[Roland]

Drop the drama, please "Venom and spite"? COME ON. I'm just being a bitch and a flamer a.k.a. my usual charming self Don't take it so hard. Beside, I already said that I like Martin. I'm just somewhat pissed off by some of the things he's doing in and outside his books and am making a world war about it Don't mind me

[jayisspecial]

The real world contains horrible acts, every single day.. Inspite the evolution of society, women are still raped daily, and it's not done in a pleasant manner. Most fantasies shy away from this darker side of society, and in turn they become a lighter, more fluff like product. Reading Martin's novels, I was transported and entranced in the world he had created. The villains were not dastardly men with mustaches who hatched trite plots for magic swords and unicorns, but smart and sometimes truly evil individuals after nothing more than to personally advance their status. The good guys were not like 90% of fantasy good guys, farm boys who are given a destiny and told to defeat evil. In fact, in Martin's world a farm boy would find his throat slit the first night on the road. This to me was eye opening. Fantasy can mirror our world while taking its own liberties, thus ensuring that it is fantastical.

I can understand why someone shy away from this, but I don't think it should be lauded as immoral. Sex and violence may not mean quality, but the more you have the more mature the audience should be in order to seperate it from reality as well as to see its proper purpose.


Please, do not claim that any instance committed in Martin's books has not taken place a thousand times in history. Do not even propose that the events Martin depicts are not still happening. There is ugliness in the world that require all but 5 minutes of Google to find thanks to the Internet. While Martin's books were refreshing in many respects, they are still in fact Fluff compared to reality.

Oh, and I find myself truly annoyed by Terry Goodkinds political babble, and truly hate seeing it come through in his writing. Yet I still read it, because it is but a minor flaw. Martin does not take it into his writing, and he is far less vocal.

[Roland]

Oook, a few things:

1) I know what the real world is. But if I wanted to read about it, I'd read newspapers, not fantasy. I don't say fantasy should shy from it, but I don't need it. Lots of things are "real" yunno, like a man, raping a little boy with a tree-branch (it happend half an year ago in a park in the center of my city in broad daylight) for example, but I can't figure out in what way a book would score points by depicting such a thing (and yes, I know there is nothing like this in Martin's books, I'm just talkin theory here).

2) No one ever said anything about this being immoral. I said it's bad taste when it's too much and in Martin's books it sometimes is.

3) I totally don't agree about sex and violence targeting more mature audience. Of course there is a level of childishness in many fantasy books which repels older readers. But for me "mature" equals not rapings and bloodshed but intelligent plot and so-what-was-the-deal-with-the-f-here?-isticated characters. Mature readers like books with emotional and psychological depth (like Erikson's). Blood and sex are for grown-up-wanabee teens who think Eddings is SO below them but don't know in what direction to point their raging hormones.


I think many people might take the third notion in this post as offensive but believe me - it is not directed to anyone here. I just don't find brutality and maturity connected in any way. In fact, they are quite the opposete.

[Lather]

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Now you give ME some credit I've never practised my written english and I'm sure it's still better than your bulgarian


P.S. And no, I'm not a writer, although I do write short stories on occasion. I'm a violinist

oh i get it now!! BulGARian!!! and a rather hard-a**ed one at that!!
AND a violinist!! a meticulous musician, no doubt!! (i never notice where people are writing from around here)
oh darling, i have NO bulgarian!!! i'm a san francisco transplant from kentucky!! you should HEAR my ackse-unt!! i've been told i can make a two syllable word out of D-I-P!! dee-up! so in that, you have me, absolutely. aren't you glad i TOLD you how to spell sophisticated? the word looks so much better with ph rather than ff, don't you think?
anyway, the correction was kindly intended, and i still think you're being hard on the guy, even with your extensive vitriolic justification! but as we are all entitled to our opinions, yours is yours and that you stand by it is admirable.

[Roland]

It is at that, ain't it

Btw, I'm sure I wrote soPHisticated at leas seven timesin this topic before the sad occurance of the ff

[Blind]

I'll just add that for me there's no possibility of forgetting Martin's series, even if he takes 5 years to write a book (I waited just as long for sequels to the Dark Tower series). There are many other series to read in the meantime, but I'd still be there even after ten years.

[RodeoRanch]

This thread amuses me.

Continue.

[Lather]

Blind said:

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(I waited just as long for sequels to the Dark Tower series).

EXACTLY!! and for WHAT i ask you. we should have seen THAT ending coming a mile away, huh Blind. but wait we did.

RodeoRanch said:

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This thread amuses me.

how so? i'm interested.

bluesman said:

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Since Roland is a violinist. Would you rather have Paganini rush out his works to "please his fans". Rather than take his time and provide masterpieces we still listen to .

And no. I'm not comparing GRRM to Paganini or Hemingway but the same privileges applies to all artists. Even you(if you also compose that is) .

my feelings exactly. thanks for being more articulate than me!!

[Roland]

Paganini composed his works almost over a night (ok, I'm exaggerating but he WAS fast) and even if he didn't, he never had "fans" in the way today's "artists" do Of course no one can tell you how fast to write. And of course you should take your time. But that doesn't mean you do it fast enough

This is getting nowhere, did anyone notice that? But it's nice chat anyway.

And yes, we waited aeons for the end of the Dark Tower (my nickname comes from there, when I was younger, it used to be "Roland of Gilead", so I guess I was pretty hooked up) to get... something... not really right.

Although for me King is unique in that he could NEVER finish his stories properly (only exception I can think of is "It") so maybe time is not really a factor. But this is a conversation for another topic

[Brys]

Roland, I agree with you on the sex and violence thing, but I wouldn't apply it to Martin - where he uses it, most of the time it is very important to the plot. There are a few exceptions where it's excessive, but they're rare. I think Martin provides a high level of emotional depth to his stories - perhaps not quite as much as Erikson does, and not close to Peake, but it still exists far more than in the average epic fantasy.

Also, however vitriolic you're being at Martin at the moment, be assured that his most hardcore fans are always far more vitriolic towards every other author (especially when they started claiming that Moorcock and Mieville were incompetent while Martin was a genius).

[Roland]

Mieville? Incompetent? Now I've heard everything

And this only comes to prove that "fan"-dom is an abomination unto Nuggan

[MoP]

The vitriolic behaviour and attitude of Martin's fans towards other writers is probably the key reason I never got into that community. There is almost a hive-mind mentality at times over there. It's happened on a couple of other boards as well - Terry Goodkind's is notorious for not allowing criticism of his books to be aired on the board (understandably I guess given the entire board would be turned into a raging argument over the merits or otherwise of his works), and to a lesser extent, Tad Williams' Shadowmarch boards.

As for the 5 year wait, I have to admit that I am now less of a fan than I was when ASoS came out basically because I haven't read the books since (haven't had time - I'm only just managing my first reread of MBotF, have a heap of other books to read and find it difficult to find time to read these days) and the story is a dim and distant memory. That is probably Martin's biggest problem with this novel - because it has been so long between drinks some middling fans may drop away because of such a long wait.

[Morgoth]

@Roland - I'm convinced that specific Pratchett book is more than just a bit influenced by tMBotF

Anyways, whats the url to this GRRM forum? I need to see the stupidity with my own eyes

[Roland]

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As for the 5 year wait, I have to admit that I am now less of a fan than I was when ASoS came out basically because I haven't read the books since (haven't had time - I'm only just managing my first reread of MBotF, have a heap of other books to read and find it difficult to find time to read these days) and the story is a dim and distant memory.

My point exactly Only my english is too lame to express it


@ Morgoth - which one? I've read them all (at least all the Discworld ones and most of the others) and never felt MBotF influence in them... But Gardens of the Moon had some strange Pratchettness at times and the humour in Midnight Tides is SO Discworld Also Whiskeyjack (and basically all the other Bridgeburners) are Vimes But I'd be interested in your view.

[Brys]

Roland said:

Mieville? Incompetent? Now I've heard everything

And this only comes to prove that "fan"-dom is an abomination unto Nuggan

I can point you to the exact thread, if you want. I've even heard it said somewhere that Moorcock shouldn't be writing fantasy (lol - that being said to the most influential living fantasy author). Are Erikson fans better than any other authors? From this site, it seems so - perhaps its only when authors get huge followings that fans get a little extreme. For that matter, on Mieville sites, Moorcock sites, Bakker sites etc I never see the same kind of excessive attack on all other authors.

The link to the GRRM forums (I think its unofficial, but works like these ones - as close to official forums without actually being official author forums):
ASOIAF forums

I think one advantage Erikson has over Martin, irrespective of the time they actually take to write it, is that Erikson's books are relatively self-contained. Each novel has an ending that can be a decent one in itself. If for some reason he had to stop now, it would be a disappointment, but he'd still have a decent series. If Martin had to stop writing now, the plot would be incomplete and a much bigger disappointment to all his fans. It also means that Erikson can take much longer and still keep his plans happy, because we aren't waiting for a conclusion, unlike with Martin. That said, I'm not complaining about how long he takes - I've got plenty to read as it is.

Roland, I'd disagree that Midnight Tides is so Discworld in its humour - at least based on the two Discworld novels I read. Its IMO far more similar to Fritz Leiber's style of humour (that, admitedly, was an influence on Pratchett, to some extent, but the humour part is still very distinctive of Pratchett). If they are quite similar, which Discworld novels would you suggest are closest - I may have been missing out on some decent humour if they are as good.

Edit: Just in case you want evidence for the offending thread (not trying to overgeneralise here - there are many Martin fans who are entirely reasonable, but those forums don't seem to show that many of them):
Mieville v Martin v Moorcock

This comment is just amusing:

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But GRRM is on a whole different plane of writing ability than Meiville

[Roland]

Well, Mael was a bit of an Igor to me And some of the conversations betwen him and Tehol were just... I don't know, they had this illogical absurdist feel to them that I connect with Pratchett from his middle period (Moving Pictures, Small Gods, Guards Guards)...

As for extremity in fans... I'm sorry to say it and I'm SO gonna be flamed now, but I believe being extreme in ANY way is bad, unhealthy and... plain stupid. For me the fact that Erikson's, Mieville's or Bakker's fans are more... calm... speaks only one simple truth - they, just like the authors they read, are a bit more intelligent

[Matrim]

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But GRRM is on a whole different plane of writing ability than Meiville

But that's true... GRRM is on a lower plane of writing ability than Mieville, I mean..

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I think one advantage Erikson has over Martin, irrespective of the time they actually take to write it, is that Erikson's books are relatively self-contained. Each novel has an ending that can be a decent one in itself. If for some reason he had to stop now, it would be a disappointment, but he'd still have a decent series. If Martin had to stop writing now, the plot would be incomplete and a much bigger disappointment to all his fans. It also means that Erikson can take much longer and still keep his plans happy, because we aren't waiting for a conclusion, unlike with Martin.

Well said. Maybe that's why I am more impatient for WoT 11 than for The Bonehunters despite the fact I rate Eriskon a lot higher than Jordan.

[Morgoth]

@Roland - That would be monsterous regiment.. I mean, the cheesemongers have as a motto; first in, last out. Theire standard is a burning cheese depiced more or less exactly like the bridgeburners burning bridge. Their sergant is named Jackrum and is a hardy veteran known and feared by next to all and so on and so forth. (similar to Whiskeyjack no?) .. I thought you realised since you mentioned Nuggan..

Anyways, my impression of the typical Erikson fan is that he/she read a lot meaning they have a wider range of reading experience to base their opinion on.. GRRM and especially Goodkind fans often seem to read nothing but that particular author.