[QuickTidal]

Down the shitter in the great flush, on 01 June 2022 - 03:52 AM, said:

Hmm I ll look forward to your report on Fallen Star.

I'm almost at the end of INTO THE DARK, and I only recall her using parentheses maybe 3 times? It's not a bad tic at all in this book.

I'll be reading Vol. 1 of THE HIGH REPUBLIC comic (by Cavan Scott) next before I go into THE RISING STORM (following the canon reading order suggested by the official site).

I'll definitely weigh in once I've read FALLEN STAR.

So far I'm REALLY liking Master Cohmac (He's almost Qui-Gon-like in his near rejection of some of the more dogmatic Jedi rules) and Reath Silas who I believe are both the leads of MIDNIGHT HORIZON (post-FALLEN STAR), so I'm also looking fwd to that.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 01 June 2022 - 12:07 PM

[Briar King]

Cohmac is cool. They are in

Spoiler

Shadows

to. I hope I didn’t ruin that for you but you seemed to know that they are in Midnight..

This post has been edited by Down the shitter in the great flush: 01 June 2022 - 07:04 PM

[Tavvar]

I just finished listening to The Fallen Star, and while I enjoyed it, something felt a bit off. I still don't quite buy the Nihil as capable enemies of the Jedi. I think the authors have left a bit too much as a mystery for the readers; to the level that I feel pieces are missing.

I just started listening to the original Thrawn series to see if I can try to figure out why I like that better than High Republic. I think HR has potential, but it feels too slow at times. I also think there's a bit too much interconnectivity between the books aimed at different ages. I'm not reading/listening to the YA books, and am clearly missing pieces.


(also, I loved Geode in Fallen Star, hilarious).

[QuickTidal]

Started MIDNIGHT HORIZONS (which I believe is the capper book to Phase 1 of The High Republic), and the events in it happen concurrent with FALLEN STAR/Starlight Beacon crashing, and it's already nice to be back with Cohmac and especially Reath, two characters who are missing from FALLLEN...but I just realized that they go off world (To Corellia) when the station starts to fall....means that people like Lula, Torban Buck, and some others are in for some variations of death or mystery.

[QuickTidal]

PATH OF DECEIT by Tessa Gratton & Justina Ireland, which is a YA novel, but since it's kicks off Phase 2, I decided to start with it (Note: I own all of Phase 2, just had not gotten round to starting it yet, but Phase 3 is around the corner, so I figured I'd better get on that).

I want to preface this by saying that I THINK that jumping back 150 years into the past from Phase 1 was a mistake (and PATH OF DECEIT does not dissuade me from that feeling). I ended up caring A LOT about the characters and Jedi in Phase 1...so pushing me so far in the past that no one I know from that era exists is asking a lot, especially when Phase 3 will simply return to those Phase 1 characters some time after the destruction of Starlight Beacon.

PATH OF DECEIT should have been a prologue. The whole damned book is like a long extended prologue...

spoilers

Spoiler

This is very YA and often drops into almost cringy CW-esque romance subplots, which included (for some reason that pertains not to plot), polyamory and descriptions of a characters breasts (this was super weird to see in a Star Wars novel, not the least of which is a YA Star Wars novel)...I don't really care about those two things being present, but since they served no purpose I was like "Why are you telling me this?"

The core of the plot to this novel is about explaining where that beastie that can nullify the force (The Great Leveller that Marchion and Co. Awoke from ice in Phase 1) came from. It was from an egg, and somewhere there is a planet full of them? It's found by a force artifact thief named (I kid you not) fucking Sunshine. We only see the one who eventually gets frozen and woken later on. The rest of the plot is mostly about Marchion Ro's ancestor's (sisters Yana and Marda Ro) who belong to a force cult called The Path of the Open Hand who believe that using the force is an abomination and should be stopped. They "collect" force artifacts to "liberate" them for this purpose and oppose people like The Jedi at some cult fundamental level. Marda falls for a Jedi Padawan of course. This match is doomed. Oh yeah, neither of the Jedi in the book survive it. They are both killed by the Leveller when it is hatched. That's part of why this felt like a prologue....when characters are introduced to die later just to show the "beastie" is dangerous (something we know about since we saw more than one Jedi be petrified at the hands of the Leveller in Phase 1. We even saw the "rod" that commands/attracts the Leveller. So why we needed these two Jedi to die to show how fearsome this thing is and how much of an upper hand this gives the Ro's and the Path....is baffling to me. Do I care about Marchion Ro's family/past/ancestry? No. Should I? I dunno, I know pretty much all I need to know about him. You are not going to humanize him by showing me he was birthed into a force Cult.

This apparently sets up the names and threat that occur across Phase 2....and like, again.....you already showed me that the Nihil (who obviously come from the Path of the Open Hand), Ro, their ship The Electric Gaze (which is being built in this novel) are a threat in Phase 1. You got me invested in a tonne of Jedi. I FELT some of their deaths at the end of Phase 1....I wanted nothing more than to see that story continued...but no, apparently we had to wade into the past to see how all of that got set up...?

I dunno man, I liked the fact that Ro had his own reasons to do what he does, and that the Jedi survive until they don't. Gratton and Ireland gave me two Jedi as cannon fodder for their point...and just no. No one needed this. It's overkill. THE RISING STORM and FALLEN STAR already showed us all this shit....hell even INTO THE SHADOWS showed us this.

And quite frankly, I really an more invested in the Fall now in Phase 3....we know that in the new JEDI: SURVIVOR game, one of the antagonists (perhaps the biggest one) is a high Republic Jedi who was in stasis since that era, and upon waking he's ANGRY at the current Jedi....“How could you let this galaxy fall to this unworthy machine of an Empire?”....Like I LOVE this. I love that the odds at which the High Republic Jedi would be with Prequel Era monk/Warrior Jedi who shunned emotions. Like the tenet in the HR era is that you need to allow emotions to FLOW through you with the force. They still avoid attachment, but they don't reject emotions outright like the Prequel Jedi do. It's a KEY differentiating trait between the eras. I want to explore how one led to the other....I could give a fuck about the Phase 2 events really if they are all just going to centre around how the bad guys became the bad guy...seriously.

It's not a terrible book, it's just weak one without much of a point.

NOTE: I'm in the minority here as many people loved this book. I just hope CONVERGENCE by Zoraida Cordova, and CATACLYSM by Lydia Kang are better. I don't want to hate Phase 2, I want it to deliver characters and settings I am compelled to learn about.

Oh, I should note that the Mother character is built in a creepy and good way...that was an actual highlight of PATH If I had to give it one.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 12 April 2023 - 01:34 PM

[QuickTidal]

100 pages into CONVERGENCE by Zoraida Cordova, and she made me care more about the side characters in this one in that little amount of time than Ireland and Gratton made me care about MAIN characters in the entirely of PATH....so yeah, this is more like it. Enjoying!

[the broken]

I'm pretty crushed by that description of Jedi Survivor, Quick. I haven't often lost so much interest so quickly. I was wondering what they were going to do, because most of the available antagonists are either far beneath Cal or far above him

Spoiler

I can't believe they're still using 'complain about the prequel Jedi' to prop up their stories. They're genocide victims, what the hell? It's bafflingly awful.

[QuickTidal]

the broken, on 13 April 2023 - 10:40 PM, said:

I'm pretty crushed by that description of Jedi Survivor, Quick. I haven't often lost so much interest so quickly. I was wondering what they were going to do, because most of the available antagonists are either far beneath Cal or far above him

Spoiler

I can't believe they're still using 'complain about the prequel Jedi' to prop up their stories. They're genocide victims, what the hell? It's bafflingly awful.

Honestly, It's much more nuanced than that. The High Republic Jedi really do allow much more emotion in their lives, and work better WITH the force, and have a tonne of "sub sects" like Wayseeker's (who just go off to be around the force and experience it in their own ways and discover what they will about it)....in contrast the Prequel Jedi are straight laced, with a narrow focus that is not allowed to waver.

The evidence for this exists in Qui-Gon Jin actually. Qui-Gon was literally trying to espouse these things to the Council....a council that contained one High Republic Era Master (Yoda) and that the Jedi had become to set in their ways to see the danger at their doorstep...and no one listened to him. If Qui-Gon had been able to train Anakin, does the Republic fall? Likely not. Pay attention to Count Dooku's words in ATTACK OF THE CLONES to Obi-Wan...

Count Dooku:
It's a great pity that our paths have never crossed before, Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon always spoke very highly of you. I wish he were still alive. I could use his help right now.

Obi-Wan Kenobi:
Qui-Gon Jinn would never join you.

Dooku:
Don't be so sure, my young Jedi. You forget that he was once my apprentice, just as you were once his. He knew all about the corruptions of the Senate, but he would never have gone along with it if he had learned the truth as I have.

Kenobi:
The truth?

Dooku:
The truth. What if I told you that the Republic is now under the strict control of the Dark Lords of the Sith?

Kenobi:
No, that's not possible! The Jedi would be aware it!

Dooku:
The Dark Side of the Force has clouded their vision, my friend. Hundreds of senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious.

Kenobi:
I don't believe you.

Dooku:
The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this Darth Sidious, but he was betrayed ten years ago by the Dark Lord. He came to me for help; he told me everything. The Jedi Council wouldn't believe him. I've tried many times to warn them, but they wouldn't listen. By the time they sense the Dark Lord's presence, it would already be too late. You must join me, Obi-Wan, and together we will destroy the Sith!

Kenobi:
I will never join you, Dooku.

Dooku:
[coldly] It may be difficult to secure your release.

He also says to Mace Windu in The TALES tv series: "My friend, your devotion to rules is sometimes inspiring and sometimes maddening."...this is an intentional comment on not being able to see the forest for the trees.

He also said this to Qui-Gon when he was young and still his Padawan: "I’ve been warning them about the coming darkness for years, never to be taken seriously."

Dooku turns from the light because no one on the light side will LISTEN to him.

So it's less "complain about the prequel Jedi" and more "show the contrast between Jedi at their HEIGHT, and Jedi before their fall from grace". There are a bunch of REALLY good and heroic Jedi in the Prequels...but they are working inside a FLAWED system is the problem. Every time someone brings up a good point to the Council, the council rejects it. Look at Mace Windu....he was right, Palpatine was too dangerous to live, and the High Republic Jedi would have offed him because their connection to the force would have told them he was an aberration within it. But even Mace hesitates because he's been a part of the monklike council for too long. Anakin insisting that Palpatine stand trial is the Emperor talking, not the Jedi.

And if we want to talk about Yoda, I could see the events of the 3rd Phase of The High Republic being the very events that CAUSE him to pull in and become so monklike, insular, and too narrowly aimed....so we don't BLAME him for what happens when the Jedi fall, but the events around him shaped him into who he was in the Prequels that allowed for that. For good or ill.

For me that's added a TONNE of nuance to Star Wars as a whole, and I love it. And Luke's Academy fails for the same reasons the Republic Jedi did under Yoda...because he's sticking to the rules they set out, the narrow insular ones. Ben Solo goes bad becuase his master (and uncle) literally trusts a random force vision over actual communing with the force in a more intimate way.....he eventually does this in TLJ when he tells Leia that "no one is ever really gone" about her son. He'd finally done the thing he could not bring himself to do under Yoda/Obi-Wan's teachings....dive further into the force and see.

Are they genocide victims? Sure. We gotta give Palpatine credit for what he did to manipulate the whole thing and make it all happen.....but the High Republic Jedi would have sussed him out (and Plagueis, who was alive just prior to the Phantom Menace) had they been around simply by dint of their connection to the living force.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 14 April 2023 - 12:52 PM

[the broken]

No one else does any better, though. The Sith were alive in High Republic times, and they were never found. There are still Sith in the prequel era because the High Republic Jedi failed to find them

The High Republic Jedi fall for deceptions many times, they don't have any special insights.

Spoiler

As far as Rising Storm:

Bell doesn't know Loden is alive even though he should know that through the Force. The Jedi are repeated;y tricked into believing that Kassav and the Lourna are the leader of the Nihil, even though every single Nihil knows otherwise. Orla follows the Will of the Force... and unleashes the Drengir on the galaxy, with all the death and suffering that entails. I haven't read Fallen Star yet, but Starlight falls. It's easy for them to think 'this never would have happened to us' when they were never tested, the High Republic Jedi had major difficulty with a large gang of pirates. They're not better at sniffing out deceptions, they get tricked all the time.

Qui Gonn didn't have special insight into Sidious plans. He can stand right next to Palpatine on Coruscant and doesn't detect him. He got played like a fiddle like everyone else.

Ditto Dooku.

Dooku's revelation is 'the republic is corrupt', but he doesn't have any plan to address it other than 'become a dictator.'

Qui Gon's revelation is 'slavery is bad', but he doesn't have any plan to address it. The Jedi Council already knows both those things, but neither of them bring any solutions to the table.

Qui regards Obi Wan, the super submissive apprentice who apologises for disagreeing with him, as 'headstrong;, how well would he have handled an actual headstrong apprentice like Anakin?

We keep seeing stories like Master and Apprentice or Dooku: Jedi Lost, where the narrative goes out of its way to complain about the failures of the Jedi. But they don't offer any kind of actual way forward, because they can't come up with anything. Maybe we'll finally get that with Rey's newer Jedi Order. But it is much much easier for a writer to play the 'complain about the Jedi' card instead, so they keep doing that. Normally that would be okay, if unimaginative but when they're genocide victims it gets a bit disturbing.

Even when they've all been dead for fifty years, Luke is STILL blaming the Jedi. They're all dead, no one is forcing you to follow their ways. It's bizarre.

This post has been edited by the broken: 15 April 2023 - 12:33 AM

[QuickTidal]

Yeah , okay man. I guess hate on it? I clearly can’t help you.

[the broken]

Fair enough, that was overly dramatic of me. Still, I think it's a fair question. If High Republic Era Jedi would have sniffed out Palpatine with no issues, how come they didn't sniff out the existing Sith in the High Republic Era?


I think it actually takes away nuance to boil it down to 'your religion is flawed' instead of 'it's a vast complex situation with no easy answers'

[Abyss]

Or maybe 'the story would have been really boring if the good guys caught the bad guys before they could do anything bad'.

[the broken]

There is that, but if the premise of your story is 'these people are better than these other people' but the portrayal is of them performing much more poorly, maybe try basing your story on a different premise?

The writers are inviting the comparison by saying 'these are the Jedi when they were better' but if they are frequently being tricked by Marchion Ro, why should we think they would do better against Palpatine's much better deceptions?

[Abyss]

Because their struggle in the face of adversity and eventual triumph over greater forces is the entire point of the story.

Maybe I'm wrong but your point seems to be the Jedi should be infallible and infallible heroes make for boring stories. That the Jedi are imperfect and fail but return again and again is the point, not the problem. That the Sith are effective but are undone by their own nature is the other half of it.

[the broken]

No, not what I'm getting at. Of course they're flawed, everyone and everything is, but the idea that the High Republic Jedi are less flawed or 'fixed' versions of the PT Jedi doesn't work for me.

QT said this earlier

Quote

Are they genocide victims? Sure. We gotta give Palpatine credit for what he did to manipulate the whole thing and make it all happen.....but the High Republic Jedi would have sussed him out (and Plagueis, who was alive just prior to the Phantom Menace) had they been around simply by dint of their connection to the living force.

Which leaves me asking, 'why do you think that?' We see the High Republic Jedi in action, they're not immune to being tricked or making mistakes, or massively mistaking the source of the Dark Side. But that does seem to be the HR author's position if you look at the interviews. So I do think it's a fair question if you're of the opinion that they would easily have detected Palpatine, why they didn't detect the Sith in the HR era?

We'll see what happens when Jedi Survivot comes out, but

Spoiler

Malicos was saying the same kind of things, and I really want Lucasfilm to start doing something, anything else other than 'the Jedi way was flawed, and that was why they were exterminated'. It's a bad path to go down.

This post has been edited by the broken: 23 April 2023 - 07:10 PM

[QuickTidal]

the broken, on 23 April 2023 - 07:09 PM, said:

No, not what I'm getting at. Of course they're flawed, everyone and everything is, but the idea that the High Republic Jedi are less flawed or 'fixed' versions of the PT Jedi doesn't work for me.

QT said this earlier

Quote

Are they genocide victims? Sure. We gotta give Palpatine credit for what he did to manipulate the whole thing and make it all happen.....but the High Republic Jedi would have sussed him out (and Plagueis, who was alive just prior to the Phantom Menace) had they been around simply by dint of their connection to the living force.

Which leaves me asking, 'why do you think that?' We see the High Republic Jedi in action, they're not immune to being tricked or making mistakes, or massively mistaking the source of the Dark Side. But that does seem to be the HR author's position if you look at the interviews. So I do think it's a fair question if you're of the opinion that they would easily have detected Palpatine, why they didn't detect the Sith in the HR era?

[size="2"]We'll see what happens when Jedi Survivot comes out, but

Spoiler

Malicos was saying the same kind of things, and I really want Lucasfilm to start doing something, anything else other than 'the Jedi way was flawed, and that was why they were exterminated'. It's a bad path to go down.

I thought I explained it well enough, apparently not.

It's because the High Republic Jedi are known to let their feelings and emotions flow through them more freely, leading to less direct "fear" and "paranoia" of the things around them. The Prequel Jedi have become so afraid of falling even into a gray lightsided way of life that even WaySeekers are no longer allowed at all, and there is only ONE Grandmaster of the Jedi Order (in the High Republic there are deliberately three so no one person can decide the fate of the many and make a mistake). There's a reason that the Council in the Prequels keeps things so close to their chests. This is why they lost Dooku and would have eventually lost Qui Gun too. Good, solid Jedi who dared to question how far the Jedi had fallen in their quest to not become the thing they feared.

The High Republic Jedi didn't fear that sort of thing, and the whole Order at the time was basically allowed to follow whatever path they felt they needed to. In the Prequels, had they taken place during the HR, Ahsoka would not have had to leave the Order...she could have become a Wayseeker....this is essentially what she is now anyways.

Spoiler

Quote

Malicos was saying the same kind of things, and I really want Lucasfilm to start doing something, anything else other than 'the Jedi way was flawed, and that was why they were exterminated'. It's a bad path to go down.

So wait, the fact that the Prequel Jedi (and sadly Luke) were flawed you feel that the company is saying the Jedi were "always" flawed?

I'm with Abyss, your need to make the Jedi of the Fall so blameless is weird. I quote Pixar's rules of storytelling # 13: Give your characters opinions. Passive/malleable might seem likable to you as you write, but it’s poison to the audience. The Prequel Jedi being flawed FOLLOWS this rule as Dooku and Qui Gon are the ones that prove that Jedi can have opinions. The same is true of the High Republic Era, it's just with other problems and not the Jedi themselves falling into insular monkdom.

[the broken]

How does any of that help with Palpatine though? Qui Gon doesn't detect him. Ahsoka doesn't detect him. There are plenty of spies and liars in the High Republic era that the Jedi fail to detect, why would they do better against Palpatine?

Spoiler

Ahsoka didn't have to leave the order, she chose to. She doesn't have an actual ideological difference with the Jedi, she has a personal grudge because they didn't protect her from trial.

[QuickTidal]

the broken, on 25 April 2023 - 10:15 PM, said:

How does any of that help with Palpatine though? Qui Gon doesn't detect him. Ahsoka doesn't detect him. There are plenty of spies and liars in the High Republic era that the Jedi fail to detect, why would they do better against Palpatine?

There is/was a dark side 'well/focus' deep beneath the Jedi Temple that Palpatine and eventually Dooku were feeding and using to help blind the Jedi to what was going on AND feed their fears. This well was dormant during the High Republic, and was re-activated by Palpatine's predecessor Plagueis. This is why that era of Jedi fell so hard and were blindsided so cleanly by their own rules.

the broken, on 25 April 2023 - 10:15 PM, said:

Ahsoka didn't have to leave the order, she chose to.

Yes, because she began to question their rules, reasoning they kept largely to themselves.

the broken, on 25 April 2023 - 10:15 PM, said:

She doesn't have an actual ideological difference with the Jedi, she has a personal grudge because they didn't protect her from trial.

That you truly believe Ahsoka had a personal grudge shows me exactly why you fail to get all this. She pulled a Qui-Gon/Dooku in that she questioned their methods and fears...the Jedi Council of the time was SO fearful of the Sith and the dark side that they actively didn't protect one of their own when she was accused of a heinous crime. But if you think this is the only thing that caused Ahsoka to leave the Order, then you weren't paying attention to the whole season that led up to that decision, and anything she said about it after the fact.

[Abyss]

Different takes on the storylines. k fine. No one has to agree.

[the broken]

No, you fool! Nothing is more important than arguing about Star Wars on the Internet!

Quote

<br style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">There is/was a dark side 'well/focus' deep beneath the Jedi Temple that Palpatine and eventually Dooku were feeding and using to help blind the Jedi to what was going on AND feed their fears. This well was dormant during the High Republic, and was re-activated by Palpatine's predecessor Plagueis. This is why that era of Jedi fell so hard and were blindsided so cleanly by their own rules.

Assuming that's true, Qui Gon aand Ahsoka didn't detect the thing under the temple either. They didn't do any better. The people to blame for that is whoever built the temple there in the first place.
It's not some particular flaw of the PT era Jedi that allowed that to happen.


Ahsoka complains a lot, but in terms of what she actually does, nothing is different
.

Spoiler

This leads to fun moments like 'Jedi are not supposed to be soldiers who meddle in politics! Now, give me a republic army to lead into battle so I can meddle in Mandalorian politics!