[Aptorian]

I won't be near a proper computer before Thursday or Friday, so I won't attempt a rebutal with sources right now. I'll just add a few comments.


1. I wasn't attempting to persuade anyone, I was just repeating a lot of the debate we already had in the Feminist frequency thread. Where I have posted sources.

2. Never said Quinn wasn't doxxed. I said she's made fake doxxing reports.

3. I am not against feminists, I am against abusing identity politics for the sake of personal profit and petty outrage.

I don't consider Denmark a feminist country. I consider us Post-feminist. Do we have some wage inequalities? Jobdistribution imbalances? Certain cultural artifacts from a more male-dominated age? Sure.

But a. I am not sure many of these arent natural and unavoidable for socio-economic/biological reasons, nor am I sure they're the problem we make of them. Women have a strong presence in Danish politics and on the job market.

B. Denmark is incredibly blessed in terms of rights and choices. Women get long maternity leaves, their various aches and ills that men aren't afflicted by, are covered by employment rights, there are no direct cultural norms or taboos that oppress or subjugate women in any way - well, there's the promiscuity thing but again I think that's partially biological and also Danish culture is a lot more slutty than other places.

I honestly believe that the identity politic debate has little to do in Denmark. I think it's another symptom of America's dominant cultural outrage export. We absorb American culture and norms through our media and mistakingly think that their problems are our problems, when in reality everything is mostly fine and everything is going to be okay.

Only, to get this debate back into politics, it won't be okay eventually because there's a knock back pendulum effect happening in all of Europe, just like the USA. The more the left push for political correctness, the harder the right hits back. The more shrill the identity debate becomes the more shitty the right becomes.

I am not saying that there isn't real gender based issues out there but a hell of a lot of the stuff I see in the media is fluffy bullshit complaints made by people who get off on outrage.

But hey, that's just my cynically privileged perspective.

[Obdigore]

Alternative Goose, on 20 November 2018 - 01:39 PM, said:

I won't be near a proper computer before Thursday or Friday, so I won't attempt a rebutal with sources right now. I'll just add a few comments.


1. I wasn't attempting to persuade anyone, I was just repeating a lot of the debate we already had in the Feminist frequency thread. Where I have posted sources.

2. Never said Quinn wasn't doxxed. I said she's made fake doxxing reports.

3. I am not against feminists, I am against abusing identity politics for the sake of personal profit and petty outrage.

I don't consider Denmark a feminist country. I consider us Post-feminist. Do we have some wage inequalities? Jobdistribution imbalances? Certain cultural artifacts from a more male-dominated age? Sure.

But a. I am not sure many of these arent natural and unavoidable for socio-economic/biological reasons, nor am I sure they're the problem we make of them. Women have a strong presence in Danish politics and on the job market.

B. Denmark is incredibly blessed in terms of rights and choices. Women get long maternity leaves, their various aches and ills that men aren't afflicted by, are covered by employment rights, there are no direct cultural norms or taboos that oppress or subjugate women in any way - well, there's the promiscuity thing but again I think that's partially biological and also Danish culture is a lot more slutty than other places.

I honestly believe that the identity politic debate has little to do in Denmark. I think it's another symptom of America's dominant cultural outrage export. We absorb American culture and norms through our media and mistakingly think that their problems are our problems, when in reality everything is mostly fine and everything is going to be okay.

Only, to get this debate back into politics, it won't be okay eventually because there's a knock back pendulum effect happening in all of Europe, just like the USA. The more the left push for political correctness, the harder the right hits back. The more shrill the identity debate becomes the more shitty the right becomes.

I am not saying that there isn't real gender based issues out there but a hell of a lot of the stuff I see in the media is fluffy bullshit complaints made by people who get off on outrage.

But hey, that's just my cynically privileged perspective.

So wait... You don't like 'feminists' because they want things like equality, you think everything is equal in Denmark, because YOU see a few women in politics, and decide that it must be the Americans fault, and that if you just give the fascists what they want, they'll be satisfied? Because that's what this entire thing just read as to me. Does someone really need to go through this post and deride each of each individual statement, or can you see the flaws in what you posted?

I just have to point out that you straight up admitted there are wage imbalances and job imbalances, but figure its ok because women make babies, which is an inherently anti-equality viewpoint. Denmark has apparently (according to the UN) the worst rates of violence against women in Europe. Maybe women are mad about that, and the culture of victim blaming (kind of like what you did up thread)?

PS - When you whine about 'political correctness', all you are saying is I want to be racist/sexist and people are telling me I can't. Just FYI.

Edit - Clarifying a statement to avoid nitpick arguments.

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 20 November 2018 - 08:08 PM

[worry]

Alternative Goose, on 20 November 2018 - 01:39 PM, said:

Only, to get this debate back into politics, it won't be okay eventually because there's a knock back pendulum effect happening in all of Europe, just like the USA. The more the left push for political correctness, the harder the right hits back. The more shrill the identity debate becomes the more shitty the right becomes.

I am not saying that there isn't real gender based issues out there but a hell of a lot of the stuff I see in the media is fluffy bullshit complaints made by people who get off on outrage.

But hey, that's just my cynically privileged perspective.

This is gonna be tl;dr, sorry:


Here's the thing -- what you're calling "political correctness" there is just people who have been disenfranchised (and worse) for centuries finally becoming (somewhat) enfranchised, having a voice in the public discourse, the shaping of civilization and perhaps their own lives. And it's just the beginning stages of that. Occasionally, it's people privileged by the status quo advocating for other people (and of course getting called white knights, race/sex traitors, etc.). That's what the reactionary right is reacting to -- what it always has: 'others' becoming equals. That's it. And it's this very partial mitigation of the ability of the privileged to flex race/sex/wealth/etc. power unchecked that has caused this insane uproar, this titanic tantrum. So when devil's advocates of all political stripes accept that PC is a problem, or do the "there are extremes on both sides" thing -- as if a few college freshmen tumblr rants pose an equal and opposite threat as the entire oppressive weight of history -- it only serves the oppressor.


Embedded in that belief, and your post, is the pretense that the PC crowd, the left, whoever, have an agenda they inflict on others, upsetting an apparently neutral applecart, which awakens an otherwise dormant reactionary right. Otherwise how is it the right that "hits back"? But that's total hogwash. The corrosive, regressive right wing is constantly active, constantly making inroads, constantly shaping public policy. It requires the progressive left reawakening -- after hard won progress becomes seemingly natural comforts -- to stop that regress. In other words, inertia favors the right. There is no ratchet effect, there is no natural arc of the moral universe bending towards justice, without actual people doing the actual hard work to make it happen, against incredible odds and while probably upsetting comfortable people.


So I'd just ask you to think about whether cynical privileged perspective is helping or hurting that effort, because I know in principle you're on the side of progress. So to take a recent example: Apu from The Simpsons. A white guy mocking an Indian accent for 3 decades, and finally there are some Indian media figures prominent enough to have their voices heard, and for the most part their reaction is that it's a negative representation, steeped in brownface and appropriation, and has genuinely had a negative effect on their lives. How did the institution, the very powerful people behind the institution that is The Simpsons, like Al Jean, react? That it is just another case of PC run amok. Making a mountain out of molehill. Aren't there bigger fish to fry? Basically the usual "you guys are overreacting" stuff that the entire "Political Corectness"-as-epithet crowd always falls on. In order to keep doing what they're doing, no matter how insensitive, how harmful, how dehumanizing it is to other people. It's flexing the power of dominance on the social hierarchy. We've heard your (brown people's) complaints, and we've deemed them illegitimate, and in fact, you bringing it up is hurtful to us. I mean in general we're on your side, or at least we were, but we're starting to see why people are so mad about this political correctness stuff. So you're kind of hurting your own cause. How convenient! And all of that just so a white guy can go on mocking Indian accents on a 30 year old, 20-years-past-its-prime cartoon sitcom. But those stock arguments are used across the board -- it doesn't matter what the issue is, because it's really about not giving up the power. The ability to do what you want, when you want, to anybody, and dismissing their complaints.

[Aptorian]

@ Obdigore - Dude, you need to chill and remember you're not on Facebook. This isn't a fight with your drunk uncle, no need to be this aggressive. I've also noticed every time I don't agree with the echo chamber you feel a need to call me a racist or a sexist. Check yourself.

Just because I don't agree with current feminist thinking doesn't make me a misogynist. Contrarian? Ignorant or arrogant? Conservative? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But it's okay to question cause and effect.

In this case you don't live in Denmark. You don't know Danish culture. You also don't know me very well apparently. I've got a degree in library science covering culture and communication and I work in the shitty part of the capital. I don't say these things about gender, race, sex, class in general because I'm a bigot or an idiot.

I question the current trend in identity politics because I'm educated enough to know you can take numbers and demographics and put two and two together and get five depending upon what your values and ideals are.

Wage gaps are caused by more than genetalia. Violence against women is caused by more than societal conditioning. Discrimination isn't just based on hatred of skin color.

There are underlaying factors involved and right now the deeper techtonic plates of nation states, human rights and macro economics are causing more strife than what ever spat I typically encounter on the web. Which is what this current discussion stems from.

I'm not saying this in an attempt to pull a what aboutism but rather because I think Identity politics is a puzzle piece in a larger geo-political problem. Our values are being eroded by hatred and fear and while we're debating mansplaining, fat fobia and swedish sex contracts, Steve Bannon and the Lizard people are using identity nitpicking to sell a story about liberal elites telling Joe blue color how to live.

Fuck man, when I hear about Copenhagen University banning Mexican Halloween costumes, I want to go out and vote for the big right wing nationalist party, because at least they're not so politically correct. I don't want to live in a world wrapped in cotton. And... I refuse to not speak up when I think a feminist or who ever else is full of shit.

(God damn I hate you for making me type all this out on a phone)

This post has been edited by Alternative Goose: 20 November 2018 - 09:16 PM

[worry]

Alternative Goose, on 20 November 2018 - 09:15 PM, said:

Fuck man, when I hear about Copenhagen University banning Mexican Halloween costumes, I want to go out and vote for the big right wing nationalist party, because at least they're not so politically correct. I don't want to live in a world wrapped in cotton. And... I refuse to not speak up when I think a feminist or who ever else is full of shit.

I know that was in response to Obdi and not me, but this part in particular fits into what I was saying I think. What is this reaction to 'political correctness' if not a reaction to more people -- previously excluded people -- having a voice in the decision-making? Like, your thought process is stopping too early if it stops before asking "How did we get to "Mexican" costumes being okay in the first place?"

[Aptorian]

worry, on 20 November 2018 - 08:48 PM, said:

Alternative Goose, on 20 November 2018 - 01:39 PM, said:

Only, to get this debate back into politics, it won't be okay eventually because there's a knock back pendulum effect happening in all of Europe, just like the USA. The more the left push for political correctness, the harder the right hits back. The more shrill the identity debate becomes the more shitty the right becomes.

I am not saying that there isn't real gender based issues out there but a hell of a lot of the stuff I see in the media is fluffy bullshit complaints made by people who get off on outrage.

But hey, that's just my cynically privileged perspective.

This is gonna be tl;dr, sorry:


Here's the thing -- what you're calling "political correctness" there is just people who have been disenfranchised (and worse) for centuries finally becoming (somewhat) enfranchised, having a voice in the public discourse, the shaping of civilization and perhaps their own lives. And it's just the beginning stages of that. Occasionally, it's people privileged by the status quo advocating for other people (and of course getting called white knights, race/sex traitors, etc.). That's what the reactionary right is reacting to -- what it always has: 'others' becoming equals. That's it. And it's this very partial mitigation of the ability of the privileged to flex race/sex/wealth/etc. power unchecked that has caused this insane uproar, this titanic tantrum. So when devil's advocates of all political stripes accept that PC is a problem, or do the "there are extremes on both sides" thing -- as if a few college freshmen tumblr rants pose an equal and opposite threat as the entire oppressive weight of history -- it only serves the oppressor.


Embedded in that belief, and your post, is the pretense that the PC crowd, the left, whoever, have an agenda they inflict on others, upsetting an apparently neutral applecart, which awakens an otherwise dormant reactionary right. Otherwise how is it the right that "hits back"? But that's total hogwash. The corrosive, regressive right wing is constantly active, constantly making inroads, constantly shaping public policy. It requires the progressive left reawakening -- after hard won progress becomes seemingly natural comforts -- to stop that regress. In other words, inertia favors the right. There is no ratchet effect, there is no natural arc of the moral universe bending towards justice, without actual people doing the actual hard work to make it happen, against incredible odds and while probably upsetting comfortable people.


So I'd just ask you to think about whether cynical privileged perspective is helping or hurting that effort, because I know in principle you're on the side of progress. So to take a recent example: Apu from The Simpsons. A white guy mocking an Indian accent for 3 decades, and finally there are some Indian media figures prominent enough to have their voices heard, and for the most part their reaction is that it's a negative representation, steeped in brownface and appropriation, and has genuinely had a negative effect on their lives. How did the institution, the very powerful people behind the institution that is The Simpsons, like Al Jean, react? That it is just another case of PC run amok. Making a mountain out of molehill. Aren't there bigger fish to fry? Basically the usual "you guys are overreacting" stuff that the entire "Political Corectness"-as-epithet crowd always falls on. In order to keep doing what they're doing, no matter how insensitive, how harmful, how dehumanizing it is to other people. It's flexing the power of dominance on the social hierarchy. We've heard your (brown people's) complaints, and we've deemed them illegitimate, and in fact, you bringing it up is hurtful to us. I mean in general we're on your side, or at least we were, but we're starting to see why people are so mad about this political correctness stuff. So you're kind of hurting your own cause. How convenient! And all of that just so a white guy can go on mocking Indian accents on a 30 year old, 20-years-past-its-prime cartoon sitcom. But those stock arguments are used across the board -- it doesn't matter what the issue is, because it's really about not giving up the power. The ability to do what you want, when you want, to anybody, and dismissing their complaints.

To you first two paragraphs, I agree in principle. A lot of my opinions are basically based on my white male privilege.

As I'm sitting in my own nice hut on the beach, I'm yelling out the window at the new brown, female, lesbian neighbor who just moved in next door and is making an awful racket as she gets her house in order.

But what grinds my gears is that a lot of the time, I feel like the outrage of the day is petty shit being blown out of proportion by a teenager/20 something whom I, in my 30 something old man wisdom, question even know what the hell they're talking about.

And some of my frustration does stem from looking at the right wing dunking on the left. Like I'm seeing the nationalists gain traction, I'm looking at world tendencies and all I'm thinking is, nobody will care about Tumblr when we're all on a train cart to Tesla's Soylent green factory.

As for the Apu thing. I actually think we could have a whole separate thread on that. I considered making one.

I fervently disagree that Apu is voice actor black face or a racist stereotype. Apu is a real reflection of immigrants in Western culture. A hard working man working in a kiosk or driving a taxi, exaggerated of course for comedy in a comedy show that was very daring in it's societal satire originally.

That's as realistic today as it was 30 years ago (at least here in Denmark).

How is this racist? Exaggerated sure. Farce-like, yeah. But the Apu character is from what I recall an honest, generous, wise character. A loving husband and father and a good friend of Homer.

I feel like dropping Apu is another case of a small interest group ruining a perfectly fine cultural touchstone because it could offend some people.

As far as I recall plenty of people made great passionate defenses for keeping Apu. I'm sad he had to go. Though I haven't really watched the show the past 15 years.

This post has been edited by Alternative Goose: 20 November 2018 - 09:51 PM

[Aptorian]

worry, on 20 November 2018 - 09:47 PM, said:

Alternative Goose, on 20 November 2018 - 09:15 PM, said:

Fuck man, when I hear about Copenhagen University banning Mexican Halloween costumes, I want to go out and vote for the big right wing nationalist party, because at least they're not so politically correct. I don't want to live in a world wrapped in cotton. And... I refuse to not speak up when I think a feminist or who ever else is full of shit.

I know that was in response to Obdi and not me, but this part in particular fits into what I was saying I think. What is this reaction to 'political correctness' if not a reaction to more people -- previously excluded people -- having a voice in the decision-making? Like, your thought process is stopping too early if it stops before asking "How did we get to "Mexican" costumes being okay in the first place?"

Oh God, all these cans of worms are spilling all over the place!

This is Denmark. We probably have 5 Mexican immigrants in the whole country. Whose feelings or rights are we hurting? What culture are we appropriating? Should we stop eating tortillas as well?

It's so incredibly unimportant that it pisses me off anybody cares. And of course it ties back into those damn kids infecting the universities with their safe spaces and bizarro ideas of what a university should be.

This post has been edited by Alternative Goose: 20 November 2018 - 10:00 PM

[worry]

But how many Indian-Americans had a hand in, let alone control over, the creation or depiction of Apu? Who defined the exaggerations, and who the farce? From whose perspective is the satire being done, and who is it for? And if you know the answers to those questions, then how can you reasonably determine that the depiction was "realistic"?

[worry]

Alternative Goose, on 20 November 2018 - 10:00 PM, said:

It's so incredibly unimportant that it pisses me off anybody cares. And of course it ties back into those damn kids infecting the universities with their safe spaces and bizarro ideas of what a university should be.

It's not important to you. Part of our privilege is the presumption that, by default I guess, what is important to us is what is important period. Part of confronting that privilege is realizing that what other people find important very well may be.

[Aptorian]

I'll report back on that tomorrow. Must sleep.

[Studlock]

Alternative Goose, on 20 November 2018 - 09:15 PM, said:

Fuck man, when I hear about Copenhagen University banning Mexican Halloween costumes, I want to go out and vote for the big right wing nationalist party, because at least they're not so politically correct. I don't want to live in a world wrapped in cotton. And... I refuse to not speak up when I think a feminist or who ever else is full of shit.

lmao, you whinny baby

[LinearPhilosopher]

did someone cut the intro to the thread? There's context missing?

[worry]

Posts 1-10 were excised from the USA Politics thread.

[Nevyn]

On Apu, it is not that he is a negative character on the show in any way.

And maybe perceptions run different where you are from, but as funny as I found him at the time, not only is the accent a white mockery of the stereotypical Indian accent, but he was a wildly stereotyped character with those stereotypes played for laughs. It is not hard to see how that would bug some people.

[Morgoth]

Apt, I think the main issue here is that you don't actually know what feminism is. The way you describe Denmark shows that very clearly. Get rid of that ridiculous 4chan/youtube carricature of the philosophy and you'll find that you're probably a feminist yourself.

[Studlock]

The Punjabi people I grew up with hated Apu because every white lilly child would constantly quote Apu at them, and this is before 'super awesome Apu'. This was stereotypical corner store Apu. It's hard in a society for people who's entire identity, culture, and history is broken down into a singular stereotype on a cartoon. And that's what Apu was. He was the singular touchstone for Indian culture(s) in North America for a very long time. And, as they say, familiarity breeds contempt

[Obdigore]

Alternative Goose, on 20 November 2018 - 09:15 PM, said:

@ Obdigore - Dude, you need to chill and remember you're not on Facebook. This isn't a fight with your drunk uncle, no need to be this aggressive. I've also noticed every time I don't agree with the echo chamber you feel a need to call me a racist or a sexist. Check yourself.

Yea, you aren't my uncle, I agree.

Quote

Just because I don't agree with current feminist thinking doesn't make me a misogynist. Contrarian? Ignorant or arrogant? Conservative? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But it's okay to question cause and effect.

You claimed Denmark is a 'post feminist society', then claim that people in Denmark aren't equal, specifically women.

Quote

In this case you don't live in Denmark. You don't know Danish culture. You also don't know me very well apparently. I've got a degree in library science covering culture and communication and I work in the shitty part of the capital. I don't say these things about gender, race, sex, class in general because I'm a bigot or an idiot.

I know you based on what you write. If the shit you post is racist/sexist/whatever, then I call that out. The fact that you aren't defending what you posted, and rather try to say 'I'm actually a pretty good guy, because of ALL THESE OTHER THINGS' is pretty telling.

Quote

I question the current trend in identity politics because I'm educated enough to know you can take numbers and demographics and put two and two together and get five depending upon what your values and ideals are.

Wage gaps are caused by more than genetalia. Violence against women is caused by more than societal conditioning. Discrimination isn't just based on hatred of skin color.

And yet you claimed that Denmark is 'post feminist' because YOU don't care about those issues. Maybe other people do?

Quote

There are underlaying factors involved and right now the deeper techtonic plates of nation states, human rights and macro economics are causing more strife than what ever spat I typically encounter on the web. Which is what this current discussion stems from.

Of course they are. Protip - People can discuss and have opinions on more than one thing at once.

Quote

I'm not saying this in an attempt to pull a what aboutism but rather because I think Identity politics is a puzzle piece in a larger geo-political problem. Our values are being eroded by hatred and fear and while we're debating mansplaining, fat fobia and swedish sex contracts, Steve Bannon and the Lizard people are using identity nitpicking to sell a story about liberal elites telling Joe blue color how to live.

Fuck man, when I hear about Copenhagen University banning Mexican Halloween costumes, I want to go out and vote for the big right wing nationalist party, because at least they're not so politically correct. I don't want to live in a world wrapped in cotton. And... I refuse to not speak up when I think a feminist or who ever else is full of shit.

I know, because you also claimed that the authoritarian right wingers are 'reactionary'. You are responding to those 'identity politics' as the authoritarians want you to, by whining about how having racist costumes be fine, and that causes you to want to vote for white males to have all the power.

[Aptorian]

LinearPhilosopher, on 21 November 2018 - 03:26 AM, said:

did someone cut the intro to the thread? There's context missing?

worry, on 21 November 2018 - 04:00 AM, said:

Posts 1-10 were excised from the USA Politics thread.

Just as a heads up to people who stumble into this thread in 10 years you can can look up the feminist frequency thread, the PC gone wrong thread and Weinstein celebrity Deadpool thread for tangential discussions. We been having these debates intermittently since at least 2013 I think.

[Aptorian]

Morgoth, on 21 November 2018 - 07:24 AM, said:

Apt, I think the main issue here is that you don't actually know what feminism is. The way you describe Denmark shows that very clearly. Get rid of that ridiculous 4chan/youtube carricature of the philosophy and you'll find that you're probably a feminist yourself.

I know what feminism is Morgoth.

I think you mistake my disagreement with feminism for the propaganda that comes out of gamergate. Just because I tend to argue their position once in a while doesn't mean I agree with their meninist nonsense. (Though we have had arguments where I argue men's rights is a marginalized issue (Let's skip that angry discussion for now! )). We tend to mostly diacuss feminism when ever some new outrage happens in the video game sphere so I don't blame you for mistaking my approach.

I actually went and read through the English Wikipedia article on feminism earlier today, just to brush up on the waves.

Let me start out be saying I acknowledge that I have a prejudice here. I just don't trust that feminism is beneficial to me as a man and it colors any discussion we have on feminism. I'll explain below.

The fundemental issue I have is that I don't trust the definition that Wikipedia starts out with:

Quote

Feminism is a range of political movements, ideologies, and social movements that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve political, economic, personal, and social equality of sexes.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish educational and professional opportunities for women that are equal to those for men.

Now I know that feminist waves is actually a misnomer and there's counter movements within their sphere but I'm just going to generalize this and address this like all feminists are fourth wave and beyond.

I don't believe that modern fourth or fifth wave feminism is pro-men, nor am I actually sure that they're pro-women. I think they believe some people are more equal than others. I think they're a splintered group of confused and angry people who lack a grasp on their own identity so they spend their time telling other people how to be a human being. They spend as much time fighting one another as they do fighting for one another.

They attack men for sexualizing women. But they also attack women for wanting to be sexualized. They hate the way we're programmed biologically, so they make up socio-constructivistic windmills they can fight.

They act like social justice warriors picking fights on the internet but they get upset when the internet punches back. They consider social media an open forum but please don't speak back to them because that kind of micro-aggression triggers them.

They create their own language that they select from feminist theory and other sociological, ethnological academia, which they use to quantify the world they live in. They then get angry and confused when other people don't know what patriarchy, cisgender, rape culture, hegemonic masculinity, etc. means. It's suddenly problematic when other people dont check their privilege or the white, male, straight guilt they were born with as an original sin.

Which leads me to my original gripe. I don't think feminism at its end point stops with equality. I think it will, and in some way already does, erode men's rights. I think that for some feminists this is a real culture and gender war, with real hatred for men underneath that justice for women they crave.

Kill all male babies is not said in jest.

... I'll just let that hang for a second.

... And then I'll say that's pretty far fetched. That's just baseless fearmongering. Of course I don't think that the vast majority of people who identity as feminists think this way. But I do believe that there's erosion of trust and understanding that comes from putting labels on yourself and others.

I find the idea of a man calling himself feminist to be preposterous. It's like a sheep dressing up as a wolf.

So no, I don't consider myself feminist. Equalitarian? Egalitarian? More like but I think the meninist have already tainted these terms. Maybe I'm a gender centrist then?

If anything I'd be a second-wave feminist. We already won which leads me to the other problem you guys had. Calling Denmark Post-feminist.

We're definitely post-feminist. The goal posts are just shifting. The bigger issues are conquered, now we're sanding off edges.

Is there a wage gap, yes. Is there a disparity between the distribution of genders between job types? Yes. But I think most of us know that debate and the counter arguments.

The wage gap on a wider scale is affected by the types of jobs women and men take. That's not patriarchy that's picking the jobs we're suited for and economic realism. A male construction worker doesn't necessarily work harder than a female kindergarten teacher but the employer is able to pay differently. Maternity leave delays career paths but what do you want an employer to do? Promote you for taking time off? In Denmark this is alleviated by men beginning to have the same maternity rights as women, just as an example.

As for the whole misogyny issue, I don't know what to say. This post is already a mile long. Maybe Primateus wants to cut in and tell me I am full of shit but Denmark is not a rape culture and I can't think of a right men have that women don't.

This post has been edited by Alternative Goose: 21 November 2018 - 06:05 PM

[Itwæs Nom]

Hey, I lack education on this topic but I've been erratically following these discussions these past years and I'll just say that I don't think what Apt is saying is such a nonsense that you all seem to view it as

The banning of Mexican costumes for example, it doesn't change anything about how mexicans are viewed by people does it? To me it doesn't seem to do much more than hide a symptom of the real issue without addressing its' causes and important effects at all, possibly even making it more difficult to address in future

Political correctness is probably a great concept but I think the left overdoing it has been counterproductive to the movement or what you wanna call it

Another example, there was this porn actress whose name I don't remember who refused to do porn with an actor because he was gay. How wrong do you consider this? Personally I think she had a full right to do that and she doesn't have to hate gays for that at all, I think it's something that should be completely subject to personal choice. Anyway, obviously, mostly sjws and whatnot targeted her with a lot of criticism, hate and threats. Well she killed herself because of this.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head, have to go now anyway