[Haplo]

Hello everyone,

First of all I want to apologize if the answers to what I amabout to ask are already present here, but I got through the MoI thread and didn'tfind a satisfactory answer to any of my questions. I know there is a thread aboutOnearms host not waiting for Caladan Brood´s part of the army, but it is 2years old, so I was not sure if I should post there.

So, first question– lets repeat that – Why didn't Dujek wait for Caladan and rushed the attack? Okay, there were some thoughts on that already addressed, so let me explain whyI am asking this again:

Pannions were setting up an ambush so someone had to go there first to ensure the trap will not work.

– well, I don't understand – since they actually discovered the trap before it was finished. We have been told that Bridgeburners act as a vanguard and in hiding (at least in the beginning), so why didn't they discover the trap, alert the rest of the forces somehow (magic, birds, riders on quick horses etc.) and tell them "hey guys, stop like 1 mile before the city, there is a trap, lets meet and decide how to handle that". Instead they decided to take those tunnels, alert enemy forces, which subsequently lead to the necessity of doing something so they wouldn't be slaughtered because of doing nothing. But it still doesn't seem very clever.

Paran and Quick Ben had a plan to deal with the Seer by themselves

- Of course they had. But this still doesn't explain why they to go there in such a rush. While trying to get directly to the Seer they didn't rely on a force of their numbers, but rather on magical prowess that QB can provide, so again, why didn't they wait till the whole army is in place,rallied and ready for the attack together (and during the army attack and all the mayhem gone loose just slip the couple inside the city)?

Dujek and Caladan competitiveness, Malazans trying to screw over Caladan

- this one I really don't believe. The whole impression we were getting through all the chapters dedicated to the army march was mutual respect between the former foes, and also none of the army commanders was pictured to be thirsty for wealth or glory or whatever could have he gained from getting there first and conquering the city by himself (would it be even possible). Noone ever said that they wanted Coral for any reason, the only reason stated was that the city need to fall so the Dominoins rule over the land would end.



Second question –What is the power relation between Imass, Jaghut and KCCM?

We have been told that KCCM to Jaghut were similar to Jaghut toward Imass in terms of power. So, KCCM toward Imass should be a total absolute level 9999 overkill . But, Onos Toolan was carving through Kell hunters quite easily while traversing through Coral in order to save Toc. Okay,Imass gained a tremendous amout of power and new abilities by making themselvesT´lan Imass, but weren't also those Kell hunters actually undead? How is it possible that a representant of a race that should way underpowered that KCCM can actually be able to defeat them with such ease?



Last question is not much of a question, maybe it is just my lack of imagination, but I cannot really grasp the whole Mhybe story arc, and the fact that the other story elements were somehow interconnected with it (like Tlan Ay hunting her, Togg being present caged in "her" dream world…is there a common ground on basis of which this can be explained? Something there is in common for all those entities involved? Or do I just need to read again and pay more attention?



Don't get wrong, I like the books very much, after a very longtime something made me really want to read and see whats coming…its just that Idon't understand many things, and I seems I am not able to figure all of them by myself.

So many thanks for any answer,



Tomas

This post has been edited by Haplo: 05 February 2018 - 03:55 PM

[Nevyn]

 Haplo, on 05 February 2018 - 03:52 PM, said:

We have been told that KCCM to Jaghut were similar to Jaghut toward Imass in terms of power.

We have?

I don't recall any discussion of their relative power. Only stories of sequence of their respective societies being dominant. Got a quote?

[Haplo]

 Nevyn, on 05 February 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

 Haplo, on 05 February 2018 - 03:52 PM, said:

We have been told that KCCM to Jaghut were similar to Jaghut toward Imass in terms of power.

We have?

I don't recall any discussion of their relative power. Only stories of sequence of their respective societies being dominant. Got a quote?

Yes I am pretty sure that I have seen this comparison somewhere. I will try to dig up this once I am back home.

EDIT: i dont know the exact page, since I have a czech edition of those books, but its in chapter 15, during the conversation Silverfox is having with Kallor, Caladan, Korlat and co. They are discussing the history of the species and Kallor is sharing some info.
But I think that Alternative Goose explained what it most likely meant, so i am okay with this.

This post has been edited by Haplo: 06 February 2018 - 02:15 PM

[Aptorian]

Question 1: A mix of poor military intel, the Malazans rolling the dice and comeing up short, trying to trick the Panions and possibly preventing something much more apocalyptic.

In terms of politics you have the fact that the Malazans don't really trust or understand Brood and Rake's motivations properly. In one sense, if they could take the Panion's unaware, they could potentially win the war in a day and this would give them leverage in any negotiations afterwards. Think of it like the Allies and Russians invading Germany from two fronts, who gets control?

But more selflessly, it seemed like the Malazans were deliberately sacrificing themselves to trigger what ever trap Panion had and alert the Host. They didn't fully understand how much power Panion had and what kind of forces he was controlling.

You also have the aspect of being worried about what happens if Brood got desperate or angry enough and he just decided to drop the hammer. At best the Panion Domin is destroyed, at worst the world ends. Brood has the nuclear football.

Question 2: The quote goes that The KCCM were to the Jaghut, what the Jaghut were to the Imass. This should probably be understood in the sense of rulers and tyrants. A KCCM Matron at the height of her power was probably as powerful or more powerful than a Jaghut Tyrant. But you shouldn't be thinking that individual KCCM, Jaghut or Imass are the same as Matron, a Jaghut Tyrant or an Imass Bonecaster.

These races had and have their own Ascendants and Mages. People of great power. But the average KCCM is just a drone or a lizard peon. Big scary Dino but not unstoppable. The T'lan Imass on the other hand are not a race of people any longer. They are an undead army of magically enhanced killing machines. They are powered by fire and death and the sacrifice of their rituals.

Tool on top of the enhancements is also the First Sword of the Imass. He's basically an Ascendant. As lethal as Dassem with a sword and far more magically powerful.

As for the Mhybe

The Mhybe is the fulcrum of the gods solution to the Imass desire for peace and an end to their war on the Jaghut.

Hood makes plans to create a tomb for her. The Beast Gods send their wolves to protect her. Meanwhile the Mhybe in her despair at the death she senses coming for her, mistakes the wolves for predators sent by her daughter to eat her in her sleep.

This post has been edited by Alternative Goose: 05 February 2018 - 04:20 PM

[ArchieVist]

Question 1: What Alternative Goose says. This passage between Whiskeyjack and Dujek in chapter 21 usually seems to get overlooked in these discussions:

Quote

'Now I'm the one who's worried,' Whiskeyjack said. 'We've been too clever by far, leaving me wondering who's manipulating whom. We're playing shadowgames with the Lord of Shadow, rattling the chains of the Crippled God, and now buying Brood more time without him even knowing it, whilst at the same time defying the T'lan Imass, or at least intending to …'

'Opportunity, Whiskeyjack. Hesitation is fatal. When you find yourself in the middle of a wide, raging river, there's only one direction to swim in. It's up to us to keep Laseen's head above water – and through her, the Malazan Empire. If Brood swings his hammer in Burn's name – we drown, all of us. Law, order, peace – civilization, all gone.'

'So, to keep Brood from doing that, we sacrifice ourselves by challenging the Crippled God. Us, one damned weary army already decimated by one of Laseen's panics.'

[Siergiej]

It's also important to note that while Whiskeyjack and Dujek respect Rake and Brood personally, they are still soldiers of the Malazan Empire which is proceeding with the conquest of Genabackis. The whole outlawed army thing is a ruse - they want to capture Coral on Laseen's orders.

As for K'Chain powers, there will be more on that later in the books. For now, Alternative Goose made an excellent point. Tool is not an ordinary Imass. He is an ascendant and perhaps their most powerful warrior.

[Haplo]

 Alternative Goose, on 05 February 2018 - 04:16 PM, said:

Question 1: A mix of poor military intel, the Malazans rolling the dice and comeing up short, trying to trick the Panions and possibly preventing something much more apocalyptic.

In terms of politics you have the fact that the Malazans don't really trust or understand Brood and Rake's motivations properly. In one sense, if they could take the Panion's unaware, they could potentially win the war in a day and this would give them leverage in any negotiations afterwards. Think of it like the Allies and Russians invading Germany from two fronts, who gets control?

But more selflessly, it seemed like the Malazans were deliberately sacrificing themselves to trigger what ever trap Panion had and alert the Host. They didn't fully understand how much power Panion had and what kind of forces he was controlling.

You also have the aspect of being worried about what happens if Brood got desperate or angry enough and he just decided to drop the hammer. At best the Panion Domin is destroyed, at worst the world ends. Brood has the nuclear football.

Question 2: The quote goes that The KCCM were to the Jaghut, what the Jaghut were to the Imass. This should probably be understood in the sense of rulers and tyrants. A KCCM Matron at the height of her power was probably as powerful or more powerful than a Jaghut Tyrant. But you shouldn't be thinking that individual KCCM, Jaghut or Imass are the same as Matron, a Jaghut Tyrant or an Imass Bonecaster.

These races had and have their own Ascendants and Mages. People of great power. But the average KCCM is just a drone or a lizard peon. Big scary Dino but not unstoppable. The T'lan Imass on the other hand are not a race of people any longer. They are an undead army of magically enhanced killing machines. They are powered by fire and death and the sacrifice of their rituals.

Tool on top of the enhancements is also the First Sword of the Imass. He's basically an Ascendant. As lethal as Dassem with a sword and far more magically powerful.

As for the Mhybe

The Mhybe is the fulcrum of the gods solution to the Imass desire for peace and an end to their war on the Jaghut.

Hood makes plans to create a tomb for her. The Beast Gods send their wolves to protect her. Meanwhile the Mhybe in her despair at the death she senses coming for her, mistakes the wolves for predators sent by her daughter to eat her in her sleep.

In terms of politics you have the fact that the Malazans don't really trust or understand Brood and Rake's motivations properly. In one sense, if they could take the Panion's unaware, they could potentially win the war in a day and this would give them leverage in any negotiations afterwards. Think of it like the Allies and Russians invading Germany from two fronts, who gets control?
Okay, I can imagine the similarity and comparison to WW2 that you used, but still...army leaders during WW2 had to think about what they will gain, and it was no surprise to anybody (and it was clear that the influence they could have gained is of utmost importance) , but here I got an impression that Caladans army existed solely to get rid of any kind of tyranny on the continent (but simply because of personal disgust towards it), and Onearms host joined them in order to help them with the cause (they saw Pannion Domin as a lethal threat to all the life in Genabackis, so they joined forces although they were enemies before). Its just that noone from the leaders or any important characters said that Coral was worth anything, or that there was any kind of wealth worth taking. And because of that I cant imagine risking life of Bridgeburnes (and many many other soldiers) just to seize a poor, totally worthless city that is almost entirely eaten.
But, there is no logical explanation that i can think of, so I will have to live with that:)


Brood has the nuclear football.
Okay, we have been told that several times, but if thats the case, why didnt he restrain himself better when Kruppe was getting on his nerves? Yes, he did reshape some of his surroundings, it was spectacular and everyone was shocked, but still - did the world end? No. So Brood is clearly able to control the power of his swing, or the power of the hammer, or simply somehow manage to use the hammer, and not destroy all life. So why didnt he jumped into tose lizards in front of Coral and didnt do a little bit of earthquake killing so there are less casualties? Why did he just look? Its just that sometimes I dont understand the motivation of someone doing something or, in this case, someone not doing a sh*t even though it could have saved the lives of many.

KCCM/Jaghut/Imass comparison - okay, I get it. Its just that I find hard to believe that Jaghuts, a society (or, unsociety for that matter) of very powerful individuals, that very rarely lived in larger groups, has been under tyranny of some sort of elder society the same as Imass, that were much more "enslave friendly" due to them being not very powerful individually, but making their living on basis of cooperation and coexistence. These are totally different power levels, totally different social models.
But okay, I can live with that:)

There is other thing, much more simple, that bothers me and I forgot to mention it before - why did Korlat lie about Whiskeyjacks broken leg when Dujek and others were examiing the bodies? Is there any reason for that? i am just thinking if she may have any agenda where it would be actually beneficial to make it look so that Whiskeyjack lost because he is not as good swordsman as Kallor, rather than because his injured leg.

Many thanks for your comments:) I like thinking and speculating about the books - a small miracle for me, since I dont like thinking very much in any other aspect of my life:)

[Haplo]

 ArchieVist, on 05 February 2018 - 08:18 PM, said:

Question 1: What Alternative Goose says. This passage between Whiskeyjack and Dujek in chapter 21 usually seems to get overlooked in these discussions:

Quote

'Now I'm the one who's worried,' Whiskeyjack said. 'We've been too clever by far, leaving me wondering who's manipulating whom. We're playing shadowgames with the Lord of Shadow, rattling the chains of the Crippled God, and now buying Brood more time without him even knowing it, whilst at the same time defying the T'lan Imass, or at least intending to …'

'Opportunity, Whiskeyjack. Hesitation is fatal. When you find yourself in the middle of a wide, raging river, there's only one direction to swim in. It's up to us to keep Laseen's head above water – and through her, the Malazan Empire. If Brood swings his hammer in Burn's name – we drown, all of us. Law, order, peace – civilization, all gone.'

'So, to keep Brood from doing that, we sacrifice ourselves by challenging the Crippled God. Us, one damned weary army already decimated by one of Laseen's panics.'

Okay, thank you for the comment - so it seems that they were trying to prevent Brood from using his hammer in the battle? If Brood was portrayed as ruthless demigod not giving any thoughts about lives of his soldiers and friends, I would buy this explanation instantly, but since Brood was depicted as a gloomy, but good hearted strategist (at least thats what I think of him), its kind of a dull justification to go for almost certain death in order to prevent someone doing something he wouldnt do most likely at all. Of course, he did hit Kruppe with the hammer. But the world didnt die.
And even though that whole Onearms host going rogue thing was a ruse, I am not very keen on believing Whiskeyjack or Dujek would let so many of their soldiers die just because Laseen wants some city somewhere at the end of the world. It would make much more sense with Darujhistan, since it is a very rich city, but Coral...
But thats just me having different thoughts:)

[Adhara]

On Korlat's lie, I think she only tries to relieve Mallet's suffering, because he feels guilty for Whiskeyjack unhealed leg.

This post has been edited by Morgan Lefay: 06 February 2018 - 04:00 PM

[ArchieVist]

Don't forget that until the Pannion War, Brood and the Malazans had been fighting each other for years of brutal warfare. It's doubtful they thought of him as being just a goodhearted strategist. Also, he's shown to have a volatile temper and a willingness to use the hammer without thinking. As far as he knew, Kruppe was an annoying flea and he chose to strike him so hard with his nuclear hammer that he created a mountain range. He had no idea Kruppe would survive.

Burn gave Brood the hammer specifically to use in the fashion Dujek and Whiskeyjack feared most. And their fears proved justified at the Battle of Coral when Brood, seeing the overwhelming numbers of KCCM and thinking Rake and Moon's Spawn destroyed, gave in and drew his hammer for the apocalyptic blow.

By the way, it's perfectly reasonable to think the motivations in MoI are confusing and murky, because they are. These are just my conclusions.

[Haplo]

Okay, thanks all for their opinion, i think i connected at least a few dots:) anyone else willing to share their thoughts on that, be my guest:)

[Nevyn]

 Haplo, on 05 February 2018 - 04:02 PM, said:

 Nevyn, on 05 February 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

 Haplo, on 05 February 2018 - 03:52 PM, said:

We have been told that KCCM to Jaghut were similar to Jaghut toward Imass in terms of power.

We have?

I don't recall any discussion of their relative power. Only stories of sequence of their respective societies being dominant. Got a quote?

Yes I am pretty sure that I have seen this comparison somewhere. I will try to dig up this once I am back home.

EDIT: i dont know the exact page, since I have a czech edition of those books, but its in chapter 15, during the conversation Silverfox is having with Kallor, Caladan, Korlat and co. They are discussing the history of the species and Kallor is sharing some info.
But I think that Alternative Goose explained what it most likely meant, so i am okay with this.

Think you may have read into that.

I don't recall a discussion of relative power. Silverfox sees the K'Chain Chemalle potentially coming back ( a matron finding a mate) as a bigger threat than the Jaghut, but that is different than relative power. The tradeoff with the Jaghut has always been that while they are individually massively powerful, they don't tend to work together or have any organized society beyond occasional immediate family ties.

You'll get more info on the K'Chain as the series goes along, and more a sense of how they fit in.

[Itwæs Nom]

Regarding Brood's hammer, I think another reason for staying his hand was the attention that it would draw from other ascendants. Particularly from those aligned with the Crippled God and the opportunistic ones. Like we're often reminded in the books, power draws power and the power of Brood's hammer is immense even among ascendants, so using it against CG's allies would warrant response potentially even more powerful and CG would be entitled to it because hey, Brood started it. Then there's all the ascendants who would be drawn there because of the opportunities to gain more power or influence either by helping one side or the other, or even when staying independent of the 2 main sides of the conflict or even by some sort of scavenging. And the more power is drawn the stronger the magnetic field it generates drawing in more and more and what you're left with is a massive convergence with potential to leave Burn helpless AND destroy all life, or leave survivors at the mercy of CG or some other outcome that would be worse for Brood than awakening Burn.

[Siergiej]

 Haplo, on 06 February 2018 - 03:12 PM, said:

 ArchieVist, on 05 February 2018 - 08:18 PM, said:

Question 1: What Alternative Goose says. This passage between Whiskeyjack and Dujek in chapter 21 usually seems to get overlooked in these discussions:

Quote

'Now I'm the one who's worried,' Whiskeyjack said. 'We've been too clever by far, leaving me wondering who's manipulating whom. We're playing shadowgames with the Lord of Shadow, rattling the chains of the Crippled God, and now buying Brood more time without him even knowing it, whilst at the same time defying the T'lan Imass, or at least intending to …'

'Opportunity, Whiskeyjack. Hesitation is fatal. When you find yourself in the middle of a wide, raging river, there's only one direction to swim in. It's up to us to keep Laseen's head above water – and through her, the Malazan Empire. If Brood swings his hammer in Burn's name – we drown, all of us. Law, order, peace – civilization, all gone.'

'So, to keep Brood from doing that, we sacrifice ourselves by challenging the Crippled God. Us, one damned weary army already decimated by one of Laseen's panics.'

Okay, thank you for the comment - so it seems that they were trying to prevent Brood from using his hammer in the battle? If Brood was portrayed as ruthless demigod not giving any thoughts about lives of his soldiers and friends, I would buy this explanation instantly, but since Brood was depicted as a gloomy, but good hearted strategist (at least thats what I think of him), its kind of a dull justification to go for almost certain death in order to prevent someone doing something he wouldnt do most likely at all. Of course, he did hit Kruppe with the hammer. But the world didnt die.
And even though that whole Onearms host going rogue thing was a ruse, I am not very keen on believing Whiskeyjack or Dujek would let so many of their soldiers die just because Laseen wants some city somewhere at the end of the world. It would make much more sense with Darujhistan, since it is a very rich city, but Coral...
But thats just me having different thoughts:)

The world didn't die but Brood wasn't going all out. He was annoyed and just gave the glimpse of his + Burn's hammer powers combined. And it still erected a new mountain range. If Brood puts all his power behind a strike, all bets are off. He is fighting wars with humans because he doesn't really have much else to do anymore but if pushed to the limit, he could level a continent for all we know.

[Haplo]

 Siergiej, on 07 February 2018 - 02:31 PM, said:

 Haplo, on 06 February 2018 - 03:12 PM, said:

 ArchieVist, on 05 February 2018 - 08:18 PM, said:

Question 1: What Alternative Goose says. This passage between Whiskeyjack and Dujek in chapter 21 usually seems to get overlooked in these discussions:

Quote

'Now I'm the one who's worried,' Whiskeyjack said. 'We've been too clever by far, leaving me wondering who's manipulating whom. We're playing shadowgames with the Lord of Shadow, rattling the chains of the Crippled God, and now buying Brood more time without him even knowing it, whilst at the same time defying the T'lan Imass, or at least intending to …'

'Opportunity, Whiskeyjack. Hesitation is fatal. When you find yourself in the middle of a wide, raging river, there's only one direction to swim in. It's up to us to keep Laseen's head above water – and through her, the Malazan Empire. If Brood swings his hammer in Burn's name – we drown, all of us. Law, order, peace – civilization, all gone.'

'So, to keep Brood from doing that, we sacrifice ourselves by challenging the Crippled God. Us, one damned weary army already decimated by one of Laseen's panics.'

Okay, thank you for the comment - so it seems that they were trying to prevent Brood from using his hammer in the battle? If Brood was portrayed as ruthless demigod not giving any thoughts about lives of his soldiers and friends, I would buy this explanation instantly, but since Brood was depicted as a gloomy, but good hearted strategist (at least thats what I think of him), its kind of a dull justification to go for almost certain death in order to prevent someone doing something he wouldnt do most likely at all. Of course, he did hit Kruppe with the hammer. But the world didnt die.
And even though that whole Onearms host going rogue thing was a ruse, I am not very keen on believing Whiskeyjack or Dujek would let so many of their soldiers die just because Laseen wants some city somewhere at the end of the world. It would make much more sense with Darujhistan, since it is a very rich city, but Coral...
But thats just me having different thoughts:)

The world didn't die but Brood wasn't going all out. He was annoyed and just gave the glimpse of his + Burn's hammer powers combined. And it still erected a new mountain range. If Brood puts all his power behind a strike, all bets are off. He is fighting wars with humans because he doesn't really have much else to do anymore but if pushed to the limit, he could level a continent for all we know.

Yes, I understand, but this whole "lets smash Kruppe" thing implies that Brood can control how much power he wants to unleash (well, at least to some extent). So I was just wondering...why not just smash a little harder in front of Coral to make the whole city go boom?

Also, Alternative Gooses brilliant review of the whole action:
"The Malazans decide that cheating Broods host and sneaking off to make a surprise attack on Coral is a great idea. It will go down in history as one of the stupidest tactical moves in the history of stupid tactical moves. "

[Aptorian]

Ah yes, I had fun writing that summary.

In regards to the hammer. I don't think it's a matter of control or how hard Brood swings the hammer. I think every time he uses it, he's rolling the dice. He's basically using a doomsday device as a tool it's not meant for.

[Siergiej]

I think he does control at least to some extent how much power is unleashed through the hammer. I mean, he wouldn't risk an apocalypse to teach Kruppe a lesson. It's just that if he feels he needs to use the hammer to turn the tides of a battle, it means the situation is dire and he needs to go all out. In Coral, they were fighting against a Jaghut and K'Chain - some of the most terrifying forces in the universe.

[Gorefest]

I'm not so sure that he does. I think Kruppe riled Brood as a way to warn the Malazans and others in the host that Brood was very unpredictable and prone to uncontrolled emotional outbursts. It wouldn't even surprise me that Kruppe or some aligned diety 'managed'/dampened the effect of the blow, to demonstrate to everyone present the potential devastation but without causing a cataclysm.

[Aptorian]

I agree that Brood does have control of the hammer and the magic but I think it's like using a nuclear bomb as a hammer.

[rant]

 Haplo, on 06 February 2018 - 02:45 PM, said:

Okay, I can imagine the similarity and comparison to WW2 that you used, but still...army leaders during WW2 had to think about what they will gain, and it was no surprise to anybody (and it was clear that the influence they could have gained is of utmost importance) , but here I got an impression that Caladans army existed solely to get rid of any kind of tyranny on the continent (but simply because of personal disgust towards it), and Onearms host joined them in order to help them with the cause (they saw Pannion Domin as a lethal threat to all the life in Genabackis, so they joined forces although they were enemies before). Its just that noone from the leaders or any important characters said that Coral was worth anything, or that there was any kind of wealth worth taking. And because of that I cant imagine risking life of Bridgeburnes (and many many other soldiers) just to seize a poor, totally worthless city that is almost entirely eaten.
But, there is no logical explanation that i can think of, so I will have to live with that:)

The strategic value can be found in their opposition to the Pannion Domin, and had several valuable outcomes:

1)It was clear the Pannion Domin was incredibly expansionistic....at an incredibly fast rate (thanks to undead K'chain and the tenescowrii who literally had to conquer to eat). The Malazan Empire had spent significant time and resources conquring northern Genebackis, and the Domin represented a threat to their successes there.

Brood's alliance probably had similar reasoning, and both parties concerns were exacerbated by the fact that their forces would be completely depleted by the time they made contact with the Panions in the north (not to mention the Panion armies would have grown by the size of several cities by the time they got there).

Strategically it made more sense to challenge the Domin on it's own turf, when it's (already huge) armies were smaller than they would be in a few years time....and while the allies armies were still relatively competent.

2) Taking on the Domin gave them the chance to recast Malazans as heroes (rather than evil invaders), as well as normalize relations with Darujhistan (via the agreements of funding, and the arrival of the ambassador/ official Malazan contingent at the end of the book).

3) Cities, the land they control, and their populations are valuable in and of themselves. This is reflected in the fact that Brood is so concerned with the splitting of their forces....he is essentially letting the Malazans take control of two other cities. Coral would have made a third.

Now, this is going to counter the point I just made above, but there is an extent to which Coral itself....did not matter. All that mattered was that it was where the Seer was. The Domin was a house of cards impossibly resting on a single card--the Seer. Take him out, and the entire empire collapsed. The few rebels within it (such as the Seerdomin who helps Toc), could be bolstered to attack and question their societies remaining structures. Take him out, and (I'm assuming here) the Domin loses the Condors and the K'Chain (their most potent assets) as well as demoralize its armies.

Getting to Coral first (and winning rather than losing) would have 1) given them a city and its populace, which are valuable, and, 2) given them sole credit for taking out the Seer..excellent propaganda and PR material.

Hell (this is a sidebar), that's straight out of Malazan doctrine: take out the ruling class, and put your own in. If it hadn't been for the undead K'Chain, the loss of the Brigeburners, and much of Dujeks strikeforce in Coral...basically had everything had gone as planned...... I wonder if they wouldn't have tried to subourn the professional soldiers of the Domin, and present the Malazan take-over as a fait acompli when Brood caught up.

Finally, (and most importantly IMO), Dujek and WhiskeyJack are human, and mortal. Brood and other ascendants take the longview in ways that don't really place much weight on individual lives. We see this in their differing views of the tenescowrii following the siege of Capustan. IIRC Brood basically wants to execute like 40,000 people. Dujek and WhiskeyJack...... don't. Similarly, Brood may very well have decided that sacrificing that city and its inhabitants was worth it (if he can do that without resetting the world, I dunno) if he could get the Seer....Dujek and WhiskeyJack don't want that to happen.....because its horrifying. They view their campaign as one of liberation rather than genocide.

This post has been edited by rant: 08 February 2018 - 02:39 PM