[glasseye]

Also possible that Opal became Laseen's spy in the Crimson Guard.

[Unexist]

DL2 is an awesome read, best book by ICE, I could buy 10 more novels in this saga!


I'm not a native english speaker, but isn't a little strange the yes-final costruction adopted for many different characters?
Like: "we can do it, yes?".

[Abyss]

Appears in fantasy lit often enough.

[Mentalist]

Did ICE tell us what the 3rd book's gonna be about yet?

Because I'm definitely seeing a strong possibility for the origin story of ICE's biggest "plot-baby"- the Crimson Guard.

If not in "Path of Ascendancy" (where the last book will likely be about finding the First Throne and co-opting the Napans to the Empire's cause), then a follow-up trilo.

Anyway, I finished the book yesterday at 2 AM. It's glorious. Few things:

1) just how many Demons does Kellanved end up having? After he disappears, there's apparently a demon running Smiley's, but in RotCG we very clearly see a nacht with a broom working his way through the Shadow Keep (pissing off Osseric something fierce).

Re: Hawl. We haven't seen Nok yet (he wasn't even name-dropped yet, I don't think). So either Tocaras really revises his opinion of water, or Nok joins up after the conquest of Nap (which is a bit counter to the Family's origin story, as told by Nok to Tavore in HoC). So hmmm to this.

3) The little things. Like Urko's passion for archeology at this early stage (when he's describing to Kel exactly what his rock was). Or the Kartoolian spiders (hi, tBH prologue!)

Overall, very well done by ICE. All that's left is for the yet-unnamed Braves Tooth to wander into the picture.

[Nevyn]

A Noc was mentioned in conjuction with Amaron. Different spelling. But mentioned as a Napan in Surly's group still working for their goals in Nap.

Yes, that is different from Nok's story in MBotF, but no reason he can't be already married to Hawl. And the origin story did hint at Hawl dying during conquest of Malaz, even though in the same book Hawl is alive on Drift Avalii.


As for the third book, he has not said, but the Nok version of the conquest has Kellanved using the Imass to conquer Heng before any of the rest of the continent falls and before they get a navy. And given Surly is already working on Nap, I would say the most likely arc for the next book
is Surly mainly running the conquest of Nap, K and D exploring and finding the Imass and overthrowing Heng, and the stragglers (Shimmer, Mara, Smoky, Opal?) reacting to that by joining the guard, who either take the vow near the end of the book, or later on. But the Crimson Guard already has its origin (it was around in Dancer's Lament), just no vow yet.

[Mentalist]

Nevyn, on 09 January 2018 - 03:28 PM, said:

A Noc was mentioned in conjuction with Amaron. Different spelling. But mentioned as a Napan in Surly's group still working for their goals in Nap.

Yes, that is different from Nok's story in MBotF, but no reason he can't be already married to Hawl. And the origin story did hint at Hawl dying during conquest of Malaz, even though in the same book Hawl is alive on Drift Avalii.


As for the third book, he has not said, but the Nok version of the conquest has Kellanved using the Imass to conquer Heng before any of the rest of the continent falls and before they get a navy. And given Surly is already working on Nap, I would say the most likely arc for the next book
is Surly mainly running the conquest of Nap, K and D exploring and finding the Imass and overthrowing Heng, and the stragglers (Shimmer, Mara, Smoky, Opal?) reacting to that by joining the guard, who either take the vow near the end of the book, or later on. But the Crimson Guard already has its origin (it was around in Dancer's Lament), just no vow yet.

The Deadhouse Landing Hawl was shacking up with Grinner, which seems a bit uncharacteristic- it feels that someone's say something if she was actually the wife of Nok who got left behind to work for the cause on Nap. Though mebbe they had an open relationship and everyone knew? I dunno.

And yes, I know the CriGs are already around. But without the Avowed and opposition to the Empire being their website only goal to exist, it doesn't really feel like the same CriG.

Another thing bugging me slightly is that most of the Napans haven't really been inside the Deadhouse yet- which is apparently the reason for the longevity of the Empire's leadership- if the empire was really 100+ years old. Nok's story in HoC explained this, since The Family supposedly operated out of the Deadhouse for a while before taking over Malaz Island. Here we see them making a transition from Smiley's to Mack's Hold with the Deadhouse being a recruiting ground.

And if all of a sudden the timeline is not important again... then a LOT of things get retconned.

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 09 January 2018 - 03:45 PM

[Nevyn]

Well, I mean, if you want consistency with Nok's HoC story, we are already well out of the water.

Nok had himself and Amaron and Dujek (and Hawl) hired before the other Napans. It had Nap annexed by Unta not taken over by a rival member of the royal line. It had them in the deadhouse before Mock was overthrown. It had Hawl listed as a loss in conquering Malaz, which has synchronicity, but she died in a fight over Nap, and the conquering of Malaz was really outmanouevering captains after someone else killed Mock.

The retcons have happened.

It is not so much that the timeline is not important. The whole story has changed fairly significantly.

[Abyss]

The timeline story is not important The timeline story is not important The timeline story is not important
The timeline story is not important The timeline story is not important The timeline story is not important
The timeline story is not important The timeline story is not important The timeline story is not important
The timeline story is not important The timeline story is not important The timeline story is not important

[Vengeance]

Nevyn, on 09 January 2018 - 04:04 PM, said:

Well, I mean, if you want consistency with Nok's HoC story, we are already well out of the water.

Nok had himself and Amaron and Dujek (and Hawl) hired before the other Napans. It had Nap annexed by Unta not taken over by a rival member of the royal line. It had them in the deadhouse before Mock was overthrown. It had Hawl listed as a loss in conquering Malaz, which has synchronicity, but she died in a fight over Nap, and the conquering of Malaz was really outmanouevering captains after someone else killed Mock.

The retcons have happened.

It is not so much that the timeline is not important. The whole story has changed fairly significantly.

One thing that you have to remember is that different characters events differently. Also who knows what spending significant amounts of time in an Azath does to ones memory.

[Nevyn]

Vengeance, on 09 January 2018 - 06:20 PM, said:

One thing that you have to remember is that different characters events differently. Also who knows what spending significant amounts of time in an Azath does to ones memory.

Yep, he completely forgot that he wasn't there yet , that he wasn't married, that Mock never took his ship, the order people joined, and that they didn't overthrow Mock, and what happened to Nap. Damn deadhouse with its memory alteration!


I just shrug and enjoy the version of the story ICE wants to tell. No need to rationalize it. No reason to be bound by some deep background SE threw together while he was churning out 1200 pages a year.

[Vengeance]

Nevyn, on 09 January 2018 - 07:21 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 09 January 2018 - 06:20 PM, said:

One thing that you have to remember is that different characters events differently. Also who knows what spending significant amounts of time in an Azath does to ones memory.

Yep, he completely forgot that he wasn't there yet , that he wasn't married, that Mock never took his ship, the order people joined, and that they didn't overthrow Mock, and what happened to Nap. Damn deadhouse with its memory alteration!


I just shrug and enjoy the version of the story ICE wants to tell. No need to rationalize it. No reason to be bound by some deep background SE threw together while he was churning out 1200 pages a year.

Time also makes the order of things happening and what happened shift. For instance if you ask me about events from 30 years ago. I have vauge recollection but if you asked about the specific order and who did what to whom then I would have no idea. Now the dead-house allowed from him and the others to live for 100's of years. So take the vagueness and multiply it by 100 or 1000. It can be Oh yeah I was married. We lived in here and did this. The actual specifics of things happening may be off but the general idea would be correct. This is true with anyone's memory. Not saying that is the case with writting between SE and ICE but if you look at one book having taken place hundreds of years after the other and one being a chronicling of the events while the other is a recollection then it is possible and very likely that the recollection is incorrect.

Plus it wasn't like the time on Malaz that lead to the founding was the only thing that happened to him over the years. It was just one special event among meany.

[Nevyn]

Vengeance, on 09 January 2018 - 08:05 PM, said:

Time also makes the order of things happening and what happened shift. For instance if you ask me about events from 30 years ago. I have vauge recollection but if you asked about the specific order and who did what to whom then I would have no idea. Now the dead-house allowed from him and the others to live for 100's of years. So take the vagueness and multiply it by 100 or 1000. It can be Oh yeah I was married. We lived in here and did this. The actual specifics of things happening may be off but the general idea would be correct. This is true with anyone's memory. Not saying that is the case with writting between SE and ICE but if you look at one book having taken place hundreds of years after the other and one being a chronicling of the events while the other is a recollection then it is possible and very likely that the recollection is incorrect.

Plus it wasn't like the time on Malaz that lead to the founding was the only thing that happened to him over the years. It was just one special event among meany.

Lol, he wasn't vague. He was specifically wrong.

He specifically recalls being there before even the Napans.
He specifically remembers being on a boat with Ameron and his WIFE that got arrested by Mock, having the 3 of them escape and be taken to K&D by Dujek
He specifically remembers Dancer recruiting Napans after that
He specifically remembers Dassem, Tayschrenn, and Duiker coming in after that
THEN the deadhouse
THEN taking over for Mock

That isn't blurry details. You are suggesting he blanked on the details and then made some up based on rumours he had heard. He also invents an Untan conquest of Nap, which would be a matter of historical record that Tavore or Gamet could have immediately corrected.

It is more logical to say he is lying to make himself seem more important to the tale than to say his memory was fuzzy.

[worry]

Nok is Borat. That explains both the "My Wife!" thing and the mustache.

[Vengeance]

Nevyn, on 09 January 2018 - 08:42 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 09 January 2018 - 08:05 PM, said:

Time also makes the order of things happening and what happened shift. For instance if you ask me about events from 30 years ago. I have vauge recollection but if you asked about the specific order and who did what to whom then I would have no idea. Now the dead-house allowed from him and the others to live for 100's of years. So take the vagueness and multiply it by 100 or 1000. It can be Oh yeah I was married. We lived in here and did this. The actual specifics of things happening may be off but the general idea would be correct. This is true with anyone's memory. Not saying that is the case with writting between SE and ICE but if you look at one book having taken place hundreds of years after the other and one being a chronicling of the events while the other is a recollection then it is possible and very likely that the recollection is incorrect.

Plus it wasn't like the time on Malaz that lead to the founding was the only thing that happened to him over the years. It was just one special event among meany.

Lol, he wasn't vague. He was specifically wrong.

He specifically recalls being there before even the Napans.
He specifically remembers being on a boat with Ameron and his WIFE that got arrested by Mock, having the 3 of them escape and be taken to K&D by Dujek
He specifically remembers Dancer recruiting Napans after that
He specifically remembers Dassem, Tayschrenn, and Duiker coming in after that
THEN the deadhouse
THEN taking over for Mock

That isn't blurry details. You are suggesting he blanked on the details and then made some up based on rumours he had heard. He also invents an Untan conquest of Nap, which would be a matter of historical record that Tavore or Gamet could have immediately corrected.

It is more logical to say he is lying to make himself seem more important to the tale than to say his memory was fuzzy.

Isn't that what your brain does to you as you get older. I am saying that he may think that he was being truthful but was remembering things incorrectly. I often think of myself 30 years ago as a spy being enemy lines. Which I never was. Not that any of you know about anyway.

[worry]

At the end of this whole series we're gonna get Kel manipulating all the Napan's memories to align with MBotF canon.

[Vengeance]

worry, on 09 January 2018 - 09:05 PM, said:

At the end of this whole series we're gonna get Kel manipulating all the Napan's memories to align with MBotF canon.

At the end we will find out that there is no MBOTF canon. Just a bunch of old guys in a pub trading stories.

[Nevyn]

At the end we are going to find out that the entire story has only 5 characters, a multitude of soul shifted soultaken D'ivers personalities of Quick Ben, Anomander Rake, Gothos, Draconus, and Arathan.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Maybe Nok is just a lying bastard. After all, his name is Noc in DhL, and Noc backwards is Con.

This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 09 January 2018 - 09:21 PM

[Nevyn]

Maybe the whole Path of Ascendency series is just a "Who shot JR?" alternate reality dream that Dancer had, recalled through Apsalar.

And Nok is the one who has it right.

[rant]

worry, on 09 January 2018 - 09:05 PM, said:

At the end of this whole series we're gonna get Kel manipulating all the Napan's memories to align with MBotF canon.

Or just convincing everyone to lie about everything to everyone they ever meet everywhere, no matter what.

Urko randomly meets two dudes on the coast of 7 cities while building a dinosaur.....was that really a dinosaur Urko...or just a lame old dragon?

Toc the younger wasn't actually Elder's son, but the Kel told the old guard to lie to everyone.....what a good prank on that poor orphan!