[Morgoth]

I truly enjoyed Cersei's storyline because it felt so.. possible. I knew why she did what she did, I watch her develop, I chuckled at her growing paranoia and how she was turning what could become a great king into a new jeoffry. I also liked how the queen turned out to be as gifted as she was in handeling the masses and the king. The way I see it, the kingdom may finaly now have good rulers as well as gifted advisors..

[Brys]

Roland said:

Imnsho Erikson will NEVER reach even HALF of Martin's fame. But my snobish theory about the reason for this is very simple - he's too sophisticated for mass audience. People want action and sex. Martin gives them both in a neatly wrapped package with labels and a manual. Erikson has his fair share of action and even some sex, but his characters are always a bit more complicated than your avarage Joe would like for his easy fantasy-reading, his story and dialogue is WAY off the charts in terms of complexity (compared to the "who's gonna kick most asses, be called Jon Snow, marry Daeneris and take the throne?" plot)... I'm sorry if I sound like a presumptious bastard, but for me Martin writes for the mass fantasy-reader and Erikson - for the inteligent one. And the truth is simple - such people are ALWAYS a minority...

Interesting way of looking at it, and one I tend to agree with - but Martin also appeals to the more intelligent fantasy reader. Erikson focuses exclusively on those looking for something more complex, while Martin has a simple, accessible style for your average fantasy reader and a bit more for those who want it. Ultimately, I think that Erikson can therefore go a level beyond Martin in complexity, but it means that Martin will sell better. One series that took a similar approach to Martin is R Scott Bakker, but he managed to incorporate a lot more philosophy and complexity into it. Of course, he hasn't got anything like the same number of readers, but it seems the story that could easily appeal to both the masses and the intelligent fantasy reader.

If you think convincing people Erikson is good, just try and convince people that Mervyn Peake or M John Harrison are good. They aren't much more complex (if even equal to it), but they are far less accessible than the Malazan books. I still need to read A Feast For Crows, but it's not good seeing all of the negative (compared to reactions to the rest of the A Song of Ice and Fire books) reviews. Still, I'm looking forward to reading it when I can.

[Roland]

I agree that Martin also appeals to the more intelligent fantasy reader In fact, I agree with you on all points there.

Btw, I've never even heard of the two authors you mentioned (wrong country, I'm afraid ), but just try convincing the average reader China Mieville is good. Now THAT is something...

[Roland]

Mm, dunno, as far as I know Malazan was very badly recieved in America...

[Hume]

Roland said:

Mm, dunno, as far as I know Malazan was very badly recieved in America...

Sources ?

[Roland]

None I could find right now, but still one needs only look at the sellings in Amazon and compare them to other series from even less known authors...

[Hume]

They may seem less well known to us, but to the masses we cant know because we dont have statistical data to prove otherwise..

Consider this though, in 1999 Gardens of the Moon was nominated for the world fantasy awards http://www.worldfant...wards/2000.html. Considering that American is the biggest audience for authors initially and that it didnt even sell there, It means that a lot of americans ordered it from overseas publishers, or places such as Amazon.ca or uk.
So yes I would say it is doing okay in America as a guess. And Amazon isnt the best of indicators as well.
Unless you have some hard statistical info on it then you cant make any broad generalisations like that..

[Ijon Tichy]

I have to say I enjoyed AFFC very much. I am not a big fan of ASOIF and started reading it with modest expectations, but it really hooked me and even made me reread the previous 3 books so I can understand everything. They were much better the second time around, probably because I skipped the Daenerys chapters and everything about the Wall and constenstrated on the better parts of the series which for me is the political intrigues and machinations. Maybe that's why I liked AFFC so much, there wasn't much about the Wall and Daenerys. The bad part was that Tyrion was missing too, but at least I have something to look forward to in the next book.

Best things about the book for me - Jaime and Brienne and excellent characters, their development was one of the strongest points this time. Yes, not much happened with them in terms of action and plot, but I enjoyed their chapters very much. Cercei's intrigues were also very interesting to me. I've always thought she's not that smart and here this was clearly proven. Sansa's chapters were also very good, especially the first two, mostly because of Littlefinges and his masterful plotting and manipulating everyone with ease. The Dorne chapters were very good as well.
The bad - Samwell continues to be a boring character and his journey here was way, way too long and streched out. It started to remind me of Wo's latest installments, which is not good. At least two thirds of this could've been cut with no loss for the story.
Arya's plotline bored me too.

What I hated the most were the cliffhangers at the end of three of the plotlines. I hated those things. If they aren't resolved in the next book (especially a certain one of those cliffhangers), I will be seriously pissed off.

I am not surprised at all at martin's huge popularity compared to Ericson. ASOIF is much easier to read, there's a lot of things which appeal to the lowest common denominator type fantasy readers - a lot of sex scenes, gore, numerous battles, a quest to save the world from the evil monsters (The Others), etc. That's not the case with Erikson.

Of course, there's a lot in ASOIF for the more sophisticated readers too.

[Hume]

@ Ijon Ticy
Yep I pretty much agree with on your AFFC review thing.. I enjoyed it personally.. I hadnt read a whole book in while and that got 'back' into reading now.

Ijon Tichy said:

I am not surprised at all at martin's huge popularity compared to Ericson. ASOIF is much easier to read, there's a lot of things which appeal to the lowest common denominator type fantasy readers - a lot of sex scenes, gore, numerous battles, a quest to save the world from the evil monsters (The Others), etc. That's not the case with Erikson.

Of course, there's a lot in ASOIF for the more sophisticated readers too.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here..
I think Erikson dosent have as much appeal to the masses initially but if people can move past their 'traditional' fantasy I can see it happeneing

[McLovin]

Most of 'em are reading DG in that bunker in Iraq where the WMD's are...

[Brys]

Roland said:

I agree that Martin also appeals to the more intelligent fantasy reader In fact, I agree with you on all points there.

Btw, I've never even heard of the two authors you mentioned (wrong country, I'm afraid ), but just try convincing the average reader China Mieville is good. Now THAT is something...

The two authors I mentioned were the main influences on Mieville, and Mieville, by comparison, is relatively straightforward and easy to read. Peake wrote the Gormenghast trilogy 1946-1959, but as it coincided with Tolkien's LotR, it's been forgotten far too much (and its not action packed in anything like the same way as most modern epics). Harrison wrote the Viriconium sequence in the 1970s, but due to the emergence of sword and sorcery fantasy and epic fantasy, and it's sheer difficulty by comparison to most of them, has too been forgotten.

Erikson has the potential to appeal to the masses, but I think he's largely overshadowed by Martin. The first book has not just alienated the average reader by its complexity, but a number of other (dare I say more intelligent) readers have been put off by it as well. Bakker will soon have the advantage of having a completed trilogy - I think Bakker is the one most likely to see a large increase in popularity in the near future, and he has a lot more elements that can appeal - but until the Malazan series finishes, or Martin makes some serious mistakes, I think the current situation is likely to remain.

Interesting thing I just saw: Jordan's next book is to be called "A Memory of Light". Do you think maybe he's now noticed Erikson's "Memories of Ice"? That said, it's the best title in the series so far (even if it doesn't prove to be the best book).

[QuickTidal]

Brys said:

Interesting thing I just saw: Jordan's next book is to be called "A Memory of Light". Do you think maybe he's now noticed Erikson's "Memories of Ice"? That said, it's the best title in the series so far (even if it doesn't prove to be the best book).

Jordan is a bleeding hack, I wouldn't put it past him.

[Roland]

I still think "The Dragon Reborn" has certain... poetry in it and I like it better. Thanks for the info on the two guys btw Might be worth reading their books... But I agree Erikson does have the potential to appeal to the masses. They just need to learn patience

[Ijon Tichy]

Quote

It isnt? I remember quite a bit of gore, battles and a big looming threat (the crippled god).

There is some, of course, but nowhere near the amount there is in ASOIF. Plus, the Crippled God is not established as the main bad guy before book 3.

And of course, the biggest problem with Erikson and his mass reader appeal is that he refuses to just stop the flow of the book and flat out explain the readers the basics of his created world using conventional methods like the wise old bard, etc. The readers should add all the pieces together themselves and that's difficult and confusing for many.

On the Jordan's new title - I personally think it's not that good, I like "Memories of ice" much better as a title. I doubt it has influenced Jordan, though. It's just a typical fantasy title. I often wonder why the hell 90% of the books in the genre should be called "X of Y".

[Hume]

Ijon Tichy said:

There is some, of course, but nowhere near the amount there is in ASOIF. Plus, the Crippled God is not established as the main bad guy before book 3.

".

Thats a fair call.. As much as a I like martin as an author, one of things I didnt like about him was that bugger all happened with the baddies (The others) until the end of Book 3.
He introduces them in the prologue of book 1, but nothing happens with them for ages. They make a bit of an attack at the end of book 3 but retreat.

With Erikson he introduced him the in first book, but only in an offhand way but the CG was the threat (the big bad threat) in the third book.
The others havent even been a big bad threat yet.

[QuickTidal]

Ijon Tichy said:

There is some, of course, but nowhere near the amount there is in ASOIF. Plus, the Crippled God is not established as the main bad guy before book 3.

And of course, the biggest problem with Erikson and his mass reader appeal is that he refuses to just stop the flow of the book and flat out explain the readers the basics of his created world using conventional methods like the wise old bard, etc. The readers should add all the pieces together themselves and that's difficult and confusing for many.

On the Jordan's new title - I personally think it's not that good, I like "Memories of ice" much better as a title. I doubt it has influenced Jordan, though. It's just a typical fantasy title. I often wonder why the hell 90% of the books in the genre should be called "X of Y".

Dude, seriously, what I (and from what I hear) ALOT of people like about SE is exactly the fact that he doesn't spell it out for you. What is the fun in Joe blow showing up and saying, "Hi, I am Joe Blow, this is what I do, and here's why I do it.". BORING. I'm not saying Martin does that but, honestly I LOVE the fact that we aren't sure who the big baddie is in the Malazan books until the 3rd. I mean, in a ten book series you shouldn't blow your wad right away. But then again, some, like Jordan, and Goodkind ect. give you the big baddie right off, but then they have to figure out what to fill 10 books with, and if they aren't careful the series ends up bloated and meaningless.

Erickson is telling his story on a much grander scope than others might, and so, like a TRULY good storyteller, you won't know what's gonna happen till....well till it happens.

[werewolfv2]

Duiker said:

Well, that's also what Martin is doing, isn't it?

Martin is doing that however his world/story/etc is on a smaller scale.

Ijon Tichy said:

And of course, the biggest problem with Erikson and his mass reader appeal is that he refuses to just stop the flow of the book and flat out explain the readers the basics of his created world using conventional methods like the wise old bard, etc. The readers should add all the pieces together themselves and that's difficult and confusing for many.

".

true, that's the problem with getting readers to try Erikson, too many people are lazy and want to have everything spelled out in front of them. The fact that Erikson doesn't do it is one of the reasons why he is one of the best Authors in the fantasy genre.