[Nevyn]

As for me, since it was everyone's first game and they were not sure what to trust or what not to, I really only did the following things differently as a fascist than I would have as a liberal:



1) Normally I would have pushed harder to keep running back the early players (as in not taking Venge's presidency after Nom's went through ... Dolmen, Nom and Mess were a perfect triangle. But as a fascist I needed you trying other players.


2) Claiming Nom failed the gov. Normally I'd just have said I got 3 fascist, which I did.


3) With Mess as next president, I would have told him earlier that he had to pick Dolmen. I intentionally held off until he nominated Venge as it increased chances I'd be chancellor again.


4) I pushed a bit harder than normal later in the game because I needed people to push back and needed to feed paranoia.


That's really about it. The whole plan was to give actual good advice so when I made a heel turn or the deck helped (as it did in Mess' presidency), people would flip and distrust that advice.

[Nevyn]

D, on 13 March 2018 - 03:36 PM, said:

Admittedly the details are a bit hazy in memory now, but IIRC I did a fuck-ton of distancing on Nevyn, deliberately did a suspicious vote, all for the sake of setting Nevyn up to have the President's Find power so it wouldn't be used by a Liberal and could help reduce the Venge-Dolmen-Messremb VPI block and what do you do with it? You used it to double down on Cause being Hitler. What in the flying fuck?

Could've thrown some suspicion into the Dolmen-Venge-Messremb block. Could've said you wanted to double check Cause and turns out he's liberal, I guess it was just an innocent day 1 slip-up. Could've verified Tatts fascist in the hopes it would get me into a government...

Nope! Cement Cause as never ever ever possibly being Chancellor and leave DolVenMess as VPI to coast to liberal victory.

Macros can attest that I was rather upset at that moment.

It was a tough decision and I went back and forth for awhile. But remember that people were mostly split down the middle or even leaning to trusting Nom (who had had a liberal presidency).

If I call Cause a liberal, I have to pass more policies if I get on, and we STILL need someone to pass the 3rd fascist policy before it matters.

What's more, Nom was going to know I was lying. I would in effect be calling one of the 3 VPI's hitler, so they would be suspicious of me.

Basically, I decided it was easier to push people to cause than pull them. Remember, if Cause had not approved Venge-Dolmen gov, it likely would have worked. And it also could have worked if people had been appropriately suspicious of Mess.

Also, remember that Tatts and Mess were pushing me to investigate THEM. That also makes it tougher to investigate Cause and call him liberal.

But yeah, it was a hail mary.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 13 March 2018 - 04:10 PM

[Nevyn]

Tattersail_, on 13 March 2018 - 03:41 PM, said:

That Find definitely put you guys needing 6 fascist cards, there was no way he'd be Chancellor after that.

Again, think of the reverse.

If I claim I got 3 fascist (which I did), and call Cause a liberal, I am distrusted, Nom is still trusted, and the gov probably stays in Venge, Mess, Dolmen, Nom. Even if they suspected Mess later they would still have 3 libs

If I throw Nom under the bus and call Cause a liberal, Nom knows almost 100% that Cause is hitler. It would have taken a lot to go right to ever get him in as chancellor. Maybe a Cause presidency gets through, but again 3 trusted players.


You guys distrusted Cause and me. So why would you trust me saying to trust Cause? And if Drek tried to back it up, Tatts would have been onto it too, so Drek would have had to push the other way and distance.


I almost investigated Mess instead and called him fascist, which in hindsight would have worked great if he was next president, but again that would have left two libs who flat out knew the true picture.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 13 March 2018 - 03:58 PM

[D'rek]

I dunno, I think it could have worked quite well. Tatts and especially me were both already very distanced to you, and Tatts-Nom was already a pointed out possible scum pairing. It would have been quite possible to keep painting them as the scum pair. Plus Tatts was going to bound to meltdown sooner or later

At least that way we'd have a fighting chance instead of just leaving it to hoping for 4 random fasicst cards? We were left with no chance of participating in the government whatsoever, so could only be obstructionists and hope for the right random flip-ups... not a very effective hail mary imo

[Nevyn]

D, on 13 March 2018 - 04:12 PM, said:

I dunno, I think it could have worked quite well. Tatts and especially me were both already very distanced to you, and Tatts-Nom was already a pointed out possible scum pairing. It would have been quite possible to keep painting them as the scum pair. Plus Tatts was going to bound to meltdown sooner or later

At least that way we'd have a fighting chance instead of just leaving it to hoping for 4 random fasicst cards? We were left with no chance of participating in the government whatsoever, so could only be obstructionists and hope for the right random flip-ups... not a very effective hail mary imo

We didn't need 4 random fascist cards.

We needed the libs to get dealt 3 fascist in one of the 2 next missions, and then we needed to get suspicion thrown on me so they would trust Nom and Cause.

Again, it very nearly happened.

Venge put up Dolmen and the vote was 5-3 with cause as JA. If that goes 4-4, Dolmen has to make me chancellor (or nom or cause or you or tatts). I fail it, and suddenly the VPIs are suspicious of each other and Nom and Cause look good.

AND THE NEXT 3 PRESIDENTS IN THAT SCENARIO ARE TATTS, CAUSE, NOM. Most likely it gets rejected to Nom, because Tatts still under suspicion, and either Cause could have been pres and passed a policy, or Nom would have made Cause chancellor.



But plan A wasn't to get 6 fascist policies. It was to make the liberals suspect me , and in doing so trust Cause. Again, if they had been appropriately suspicious of Mess or Nom fought harder, that had a chance even if I never got on as chancellor again.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 13 March 2018 - 04:26 PM

[Vengeance]

Nyven you couldn't anticipate that as Mafia players we already operate at a level of heighten paranoia. Most of the time we can handle that... Tatts..

[Nevyn]

I wanted you paranoid. My strategy was based on it. Every time I complained about your paranoia I was trying to in fact stoke it.

With your paranoia, would you ever have believed me and made cause a chancellor if i had called him liberal? I mean, you guys didn't even believe me when I told you to trust the ones you already trusted.


There may have been a small window there due to your inexperience with SH. But what happens if I try verifying Cause with experienced players, is first they stick with the succeeders, and then if they get a fail there, they put ME on a chancellor, and if i fail it I get killed and hitler is never chancellor, and if i succeed it we likely lose anyway.

If I thought I could get you guys to trust Cause the normal way, I'd have done it the normal way. The way i did it, I had Nom trusting Cause. I just needed you guys trusting Nom.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 13 March 2018 - 04:46 PM

[Cause]

Well I do need to apologize to my team. I made a mistake early which really handicapped us. I misunderstood the rules and figured that a default No should be my standard vote if the votes were going to be secret given that failed governments favor fascists.

As for the rest here is what I was thinking:

Nevyn I think you have fallen for the oldest trap of forgetting that other players have agency too. When you called me out as a fascist I figured you were a liberal. This meant the fascist voting block was divided. I didnt trust you and I did trust Nom. I thought the whole game that you were a liberal. It also took me to near the end to realize that it was Drek who was the fascist of the Drek, Tatts pair (I honestly couldn't be sure). Since I distrusted you, anything you seemed to want I needed to oppose. Also looking at our situation I realized 6 fascist policies was gonna be near impossibility. So I tried to cast shade at everyone and gain back some trust. Thats why I voted yes to the Venge Dolmen government. I figured let a liberal policy pass and maybe start chipping away at my distrusted status. Now you are correct that you got Nom to trust me and he may even have made me his chancellor but I dont think we could have gotten the 5 votes, when you called me Hitler you also defacto made Nom untrustworthy. That government would never fly. I had no way of figuring out your plan. Hind sight is 20 20 but Id argue that if your best call was to name me hitler you should have followed that up with a 'mistake' to call suspicion on yourself. Sacrifice yourself to then make me look good and maybe get me elected chancellor.

As for the final mistake I made here is what happened. I was planning to vote yes for the Nom Tatts goverment. We still would have lost because they are both liberal as it turns out but I figured it was worth the risk to let Nom maybe sneak through a fascist policy. Maybe we could still win if we were very lucky. Macros called the vote because their were already 6 nein votes and so when my vote was counted he thought it was for the Venge messremb government. However the outcome of the game would not have been different.

[Tattersail_]

Cause had 0% chance of becoming Chancellor at any stage.

I'd have picked a 50/50 fascist between you and Nom over Cause as Chancellor.

[Vengeance]

Nevyn, on 13 March 2018 - 04:39 PM, said:

I wanted you paranoid. My strategy was based on it.

With your paranoia, would you ever have believed me and made cause a chancellor if i had called him liberal?

No. There was nothing that you could have done after his slip up that would have made him seem liberal.

Once he slipped up that was it he was fascists and I would have voted against him being involved in any government.

Town doesn't slip up the only people who slip up are scum. I locked him firmly down as a fascists after that. Then I put Drek and Tatts on semi lock down and you and Nom. Tatts actually build himself back into liberal. I never trusted you and wasn't going to let you into a government. You where too helpful. I don't trust to helpful. Nom didn't post enough to get out of the 50% and at that point I didn't need him to be a liberal. Dolman and Mess first Presidency almost locked both of them in as liberal. I was a little worried about Mess potentially being hitler. But if he was I was willing to let him win as he would have played brilliantly. Plus there was no one else I could trust. I had to trust 2 other players.

Once I had locked players into my trust I wasn't going to break it based on just one vote. Especially when I knew that the odds 80% I think of 3 fascists cards being dealt at that point.

Tatts kept harping on the Drek and Dolman connection. Which I looked at more as Drek was a fascists and so Tatts was linking that first rejected government. That was troublesome to get tatts to look around. The first rejected government was inconsequential. It was just off of the grounds that if Dolman was a fascists he would have had too much early power.

[Nevyn]

Cause, on 13 March 2018 - 04:46 PM, said:

Since I distrusted you, anything you seemed to want I needed to oppose. Also looking at our situation I realized 6 fascist policies was gonna be near impossibility. So I tried to cast shade at everyone and gain back some trust. Thats why I voted yes to the Venge Dolmen government.

I knew that it would be tricky for you to play, but the bold is the key part you forgot.


If I am liberal, then you should be trying your darndest to convince people that I am a fascist who lied about you. If you had been a framed liberal, you would NEVER approve a team I was pushing for, because you would know I was fascist and assume I was pushing hitler.

This is what I was trying to tell you. I even tried to signal you and D'rek by highlighting that all fascists should reject the teams.

By accusing you, I gave you license to reject the liberal teams I was pushing. Then when one fails, you can look good and throw me under the bus.


I know it seems counterintuitive, but when I accuse you, you need to be fighting all my suggestions for consistency. But hey, hitler is hard to play. The early vote confusion was unfortunate, but the problem wasnt so much the Nein as it was saying you voted Ja.

[Nevyn]

Vengeance, on 13 March 2018 - 04:52 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 13 March 2018 - 04:39 PM, said:

I wanted you paranoid. My strategy was based on it.

With your paranoia, would you ever have believed me and made cause a chancellor if i had called him liberal?

No. There was nothing that you could have done after his slip up that would have made him seem liberal.

Once he slipped up that was it he was fascists and I would have voted against him being involved in any government.

Town doesn't slip up the only people who slip up are scum. I locked him firmly down as a fascists after that. Then I put Drek and Tatts on semi lock down and you and Nom. Tatts actually build himself back into liberal. I never trusted you and wasn't going to let you into a government. You where too helpful. I don't trust to helpful. Nom didn't post enough to get out of the 50% and at that point I didn't need him to be a liberal. Dolman and Mess first Presidency almost locked both of them in as liberal. I was a little worried about Mess potentially being hitler. But if he was I was willing to let him win as he would have played brilliantly. Plus there was no one else I could trust. I had to trust 2 other players.

Once I had locked players into my trust I wasn't going to break it based on just one vote. Especially when I knew that the odds 80% I think of 3 fascists cards being dealt at that point.

Tatts kept harping on the Drek and Dolman connection. Which I looked at more as Drek was a fascists and so Tatts was linking that first rejected government. That was troublesome to get tatts to look around. The first rejected government was inconsequential. It was just off of the grounds that if Dolman was a fascists he would have had too much early power.

Thats pretty much what I thought, and why I took such an unconventional line.

I needed something to break the trust between you Mess and Dolmen regardless. But from there I thought it would be easier to use your suspicion than push your trust. But honestly I have been assuming we would lose since that early vote.

Hitler being called out is worst case scenario, because fascists can't defend him, and also 2 fascists can't even get to 3 policies on their own, much less 6.

8 players is a tough nut to crack at the best of times ( odd numbers are easier for fascists). And it is also tough when you start with very even distribution (1 liberal per gov) of policies. In our home game, we have actually added more fascist cards to the deck because the liberals win so often.

[Vengeance]

It was a fun game. There wasn't the pleasure of killing or lynching a rival that mafia has but it was still fun.

[Macros]

Yeah,

Liberals win.

I was quite slack running this, slowed down the game as Im hella busy at work and, as we know, quite forgetful at times.

But it seems you guys had fun, so that's a win.

Probably need to work out a simple set of state of play graphics

[D'rek]

Nevyn, on 13 March 2018 - 04:24 PM, said:

We needed the libs to get dealt 3 fascist in one of the 2 next missions, and then we needed to get suspicion thrown on me so they would trust Nom and Cause.

Again, it very nearly happened.

Venge put up Dolmen and the vote was 5-3 with cause as JA. If that goes 4-4, Dolmen has to make me chancellor (or nom or cause or you or tatts). I fail it, and suddenly the VPIs are suspicious of each other and Nom and Cause look good.

No. You fail it, and they just suspect you but still each of the 3 of them are VPI. They still never let Cause or anyone else be Chancellor. Best case scenario they let Nom or Cause be President one time, but that's not enough for fascists to win, not even close. Cause would never be Chancellor and the 3 VPIs would just go right back to passing liberal agendas as often as possible until they win.

Heck, even if Nom or Tatts were somehow the ones in the Tatts-Cause-Nom line to actually get made President and they were forced to pass a Fascist policy they'd probably have killed Cause anyways.

Edit: Oh well I'm replying late and see Venge pretty much said all the same. In any case, it was a fun game (being a silent obstructionist later on... maybe not as much) and I'm glad to have tried it out.

[Vengeance]

D, on 13 March 2018 - 05:21 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 13 March 2018 - 04:24 PM, said:

We needed the libs to get dealt 3 fascist in one of the 2 next missions, and then we needed to get suspicion thrown on me so they would trust Nom and Cause.

Again, it very nearly happened.

Venge put up Dolmen and the vote was 5-3 with cause as JA. If that goes 4-4, Dolmen has to make me chancellor (or nom or cause or you or tatts). I fail it, and suddenly the VPIs are suspicious of each other and Nom and Cause look good.

No. You fail it, and they just suspect you but still each of the 3 of them are VPI. They still never let Cause or anyone else be Chancellor. Best case scenario they let Nom or Cause be President one time, but that's not enough for fascists to win, not even close. Cause would never be Chancellor and the 3 VPIs would just go right back to passing liberal agendas as often as possible until they win.

Heck, even if Nom or Tatts were somehow the ones in the Tatts-Cause-Nom line to actually get made President and they were forced to pass a Fascist policy they'd probably have killed Cause anyways.

Edit: Oh well I'm replying late and see Venge pretty much said all the same. In any case, it was a fun game (being a silent obstructionist later on... maybe not as much) and I'm glad to have tried it out.

I almost posted that If I got 3 fascists policies I was going to kill Cause. But I refrained because I don't like to post more information then I need to.

[Nevyn]

D, on 13 March 2018 - 05:21 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 13 March 2018 - 04:24 PM, said:

We needed the libs to get dealt 3 fascist in one of the 2 next missions, and then we needed to get suspicion thrown on me so they would trust Nom and Cause.

Again, it very nearly happened.

Venge put up Dolmen and the vote was 5-3 with cause as JA. If that goes 4-4, Dolmen has to make me chancellor (or nom or cause or you or tatts). I fail it, and suddenly the VPIs are suspicious of each other and Nom and Cause look good.

No. You fail it, and they just suspect you but still each of the 3 of them are VPI. They still never let Cause or anyone else be Chancellor. Best case scenario they let Nom or Cause be President one time, but that's not enough for fascists to win, not even close. Cause would never be Chancellor and the 3 VPIs would just go right back to passing liberal agendas as often as possible until they win.

Heck, even if Nom or Tatts were somehow the ones in the Tatts-Cause-Nom line to actually get made President and they were forced to pass a Fascist policy they'd probably have killed Cause anyways.

Edit: Oh well I'm replying late and see Venge pretty much said all the same. In any case, it was a fun game (being a silent obstructionist later on... maybe not as much) and I'm glad to have tried it out.

Remember the situation at that point

It would have been 3 liberal policies, 4 fascist, Dolmen with the kill (probably of me since I'd be suspicious), and if Dolmen did kill me, next 3 presidents are Tatts, Cause, Nom.

Also remember that when Messremb was picking the special election, Nom said he would make Cause chancellor.

It was not a lock, but it had a shot. To avoid all three, either Dolmen has to leave me in the game and kill a possible liberal, or they would need to go random and possibly make the score 5-3. They may have backed Tatts, but of the 3 I think the most likely is they would have approved Nom's. And Nom was suspicious of the VPI and trusted Cause more than the three VPI.


Heck, even as it played out we had a shot. If Cause had rejected that last gov, 60% chance random policy is fascist, and its 5-4. Three auto neins for Mess's gov, all I had to do was confuse things enough that Nom was not a Ja. And then they either approve your gov, or one last 50-50 random policy.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 13 March 2018 - 06:02 PM

[Vengeance]

Nyven I am goign to sign you up for mafia. Congrats

[Nevyn]

Vengeance, on 13 March 2018 - 06:40 PM, said:

Nyven I am goign to sign you up for mafia. Congrats

Nooooooooooooo


Unless the plan is to get me in the game so you can kill me. I'll happily die a tragic death. Just no 6 weeks of slowly inevitably losing again please.

[Vengeance]

Nevyn, on 13 March 2018 - 06:42 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 13 March 2018 - 06:40 PM, said:

Nyven I am goign to sign you up for mafia. Congrats

Nooooooooooooo


Unless the plan is to get me in the game so you can kill me. I'll happily die a tragic death. Just no 6 weeks of slowly inevitably losing again please.

I think you misunderstand. An unalted Predator mafia mini game doesn't last 6 weeks. It might not even last 2 full day cycles. I have started it and finished it in the same RL day. It depends on how many people are playing. An average mafia game only last about 2 weeks. In a game where there are day kills and night kills along with lynches the body count tops out pretty quickly.