people look at that and think, "We just must be wrong about Seuss." That's because they see racism as an either/or—like, you're on Team Racism or you're not. But you can do anti-racist work and also reproduce racist ideas in your work. And Seuss wasn't aware that his visual imagination was so steeped in the cultures of American racism. He was doing in some of his books what he was trying to oppose in others.'

https://slate.com/cu...-interview.html

So I suspected Dr. Seuss Enterprises anticipated that discontinuing the books instead of revising them would cause considerably more controversy and drive up book sales. Lo and behold:


'Classic Dr. Seuss books are dominating Amazon's best sellers list despite many people saying the well-known author has been "canceled."

The author's rise up the charts comes after Dr. Seuss Enterprises announced this week that it had last year ceased production of six books, citing racist and insensitive imagery.

It fueled talk of "cancel culture," but that's not shown on Amazon.

Thirty-four of the top 60 books of all genres on Amazon's best sellers list are either written and illustrated by Seuss, or a part of his publishing group. This includes the top six books on the chart, led by "The Cat in the Hat."

You'll also find "One Fish Two Fish Red Fish Blue Fish," "Oh, the Places You'll Go!" and "Green Eggs and Ham" high on the best sellers list. The only book not written by Seuss in the top 10, as of Thursday morning, is "Life After Death: A Novel," written by Sister Souljah.

[...] Ted Cruz[...] said President Joe Biden spurred the sudden rise up the best sellers list for Seuss.

"Who knew Joe Biden was such a great book seller," Cruz tweeted [...]

Biden did not mention Dr. Seuss in his National Reading Month proclamation on Monday, unlike former Presidents Donald Trump and Barack Obama[...]

But the National Education Association began distancing itself from Seuss before Biden took office[...] In 2017, the association announced it would begin promoting more diverse children's books.'

https://www.thenewst...e249684773.html

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 04 March 2021 - 06:56 PM

[QuickTidal]

Azath Vitr (D, on 04 March 2021 - 06:54 PM, said:

Turns out that's what he himself did:]

'For example, at the end of And to Think That I Saw It on Mulberry Street [1937], the version that was published in the 1930s had a page that said, "I've seen a Chinaman who eats with sticks." The man was colored yellow and had a pigtail, wearing one of those triangular hats. He cleaned that image up a bit in the 1978 edition, cut off the pigtail and removed the color, changed the language to "I've seen a Chinese man who eats with sticks."

Fun fact, I have a middling-to-old omnibus of Seuss stories on my kids bookshelf (no idea where it come from originally) which includes this story (and it's my son's favourite story by Seuss, he likes the cadence of it)...and this particular line in it is the older more racist/colonial line and image. I usually skip over that bit because I know how bad it is, and my toddler son is not old enough yet for the nuanced conversation of "This is problematic, and here's why"...and he doesn't miss the line he doesn't know is there. But yeah, it stands out hard in what is otherwise a great Seuss story. I should check the date on its publication as it doesn't SEEM like the omnibus is as old as the pre-1970's...in which case the change was not applied to all versions of the story and just the main book...oe maybe my copy is older than I thought.

I'm also glad to know that in later years Seuss (who was shitty for other reasons...namely how he treated his wife) went back and revised with more modern sensibilities. It's not a perfect solution, but it's something worth noting. I was unaware of that.

[Malankazooie]

Have you guys noticed this warning/disclaimer that is displayed at the beginning of older movies?

THIS FILM HAS OUTDATED ATTITUDES, LANGUAGE AND CULTURAL DEPICTIONS, WHICH MAY CAUSE OFFENSE TODAY.

Never seen the movie "Rush Hour" and kept on surfing past it and didn't watch the movie, but that's the first time I've seen that message.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'Anything but innocent

It's no longer enough to say, "I'm not racist." We need to be anti-racist, and that's harder. To be anti-racist, we must look at our everyday routines, our communities, and our own families—eliminating even some of the things that have brought us joy as children so the next generation can be healthier and stronger. One of those things is nursery rhymes, many of which are deeply embedded with racism.

[...] by age four, children recognize basic racial stereotypes. Often, these stereotypes are so normalized, it's easy to misidentify them and thus dismiss them as historical or eliminated when, in fact, they continue to circulate in new forms in children's culture. [...] racist tropes often "hide in plain sight." In children's nursery rhymes, an obviously racist, sexist, or anti-Semitic term might have been replaced with a word considered less offensive, but the new term can be just as triggering to BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, and People of Color) as the original epithet.

[...] protect your child's developing mind from racist narratives like the eight listed below.

Ten Little Monkeys

You have likely sung some version of this nursery rhyme to your children, teaching them to count backward and also just to amuse them[...] [It's] derived from a nursery rhyme called "Ten Little N**gers," which counted down by illuminating ten different horrible ways for Black boys to die. [...]

Today, parents use the same rhythmic language of this rhyme in "Ten Little Monkeys." But subbing in the word monkeys not only fails to redress the wrongs of the original language, but it's also traumatizing in a different, though related, way. "Children's literature and culture helped promote the lie of Black animality by presenting African Americans as apes or monkeys, either via racist caricature or via monkey characters who behaved like they imagined African Americans behaved," [...] "In order to justify slavery, slavers propagated the libel that people of African descent were inherently more animal, less civilized, and thus less human." In the end, using the word monkeys doesn't eliminate racism from the nursery rhyme—it simply reestablishes it.

Eeny Meeny Miny Mo

[...] children all around the world have some variation of this childhood chant, which is used in America to decide who will be "it" in games like tag. But until recently, the American version of "Eeny Meeny Miny Mo" used the N-word. As late as the 1980s in some schoolyards, children rhymed about catching "a n**ger by the toe." The more benign "tiger" became popularized over time, but Nel says that change doesn't get rid of this rhyme's inherent hate speech. "Though I, too, heard the 'tiger' version when I was a kid, [...] the rhyme has such a strong association with the N-word that it should be retired—permanently. Even using the 'tiger' version may activate a traumatic memory for people of color."'

[...]

Oh, Susannah

While not a nursery rhyme, per se, this quintessentially American children's song also has troubling roots. It was written in the 19th century by Stephen Foster, the composer of "Camptown Races" and "Old Folks at Home" (better known as "Swanee River"), and [...] it was originally sung in "N**ro dialect." He adds that its second verse uses the N-word and treats the deaths of African Americans as a comical, silly event[...]

Artifacts of a deeply segregated, violent, and racist America no longer belong in our kids' libraries. They belong in history books and museums, so that future generations will never forget that even children's culture assisted White supremacy and helped maintain racism across generations and over hundreds of years. "The Star-Spangled Banner" also has racist lyrics, and it's one of the reasons some Black Americans don't celebrate the Fourth of July.'

[The modern version omits the second verse:

'I jumped aboard the telegraph and traveled down the river,
Electric fluid magnified, and killed five hundred [n-word].
The bullgine bust, the horse ran off, I really thought I'd die;
I shut my eyes to hold my breath—Susanna, don't you cry.']

'Short'nin' Bread

The economic exploitation and cultural theft of Black people has been so normalized over the past four centuries that many people don't realize how thoroughly racism is incorporated in everyday American life—in our everyday expressions and even in our food. [...] "Mamma's Little Baby Loves Short'nin' Bread," was originally titled "Mammy's Little Baby Loves Short'nin' Bread." But even with this change, Mammy and Mamma are so close in spelling and sound, it is nearly impossible to separate the two in this song that mocks African American language and confines Black women to White women's kitchens. [...] all of us remember that the song's main character is a Black "Mammy," and cultural memory runs deep.

[...]

Jimmy Crack Corn

Black children have been terrorized over the years by this song's explicit references to slavery, as it happily sings about the "ole massa gone away." While you'll still hear it today, this song was popularized in the 19th century and often used in blackface minstrel shows. [...] back in the day, it was also "performed in 'N**ro dialect' by White men in blackface."'

https://www.rd.com/l...c5-2qRJUz_Zkh18


'"Jimmy Crack Corn," also known as "Blue Tail Fly," might be a cheery, upbeat song, but its true underlying meaning is dark. [...] "Jimmy Crack Corn" gained resurgence in the 1940s as a folk song during the beginning of the American folk music revival. Since then, it has become a very popular children's song with many different covers and versions of it.

We all know the lyrics. "Jimmy crack corn an' I don't care / Jimmy crack corn an' I don't care / Jimmy crack corn an' I don't care / The Master's gone away." It's a very sing-song-y tune and makes you definitely want to sing along. [...]

[...] the song's backstory is about a black slave's lament over his white master's death from a horse-riding accident. Pretty dark, right? [...] the song can be interpreted as a celebration of the master's death. Additionally, the slaves even contributing to his death through deliberate negligence.

The story follows that the master went out on a horseback ride when the slave was supposed to follow along and brush away the blue tail flies from the horse. Well, the flies were definitely pesky that day. They bite the horse which causes it to panic. The horse then throws the master off into a ditch. The master breaks his neck. An investigation follows and the verdict puts the blame on the blue tail fly. As for the term "Jimmy crack corn and I don't care," this was often slang for sitting around and gossiping without a care.'

https://doyouremembe...ng-meaning-dark

Do Black children perceive the modern versions as racist? Will children think 'Monkeys' means 'Black people' if they haven't already been taught to think that? This is the text:

'Ten little monkeys jumping on the bed
One fell off and bumped his head
Mama called the doctor,
And the doctor said
No more monkeys jumping on the bed

Nine little monkeys jumping on the bed etc.'

IDK....

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 06 March 2021 - 05:02 PM

[Abyss]

Malankazooie, on 06 March 2021 - 04:52 PM, said:

Have you guys noticed this warning/disclaimer that is displayed at the beginning of older movies?

THIS FILM HAS OUTDATED ATTITUDES, LANGUAGE AND CULTURAL DEPICTIONS, WHICH MAY CAUSE OFFENSE TODAY.

Never seen the movie "Rush Hour" and kept on surfing past it and didn't watch the movie, but that's the first time I've seen that message.

Disney put something similar at the start of a few Muppet Show eps when they added the classic show recently.

...they didn't add the one episode with the guest who was later convicted of rape however.

[Primateus]

Malankazooie, on 06 March 2021 - 04:52 PM, said:

Have you guys noticed this warning/disclaimer that is displayed at the beginning of older movies?

THIS FILM HAS OUTDATED ATTITUDES, LANGUAGE AND CULTURAL DEPICTIONS, WHICH MAY CAUSE OFFENSE TODAY.

Never seen the movie "Rush Hour" and kept on surfing past it and didn't watch the movie, but that's the first time I've seen that message.

A bit like with Rambo 3 and its glorification of the Taliban.

[Malankazooie]

Am curious to know what about the movie Rush Hour requires that warning. I did an IMDB of the movie and it stars Jackie Chan and Chris Tucker.. I vaguely remember the trailer for it. Is there some insensitive cultural caricatures or stereotypes in the movie?

Or is this message/warning a de facto strategy and is slapped on any move that was made prior to the year <insert beginning of woke era here>?

[Cause]

The movie is a black man making fun of Asian culture and vice versa. Harmless comedy movie I’d say but these days...

[Cause]

https://www.nbcnews....amp/ncna1259001

This article about the misogyny in making Alexa (Amazon Alexa) apologize on command has been suggested to me twice. Am I crazy for finding this entire premise crazy?

[QuickTidal]

Cause, on 08 March 2021 - 02:50 PM, said:

https://www.nbcnews....amp/ncna1259001

This article about the misogyny in making Alexa (Amazon Alexa) apologize on command has been suggested to me twice. Am I crazy for finding this entire premise crazy?

It's utter trash and nonsense. The voice is female because someone decided long ago that personal assistants were better responded to by the test and focus groups on the tech if they were female (same with Siri, Cortana, ect). That's it. Beyond that Alexa apologizes if she can't do something for you...like that's just your robot assistant being FUCKING polite to the user, even when it's their fault. Anyone reading misogyny into that is utterly delusional. Like beyond delusional.

What a trash article.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 08 March 2021 - 03:01 PM

[D'rek]

Alexa saying sorry so much is cultural appropriation against Canadians!!!

[LinearPhilosopher]

D, on 08 March 2021 - 03:01 PM, said:

Alexa saying sorry so much is cultural appropriation against Canadians!!!

and copyright infringement to boot!

[Cause]

Here seems the best place for this:

So my first women’s day in America (it’s in august in South Africa). My company is going all out, they posted video interviews with the higher up female employees, the boss sent a company wide email to all the woman thanking them for being an inspiration. I’d be curious for a female perspective but I feel like it’s having the opposite effect than intended. To me it feels almost patronizing.

Good job and being a women and having a job, here’s my 3 sentence email. Back to work.

Edit- wanted to add women’s day to me is more about reflecting on what women needed to do to fight for what they have today and for what still needs to be done, not necessarily a celebration of all particular women. If that makes sense.

This post has been edited by Cause: 08 March 2021 - 07:49 PM

[LinearPhilosopher]

Cause, on 08 March 2021 - 07:46 PM, said:

Here seems the best place for this:

So my first women’s day in America (it’s in august in South Africa). My company is going all out, they posted video interviews with the higher up female employees, the boss sent a company wide email to all the woman thanking them for being an inspiration. I’d be curious for a female perspective but I feel like it’s having the opposite effect than intended. To me it feels almost patronizing.

Good job and being a women and having a job, here’s my 3 sentence email. Back to work.

Edit- wanted to add women’s day to me is more about reflecting on what women needed to do to fight for what they have today and for what still needs to be done, not necessarily a celebration of all particular women. If that makes sense.

I kinda feel similar, but thats more the fact that im so done with corporate BS.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'The Catalan translator for the poem that American writer Amanda Gorman read at US president Joe Biden's inauguration has said he has been removed from the job because he had the wrong "profile".

It was the second such case in Europe after Dutch writer Marieke Lucas Rijneveld resigned from the job of translating Gorman's work following criticism that a black writer was not chosen.

"They told me that I am not suitable to translate it," [...] "They did not question my abilities, but they were looking for a different profile, which had to be a woman, young, activist and preferably black."

[...] Obiols, who has translated works by William Shakespeare and Oscar Wilde, received a request from Barcelona publisher Univers three weeks ago to produce a Catalan version of Gorman's poem with a foreword by US television personality Oprah Winfrey. After he had finished, his publisher received a message to the effect that he "was not the right person", said Obiols.

[...]

"But if I cannot translate a poet because she is a woman, young, black, an American of the 21st century, neither can I translate Homer because I am not a Greek of the eighth century BC. Or could not have translated Shakespeare because I am not a 16th-century Englishman."

Univers could not be reached by AFP for comment. Obiols said the publisher had promised to pay him for the work nonetheless.'

https://www.theguard...an-poem-removed

... why not include both translations? Or perhaps that would require giving Obiols royalties?...

Of course there's a social justice / underrepresentation argument for giving opportunities to Black translators. But not so much for female translators, I'd think... maybe for young translators.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 11 March 2021 - 07:10 PM

[LinearPhilosopher]

Azath Vitr (D, on 11 March 2021 - 07:06 PM, said:

'The Catalan translator for the poem that American writer Amanda Gorman read at US president Joe Biden's inauguration has said he has been removed from the job because he had the wrong "profile".

It was the second such case in Europe after Dutch writer Marieke Lucas Rijneveld resigned from the job of translating Gorman's work following criticism that a black writer was not chosen.

"They told me that I am not suitable to translate it," [...] "They did not question my abilities, but they were looking for a different profile, which had to be a woman, young, activist and preferably black."

[...] Obiols, who has translated works by William Shakespeare and Oscar Wilde, received a request from Barcelona publisher Univers three weeks ago to produce a Catalan version of Gorman's poem with a foreword by US television personality Oprah Winfrey. After he had finished, his publisher received a message to the effect that he "was not the right person", said Obiols.

[...]

"But if I cannot translate a poet because she is a woman, young, black, an American of the 21st century, neither can I translate Homer because I am not a Greek of the eighth century BC. Or could not have translated Shakespeare because I am not a 16th-century Englishman."

Univers could not be reached by AFP for comment. Obiols said the publisher had promised to pay him for the work nonetheless.'

https://www.theguard...an-poem-removed

... why not include both translations? Or perhaps that would require giving Obiols royalties?...

Of course there's a social justice / underrepresentation argument for giving opportunities to Black translators. But not so much for female translators, I'd think... maybe for young translators.

It is bloody ridiculous. Translation requires a degree of fluency and understanding of a language that the vast majority of people can't even pull off in one language. Having been forced to do translation work myself, it is no easy feat and you have to think... for this specific instance you need someone who is not just fluent, but a master of both Catalan (unsure if its a dialect or a language) and English? On top of that must also be a black woman? Its ridiculous. Translating written works also isn't the same as translating spoken works as well.... Like the person working as a translator at the UN has a different skillset then the one translating Shakespear.

Then if you factor it that translation is more art than science.... like you have a small pool of candidates to begin with.

Anyways i figured i'd post this here... came across this site as a sponsor of one of my history youtubes.

https://ground.news/...MPYHdS5qqDDr9x4

Its a website that compares coverage of the same story by news site. Very very cool.

This post has been edited by LinearPhilosopher: 11 March 2021 - 08:20 PM