[Werthead]

http://www.westeros....SSM/SSM03l.html

Reports 118 and 119 near the bottom.

Although it looks like it's a 'maybe' kind of thing rather than a 'definite' at the moment.

[QuickTidal]

Okay, as to the Erickson vs Martin debate, allow me to contribute my humble opinion.

To me, Erickson is a FAR more accomplished writer, and not at all SLOPPY as was previously stated. His world is more elaborate and his characters are more engaging. Before I had heard of and read Erickson's series I thought Martins ASOIaF hung the moon. I had my issues with it, most of those being that certain characters (mostly the South stuff, Cersei, Jaime, Dorne, ect....) I really don't care about, and Martin has Cersei in the EVIL drivers seat for mow, but there's a problem, she can't drive. It's like watching a bumbling fool, though I'd wager he plans this. Nonetheless, even after having read only GotM and DG I knew Erickson was the superior writer, after I finished MT I bloody knew! I am constantly enthralled b his world and all his characters, whereas I could care less what Brienne has gotten herself into as she seems to do alot of wandering (in search of Stark daughters), nor about how much Cersei hates Loras Tyrell. Let us not forget also that Martin is cribbing from a period of our own history, known as the War of the Roses, with the Yorks and the Lancasters (similar names huh?). That being said I still enjoy his writing and will still continue to read his books. I just finished reading "A Feast For Crows" a few days ago, and overall it was good, there is enough good stuff in it, but there is ALOT of BORE too. I won't go into specifics, but this one is missing something (I believe his name may be Lord Commander Jon Snow....lol). Oh and for the record, there is at least ONE gratuitous sex scene in AFFC, it takes place in Dorne. Trust me on this, it need NOT be there. Oh and for the record, there are 3….count ‘em THREE Arya chapters….that’s pitiful. Her and Jon Snow are the reasons I read.

So anyway, about 8 months ago whilst in a bookstore and discovering SE’s Malazan series……GRRM lost the fantasy throne in my eyes anyway. Now I know the two write about completely different things, but that does not mean that we can’t compare author abilities. Erikson holds me in thrall with every character. I care about what happens to everyone. I cannot say the same for ASOIaF. Like I said, Martin was amazing, and the best I had yet come across, just not anymore, and sometimes when a new General steps into the fold, it shows you the holes in the old General’s armor.

As for his posting a political view, I cannot say, I did not read it. We all hate Bush, or at least “human” style people do, but if he used the spot for info on the new book to spout any rhetoric, then that is just poor journalist style grab tactics. Also, I don’t know if he was ever nasty to fans, but 5 years is a LAUGHABLE and ridiculous timeframe to release a 700 pg book. To be completely honest, a lot of it is like filler really, I am afraid he is falling slowly into Jordan territory (but I loathe RJ, so that is another story), and eventually it will all be done, but to what end, and will I even care? At this point, the Malazan world contnues to surprise and impress, whilst Westeros (like Star Wars before it), I simply want closure now.

[Arkmam]

You miss what I consider most important, the lesbian sex scene.

[QuickTidal]

LOL, that's true, I forgot about that. It was ALSO gratuitous. Nonetheless, I stand remiss for fogetting. Thank you sir!

[Arkmam]

How can you call lesbian sex gratuitous?
Why not abolish air while your at it?

All right, I'll stop here...

[Dagger]

I just got past the 200p mark this weekend. It's going to take a while but I'll get there. Damn, I wish someone would kill somebody. Just a little action, that's all I ask. I miss Tyrion but his shadow is everywhere. He's really done a number on his siblings.

[Folken]

I got to the 450pg mark of the first book...oh...over a month ago:p
I just can't get into lol.

[QuickTidal]

Dagger said:

I just got past the 200p mark this weekend. It's going to take a while but I'll get there. Damn, I wish someone would kill somebody. Just a little action, that's all I ask. I miss Tyrion but his shadow is everywhere. He's really done a number on his siblings.

eah, very little in the way of that kind of action really, this is an explanation book, with some filler thrown in. That's not to say there isn't action, but Jon and the Nights Watch on the fist of the first men, and or Mance Rayder coming towards the wall....that ain't gonna happen here.

[Brys]

Izz said:

I can't take your opinion on liking Erikson over Martin away from you, but Martin is the more accomplished writer. For starters, Martin holds a master's degree in journalism (not to mention he's instructed it). He started his career in the early 70s with short stories, winning three Hugo and two Nebula awards. He has had several short story collections over the years. He's edited only-god-knows how many of those Wild Cards books. As a novelist he's dipped in nearly every genre, from sci-fi with Dying of the Light, to horror with Fevre Dream, and fiction with The Armageddon Rag. And in the 80s, of course, he was a writer in Hollywood, working on The Twilight Zone and Beauty and the Beast as well as creating his pilot. Hell, when he was a kid he sold stories for pocket change, dramatic tellings free with purchase.

ASoIaF is only the tip of the ****ing iceberg.

I can't discredit Erikson's career. I wouldn't want to. I believe Erikson started writing around 1990. So far he's been doing great, but is he more accomplished than Martin as a writer? No way in hell.

I have to agree - Martin is certainly the more "accomplished" and experienced writer, though I don't think that's quite the same thing as being a better writer. Erikson didn't seriously start writing until after 1990, as his first novel was published in 1993, and his first fantasy series began (in publishing terms, though he started writing GotM much earlier) in 1999. Martin began writing in the 1970s.

Something we may want to add to Erikson's achievements is that Gardens of the Moon was nominated for World Fantasy Award in 2000 - ok, not quite as impressive as actually winning the award, but for a first fantasy novel (and pretty much first novel, as he started writing this before anything else, even though it didn't come out until 1999).

In fantasy, when both have finished their series, then, maybe they'll be on an equal footing in accomplishments within fantasy, as little else of Martin's than ASOIAF is of note in fantasy, except Fevre Dream, but as the Malazan series is to be 10 books and the ASOIAF series 7, it evens out.

[werewolfv2]

Just to point out.

Martin was born in '48 and his only job has been writing (that's not a bad thing). Erikson is about 11 years younger (born in '59).

Martins 1st story was published in '71 when he was about 21. Eriksons 1st published work was in '91 when he was about 32.

Martins life revolved solely around writing which over time made him a very good author, Erikson went on and did archaeological...stuff, which seems to have translated into his being able to tell a very good story.

Martin is a much more prolific author, though prolific doesn't automatically mean more accomplished.

They are both accomplished authors and I have to think the only reason Martin is better known amongst the masses is because of the stigma of Erikson using allot of magic and having a world not based on England. Martins work is much more accessible to the large number of people that have a warped view of fantasy.

Martin: 1 very good series 1st published in '96 that put him on the fantasy map for the general reading public (outside of the TV industry) so far there are 4 books (book 4 just released).

Erikson: 1 very good series 1st published in '99 that has put him on the fantasy map, so far there are 5 books (book six due out in a few months) and 2 novellas

Martin has a TON of awards where Erikson doesn't. Of course how many people actually knew of Martin prior to A Game of Thrones? Methinks not that many.

That being said, Martin is a damn good author and I enjoy his aSoIF series even though its re-read enjoyment is much less than Eriksons.

[QuickTidal]

Don't get me wrong Izz, I enjoy Martin, and I have the whole ASOIaF so far (in hardcover ), but my issues are my own I guess, in that when I read Martin I am not constantly feeling a NEED to read foreward ALL the time (I might argue that ASOS nearly di that but not quite), and like I said about AFFC...well you know the filler thing. Wheras I am constantly needing to read foreward in Ericksons books. Like now, yesterday I have begunu the Malazan books fresh again, and the last 2 books I read, AFFC and Whyte's "The Eagle" were quite good, but the whole time I kept thinking..."Can't wait to get back to the Malazan world." Martins Accomplishments may outweigh SE, but in the end, who's fanbase is gonna be bigger, (I went to a Martin forum once, and I think one pilosophical discussion about Warrens might, make their heads explode!) and honestly, GRRM wasn't as big before ASOIaF came out, that is true.

[QuickTidal]

Izz said:

I'm not trying to put down Martin or Erikson at all myself. I think they are both nice guys and good writers. But the fact is, at this point in time, Martin is the more accomplished writer. That's not to say he's the better writer. I just don't see how it can be argued that Erikson is more accomplished.

If I was going to bash an author, it would probably be that dumb asshole mother ****er Terry Goodkind.

LOL, I read "Wizards First Rule" and I swear I wanted to yell at Goodkind. He's an awful writer! Do we need 3 chapters of Richard being tortured? Yeah, I didn't think so! LOL

And if by accomplished you mean his tenure and awards ect. Agreed. However, there are other types of accomplishment....

[Tsundoku]

Edge said:

Deeply disappointed by AFFC after such a long wait. GRRM said it was better to tell all the story for half the characters than half the story for all the characters. Have to disagree. Leaving out Tyrion, Bran, John and Dany was a bad idea. Too little of Arya, way too much of the Greyjoys and Cersei.

And what happened to Cersei? Gone from devious, manipulative queen bitch to helpless whinger who makes a lot of incredibly stupid tactical decisions.

Not worth five years of waiting.

Yeah, I sort of agree here. Admittedly quite good, but not worth 5 fuggin' years wait. A Dance of Dragons will have to truly kick butt.

I did like the POV thing, sort of like SE. It may not be right, but it's how the characters see it. Liked the fact that Tyrion doesn't appear yet still causes conniptions.

Cersei always was a vain bint who thought she was a lot more intelligent than she actually was. The difference was that previously she had her father around who was able to put the brakes on her stupidity. Polishing t*rds, as it were. Now she has a free "hand" (I crack me up, honestly ), so what we - and Westeros - are getting is 100% pure unvarnished Cersei. I like that sort of stuff, reasons for actions, and GRRM goes into it a bit with Cersei, especially the paranoia.

Cheers,

La Sombra, hopes something GOOD happens in Westeros one day, just to break a trend

[Hume]

Well I got the better part I spose in only having to wait a year. And I never let expectations of hype get the better of me. Considering as well I was halfway A four story jack Vanve book where as the 3rd story is the sequal to the second in the book but was also published 18 years later. when I had put that into perspective, Time didnt necessarilly mean that the book was going to Awesome or anything like that to me.

I actually enjoyed it a fair bit (may have already said this), main reasans were the introductions of new cultures; dorne, Iron islands, lesser extent the maester land and Braavos. Jaime was real cool by the end.

The only thing that dissapointed me was that a couple of threads like the princess of Dorne's thread in particular seemed kind of pointless, for those comments made by the Prince of Dorne at the end, it didnt need that much story dragged out.

[MoP]

I was disappointed with AFFC as well...it just didn't grab me whatsoever. There was a section in the middle of the book where I thought it might but then it dropped away again and basically ended with a whimper.

Very much a filler book and suffers from what alot of people say is wrong with the Wheel of Time series - too much useless exposition. For what happened in some of the story lines (Dorne, Iron Islands, Brienne) one or two chapters would have sufficed...instead we get 5-8 on each. I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out what Jaime's story line was all about - better to tell the full story for half the characters than half the story for all the characters - well, I think it's better to tell A story for a character, at least one that adds to the overall arc of the series. Sam - I was tossing up putting him in the first category but for some reason I liked his story line enough to think it warranted 5 chapters - thank god for the last one bringing the prologue back into otherwise we would have had another Jordanism - mention stuff in the prologue and then get back to them 4 books down the line. Arya and Sansa/Alayne were also ok, although I fail to see how Arya's story is a full one (granted, she is in the next book as well).

If memory serves me that just leaves Cersei - wow, how very disappointing was this series of chapters. I understand that she's a stupid bitch but did we need 10 chapters to show that and did she really need to be that stupid? And the old crutch of using prophecy to drive people's actions grated on me no end...it might have been original in Shakespeare's day but its a tired path now and I'm surprised that Martin would stoop to using such a device.

I'm hoping that this is just an aberration, a book Martin needed to get out of his system and the next will return to his former quality. If not, I can see this series quickly going the way of the Wheel of Time.

[Werthead]

If there's one thing I don't get, it's the Erikson vs. Martin debate. They are the two best epic fantasy authors out there at the momet. Some prefer one, others the other. Some even prefer Jordan :eek:

One big advantage Martin has in ASoIF is that the first novel starts at the beginning of the story and moves forward. GotM feels very much like it is starting halfway through the story. I compare ASoIF to easing you into the story gently, whilst MBF is like trying to leap onto a rollercoaster and hanging on for dear life. Both are fun in their own way.

I do ponder that "Who's going to be the bigger author?" question though. SE is (nearly) six books into his series and yet hasn't sold anything approaching the number of books GRRM has with four. I think this is the approachability problem: I recommended ASoIF to three other people and they all got into the series and really liked it. Yet with MBF none of them got into it at all. A difficult series to pimp, it has to be said. BTW, Werewolf v.2, in your count of each author's books, you neglected the fact that ASoIF also contains two novellas (The Hedge Knight & The Sworn Sword), with a third one awaiting publication next year.

Just started my first-ever MBF re-read. Great how things make much more sense the second time you read GotM ("Oh, THAT's who the guy on Mock's Hold with Paran and Whiskeyjack is! Oh, THAT's why the Empress purged the nobles in DG!" etc).

[Roland]

Imnsho Erikson will NEVER reach even HALF of Martin's fame. But my snobish theory about the reason for this is very simple - he's too sophisticated for mass audience. People want action and sex. Martin gives them both in a neatly wrapped package with labels and a manual. Erikson has his fair share of action and even some sex, but his characters are always a bit more complicated than your avarage Joe would like for his easy fantasy-reading, his story and dialogue is WAY off the charts in terms of complexity (compared to the "who's gonna kick most asses, be called Jon Snow, marry Daeneris and take the throne?" plot)... I'm sorry if I sound like a presumptious bastard, but for me Martin writes for the mass fantasy-reader and Erikson - for the inteligent one. And the truth is simple - such people are ALWAYS a minority...