[Andorion]

So, that was a wild wild ride.

I feel as if all the promises ICE made in Dancer's Lament really came to fruition in this book. I am completely and utterly hooked into this series. Frankly I think it should be extended further, or another trilogy commissioned.

Spoiler

Kellanved We finally see his magery truly unleashed. He is far more comfortable in switching through warrens, Shadow is now a deadly weapon in his hands, and he has tamed the hounds! Also that entire episode on Otataral Island is extremely interesting. The type of transformation this caused in him is not really enlarged upon but probably played a huge part in shaping his future skill, particularly his multifaceted nature which makes him so hard to pin down. Also his crafting of Meanas and Emurlahn by which he leashed the Hounds - that is easily High Mage level capability. Also loved how randomly he chose his name!!

Dancer: I loved how unknown to himself Dancer is already a legend due to events of Deadhouse Landing. And we see how deadly he already is - normal thugs can't even begin to touch him. And the Cowl-Dancer fight was mouth watering.

Dassem: In my opinion he is still the most enigmatic. Did he learn his sword skills from an Imass? Also Dassem's comment about being "inspired" does he draw on Hood for some of his skill? Also we see how Nara ends up in the Deadhouse, but Dassem has not yet turned his back on Hood, so what is the breaking point?



Tayschrenn: It will be interesting to see how fast Tay grows out of his standoffish arrogance. He received quite a jolt. Also I foresee a showdown against Kartool. Nice little reference to his finding out about K'rul, especially given his eventual destiny.

Surly and the Napans What I find extremely interesting is that the Napans at this stage defer to Surly. When will this change and how is very interesting, because once she breaks with Kellanved, they desert her. Also Urko wrestled a Hound and was relatively unscathed! Sweet little claw/talon tidbit at the end.

Tattersail: I really wish she had met Dancer or Kellanved before she left. She didn't really do much. I hope she makes a comeback.

Apart from all of this there were a lot of very cool moments in the book

We see a lot of Nedurian who was only mentioned in GotM

Ammanas and Cotillion are mentioned by Shadow demons!

I audibly cheered when Dujek introduced "Jack"

Hounds of Shadow have killed Azathenai? Yet Rake killed two Hounds without expending a lot of effort. Which says a lot about Rake.

I love how some of the character essentials got nailed down early - Surly's fighting style for instance.

What exactly is Nightchill searching for? Also Kallor is as murderous as ever. Also cool to see the Fisher who dies in NoK.

Now a couple of thoughts about the long game -

The Old Guard is so clear now - Surly and her cabal of Napans, the embryonic mage cadre with Tay and Nedurian, the strategic group of Dassem, Dujek and Jack, and of course Dancer who so often has to protect and restrain Kellanved. More to be added of course - the Talon children of Li Heng, Toc of the Seti, the rest of the mages.

The next book is probably going to be about the conquest of Nap and the refinding of the T'lan Imass.


Also I think I sense a very long game. Did Hood manipulate Dassem into going to Malaz island so he can team up with Kellanved and Dancer? Does the shadowy alliance of Hood and other Elder Gods already exist? Do they want the retaking of Shadow?

[Gorefest]

Why do you all get it so much earlier? I preordered it from Amazon and it is not due to land on my doormat until tomorrow

[QuickTidal]

Gorefest, on 15 November 2017 - 01:23 PM, said:

Why do you all get it so much earlier? I preordered it from Amazon and it is not due to land on my doormat until tomorrow

^^This.

I'm convinced that Chapters shifted the release date to like Dec so they don't have to answer questions about it not being on shelves when it's supposed to be.

[polishgenius]

Oh goody someone finished.

Spoiler

Quote

Did he learn his sword skills from an Imass?

Nah, it was Hood possessing the corpse.
If I recall correctly from before, the breaking point has something to do with the latest Chaining, which I assume is coming up in a subsequent book.

The Old Guard thing is why I think Tattersail never met Kellanved now. If she had, she'd be in it, and she's not.



These are weird books to discuss by Malazan standards because they provide a lot more answers than questions. Not that much room for speculation. Rolicking good fun though.

One thing we're yet to see that will have to be addressed is why the Old Guard and everyone else were so loyal to and inspired by Kellanved. So far, it's been Dancer who's been commanding their attention- Kellanved's just too absent and too eccentric. As you note, the Napans all abandoned Lasseen when she took the throne- that doesn't make sense from what we've seen so far.

Also, wasn't there a point where they were operating out of the Deadhouse directly, which is what gave all the Old Guard their long lives? They seem to have moved up to Mock's Hold already so I hope that doesn't get overlooked in the manner Malazan sometimes does these things...

[Lamora]

I am feeling really positive after this book that this is no longer a trilogy. There is no way its one. Heck, we just got to the taking of Malaz island. Dancer and Kelenved don't ascend (Path to Ascendancy) until NoK. Thats about 30-100 years down the timeline depending on where exactly we are now. I am thinking this series is in for the long haul, and I couldn't be happier about it. Esslemont is truly at his best in this series.

Spoiler

I really liked how much more of Kellanved we got to see in this book. We finally get to see him open up with his Warrens and be a true badass. I also feel like conquering things is so far down the list of his priorities that I am honestly surprised he reigned as Emperor for as long as he did. Kellanved would much rather play around in Warrens or the Azath than rule. I foresee Dancer doing much of the actual ruling/babysitting in the future. It was nice to see their bond really blossom in this book as Dancer comes to see Wu as more and more a brother.

Surly is going to have to do things in the future which will be shocking, I think. Her Napan are loyal. Yet we know in the future that loyalty does shift to Kellanved. I wonder if it is just how amazing he is that causes the shift, but they weren't very impressed with him so far. Or does Surly do things that causes the break. I could also see Dassem and Dancer causing slight loyalty splits. For the longest time I thought Surly killed one of her own for practicing with Dancer until the ending. So its going to be very interesting to see what happens later on.

[Andorion]

polishgenius, on 15 November 2017 - 06:02 PM, said:

Oh goody someone finished.

Spoiler

Quote

Did he learn his sword skills from an Imass?

Nah, it was Hood possessing the corpse.
If I recall correctly from before, the breaking point has something to do with the latest Chaining, which I assume is coming up in a subsequent book.

The Old Guard thing is why I think Tattersail never met Kellanved now. If she had, she'd be in it, and she's not.



These are weird books to discuss by Malazan standards because they provide a lot more answers than questions. Not that much room for speculation. Rolicking good fun though.

One thing we're yet to see that will have to be addressed is why the Old Guard and everyone else were so loyal to and inspired by Kellanved. So far, it's been Dancer who's been commanding their attention- Kellanved's just too absent and too eccentric. As you note, the Napans all abandoned Lasseen when she took the throne- that doesn't make sense from what we've seen so far.

Also, wasn't there a point where they were operating out of the Deadhouse directly, which is what gave all the Old Guard their long lives? They seem to have moved up to Mock's Hold already so I hope that doesn't get overlooked in the manner Malazan sometimes does these things...

Spoiler

Ok I missed that Hood was directly training Dassem. This just convinces me even more that sending Dassem to Kellanved is part of the long scheme. Hood is very involved here.

Good point about the Deadhouse, I hope it is not skipped over as well.

I think the loyalty thing may shift later, I mean Kellanved was extremely convincing when he combined Emurlahn and Meanas to bind the Hounds - that kind of power display does tend to engender confidence in leadership.

Some things I forgot to mention

How cool was it that Tay was basically holding off the entire D'rek priesthood by himself? Also this issue of a corrupted priesthood will not be solved now, I bet it matures in TBH when D'rek kills everyone except Banaschar.

What if they use the Deadhouse for travel? Kell seems to prefer it that way.

[Lamora]

Does anyone know when Graymane joined the group? I thought he was part of the Old Guard, but he doesn't seem to have appeared yet? Or did I miss him somewhere?

[qcp]

Andorion, on 15 November 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

So, that was a wild wild ride.

I feel as if all the promises ICE made in Dancer's Lament really came to fruition in this book. I am completely and utterly hooked into this series. Frankly I think it should be extended further, or another trilogy commissioned.

Spoiler

Kellanved We finally see his magery truly unleashed. He is far more comfortable in switching through warrens, Shadow is now a deadly weapon in his hands, and he has tamed the hounds! Also that entire episode on Otataral Island is extremely interesting. The type of transformation this caused in him is not really enlarged upon but probably played a huge part in shaping his future skill, particularly his multifaceted nature which makes him so hard to pin down. Also his crafting of Meanas and Emurlahn by which he leashed the Hounds - that is easily High Mage level capability. Also loved how randomly he chose his name!!

Dancer: I loved how unknown to himself Dancer is already a legend due to events of Deadhouse Landing. And we see how deadly he already is - normal thugs can't even begin to touch him. And the Cowl-Dancer fight was mouth watering.

Dassem: In my opinion he is still the most enigmatic. Did he learn his sword skills from an Imass? Also Dassem's comment about being "inspired" does he draw on Hood for some of his skill? Also we see how Nara ends up in the Deadhouse, but Dassem has not yet turned his back on Hood, so what is the breaking point?



Tayschrenn: It will be interesting to see how fast Tay grows out of his standoffish arrogance. He received quite a jolt. Also I foresee a showdown against Kartool. Nice little reference to his finding out about K'rul, especially given his eventual destiny.

Surly and the Napans What I find extremely interesting is that the Napans at this stage defer to Surly. When will this change and how is very interesting, because once she breaks with Kellanved, they desert her. Also Urko wrestled a Hound and was relatively unscathed! Sweet little claw/talon tidbit at the end.

Tattersail: I really wish she had met Dancer or Kellanved before she left. She didn't really do much. I hope she makes a comeback.

Apart from all of this there were a lot of very cool moments in the book

We see a lot of Nedurian who was only mentioned in GotM

Ammanas and Cotillion are mentioned by Shadow demons!

I audibly cheered when Dujek introduced "Jack"

Hounds of Shadow have killed Azathenai? Yet Rake killed two Hounds without expending a lot of effort. Which says a lot about Rake.

I love how some of the character essentials got nailed down early - Surly's fighting style for instance.

What exactly is Nightchill searching for? Also Kallor is as murderous as ever. Also cool to see the Fisher who dies in NoK.

Now a couple of thoughts about the long game -

The Old Guard is so clear now - Surly and her cabal of Napans, the embryonic mage cadre with Tay and Nedurian, the strategic group of Dassem, Dujek and Jack, and of course Dancer who so often has to protect and restrain Kellanved. More to be added of course - the Talon children of Li Heng, Toc of the Seti, the rest of the mages.

The next book is probably going to be about the conquest of Nap and the refinding of the T'lan Imass.


Also I think I sense a very long game. Did Hood manipulate Dassem into going to Malaz island so he can team up with Kellanved and Dancer? Does the shadowy alliance of Hood and other Elder Gods already exist? Do they want the retaking of Shadow?

Spoiler

I really liked this book. Where the last one was a who's who of the Crimson Guard this was a who's who of the old guard of the Empire. I like that it was fast paced too. Great job by ICE. Couldn't have asked for much more.

Kellanved - When Tayschrenn meets him he says he thought he knew of all the great practitioners in the world and how surprised he was by Kellanved's power. So yeah, defintiely high mage power or better. Tay also comments on how much Kellanved knows about the powers at play in the world and their subordinates, which leads me think he's been at this for much longer than we know, so how old is he really.

Dancer - More of the same here really. The last book was his time to shine so to speak. I'm actually glad we got to learn more about other characters that are so central to the plot of the main series instead of just concentrating on K&D.

Sureth/Surley - Shes more of an actual person in this book. I still don't really like her though.

Tocaras - Obviously this is Toc the elder, right? I wish we'd heard more from this character.

Tattersail - Glad we get to see a younger version of her. Knowing her history with Agayla and that shes a native of the island makes her involvement in the burning/cleansing of the Mouse Quarter even more troubling.

Glad we got to see Obo too, if just for a few minutes.

Dujek and Jack- Fuck yeah!

Tayschrenn - Not how I would have envisioned the first part of his life, but his character jives with what we know of him from previous books. He's always come off as a bit of a fruitloop IMO.

Dassem - More of the same here I guess. He'll hopefully come out of his shell more in the next book.

Kallor - Still one of my favorite characters. I love that we got to see him being evil. Long live the High King.

This post has been edited by qcp: 17 November 2017 - 07:54 PM

[Gorefest]

Lamora, on 16 November 2017 - 01:40 AM, said:

Does anyone know when Graymane joined the group? I thought he was part of the Old Guard, but he doesn't seem to have appeared yet? Or did I miss him somewhere?

Greymane Old Guard? He is one of the commanders under Kellanved, but not during his early exploits. Greymane didnt rise to prominence until the Korelri invasion which is way, waaaaay later in the Malazan campaigns, if I recall correctly. So he should have no involvement in these early exploits, i dont think

[AliG2403]

Was Toc the Elder napan?

[Andorion]

qcp, on 17 November 2017 - 06:16 PM, said:

Andorion, on 15 November 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

So, that was a wild wild ride.

I feel as if all the promises ICE made in Dancer's Lament really came to fruition in this book. I am completely and utterly hooked into this series. Frankly I think it should be extended further, or another trilogy commissioned.

Spoiler

Kellanved We finally see his magery truly unleashed. He is far more comfortable in switching through warrens, Shadow is now a deadly weapon in his hands, and he has tamed the hounds! Also that entire episode on Otataral Island is extremely interesting. The type of transformation this caused in him is not really enlarged upon but probably played a huge part in shaping his future skill, particularly his multifaceted nature which makes him so hard to pin down. Also his crafting of Meanas and Emurlahn by which he leashed the Hounds - that is easily High Mage level capability. Also loved how randomly he chose his name!!

Dancer: I loved how unknown to himself Dancer is already a legend due to events of Deadhouse Landing. And we see how deadly he already is - normal thugs can't even begin to touch him. And the Cowl-Dancer fight was mouth watering.

Dassem: In my opinion he is still the most enigmatic. Did he learn his sword skills from an Imass? Also Dassem's comment about being "inspired" does he draw on Hood for some of his skill? Also we see how Nara ends up in the Deadhouse, but Dassem has not yet turned his back on Hood, so what is the breaking point?



Tayschrenn: It will be interesting to see how fast Tay grows out of his standoffish arrogance. He received quite a jolt. Also I foresee a showdown against Kartool. Nice little reference to his finding out about K'rul, especially given his eventual destiny.

Surly and the Napans What I find extremely interesting is that the Napans at this stage defer to Surly. When will this change and how is very interesting, because once she breaks with Kellanved, they desert her. Also Urko wrestled a Hound and was relatively unscathed! Sweet little claw/talon tidbit at the end.

Tattersail: I really wish she had met Dancer or Kellanved before she left. She didn't really do much. I hope she makes a comeback.

Apart from all of this there were a lot of very cool moments in the book

We see a lot of Nedurian who was only mentioned in GotM

Ammanas and Cotillion are mentioned by Shadow demons!

I audibly cheered when Dujek introduced "Jack"

Hounds of Shadow have killed Azathenai? Yet Rake killed two Hounds without expending a lot of effort. Which says a lot about Rake.

I love how some of the character essentials got nailed down early - Surly's fighting style for instance.

What exactly is Nightchill searching for? Also Kallor is as murderous as ever. Also cool to see the Fisher who dies in NoK.

Now a couple of thoughts about the long game -

The Old Guard is so clear now - Surly and her cabal of Napans, the embryonic mage cadre with Tay and Nedurian, the strategic group of Dassem, Dujek and Jack, and of course Dancer who so often has to protect and restrain Kellanved. More to be added of course - the Talon children of Li Heng, Toc of the Seti, the rest of the mages.

The next book is probably going to be about the conquest of Nap and the refinding of the T'lan Imass.


Also I think I sense a very long game. Did Hood manipulate Dassem into going to Malaz island so he can team up with Kellanved and Dancer? Does the shadowy alliance of Hood and other Elder Gods already exist? Do they want the retaking of Shadow?

Spoiler

I really liked this book. Where the last one was a who's who of the Crimson Guard this was a who's who of the old guard of the Empire. I like that it was fast paced too. Great job by ICE. Couldn't have asked for much more.

Kellanved - When Tayschrenn meets him he says he thought he knew of all the great practitioners in the world and how surprised he was by Kellanved's power. So yeah, defintiely high mage power or better. Tay also comments on how much Kellanved knows about the powers at play in the world and their subordinates, which leads me think he's been at this for much longer than we know, so how old is he really.

Dancer - More of the same here really. The last book was his time to shine so to speak. I'm actually glad we got to learn more about other characters that are so central to the plot of the main series instead of just concentrating on K&D.

Sureth/Surley - Shes more of an actual person in this book. I still don't really like her though.

Tocaras - Obviously this is Toc the elder, right? I wish we'd heard more from this character.

Tattersail - Glad we get to see a younger version of her. Knowing her history with Agayla and that shes a native of the island makes her involvement in the burning/cleansing of the Mouse Quarter even more troubling.

Glad we got to see Obo too, if just for a few minutes.

Dujek and Jack- Fuck yeah!

Tayschrenn - Not how I would have envisioned the first part of his life, but his character jives with what we know of him from previous books. He's always come off as a bit of a fruitloop IMO.

Dassem - More of the same here I guess. He'll hopefully come out of his shell more in the next book.

Kallor - Still one of my favorite characters. I love that we got to see him being evil. Long live the High King.

AliG2403, on 18 November 2017 - 12:07 PM, said:

Was Toc the Elder napan?

I really doubt that Tocaras=Toc.

Toc was associated with the Seti.

[Lamora]

Well Tocaras is always going on about how he hates the sea. I could see him basically adopting or being adopted by the Seti once he meets them. I don't think there will be another Toc coming in the future besides Tocaras.

[Shiver]

Lamora, on 18 November 2017 - 06:05 PM, said:

Well Tocaras is always going on about how he hates the sea. I could see him basically adopting or being adopted by the Seti once he meets them. I don't think there will be another Toc coming in the future besides Tocaras.

Fair enough, but neither Toc the Elder or his son were ever described as having blue skin, though, which he'd have if he were Napan.

Then again Hawl also died in this book when she should've gone on to marry Nok and later die on Drift Avalii, so maybe there's just a bit of continuity mess-up going on.

[Skywalker]

God I loved this book! May be ICE's best yet. To the point, great character moments, punchy dialogue, and SO much story!

Spoiler

I loved how all the things we knew about early history was set up in an offhand way - I mean sure, there was obvious set up for Kellanved taking the thrones of Shadow and the First Empire, mastering the hounds and Imass, and of course bringing together the posse of the Old Guard... but for me the bits that made me giggle were things like:

• how Kellanved got his names - just bonkers!
  
• when Kellanved perks up to the idea of having histories written (cues Heboric and Duiker getting jobs!)
  
• the dynamic of K&D leaving Surly to run things in the real world while they chase abstract quests
  
• the set up the corruption at the core of the D'rek cult in this. Surely the 'discoloration' Tay detects is the influence on the Crippled God on Tallow?

briliant stuff!

[Trazar]

Shiver, on 18 November 2017 - 07:33 PM, said:

Lamora, on 18 November 2017 - 06:05 PM, said:

Well Tocaras is always going on about how he hates the sea. I could see him basically adopting or being adopted by the Seti once he meets them. I don't think there will be another Toc coming in the future besides Tocaras.

Fair enough, but neither Toc the Elder or his son were ever described as having blue skin, though, which he'd have if he were Napan.

Then again Hawl also died in this book when she should've gone on to marry Nok and later die on Drift Avalii, so maybe there's just a bit of continuity mess-up going on.

The Tocaras = Toc is open to question. We have to figure he is a pretty famous member of the old guard, yet that name is not mentioned.


That leads me in....I am surprised we did not see Nok.....or Did we?

There is a quote where Grinner and Nok are mentioned specifically as Napan hero's of the old guard.

So the question becomes, maybe Nok "Who will never come on land" was a guy that "Hates the sea" or Maybe Hawl and Grinner are not as gone as we think.

[JohnO]

Spoiler

I was expecting surly to betray grinner somehow, either for real or in perception involving cowl, to both start the split from the crust boys, choss, etc and to start th conversion of grinner (described as by far their best fighter) into skinner
But then confused that both grinner and hawk end up toast. They are supposed to make it to later books!Also wasn’t opal a mage working for shimmer?

This post has been edited by JohnO: 20 November 2017 - 10:09 PM

[Giantblaze]

I don't know about you guys but I feel like the Kallor story line wasn't really needed in this book.

[nacht]

Giantblaze, on 21 November 2017 - 03:37 AM, said:

I don't know about you guys but I feel like the Kallor story line wasn't really needed in this book.

Spoiler

Elingarth and genesis of the grey swords. That was quite a reveal.
Kallor might well be the progenitor of many empires.

This post has been edited by nacht: 21 November 2017 - 03:47 AM

[qcp]

Shiver, on 18 November 2017 - 07:33 PM, said:

Lamora, on 18 November 2017 - 06:05 PM, said:

Well Tocaras is always going on about how he hates the sea. I could see him basically adopting or being adopted by the Seti once he meets them. I don't think there will be another Toc coming in the future besides Tocaras.

Fair enough, but neither Toc the Elder or his son were ever described as having blue skin, though, which he'd have if he were Napan.

Then again Hawl also died in this book when she should've gone on to marry Nok and later die on Drift Avalii, so maybe there's just a bit of continuity mess-up going on.

The book never actually says Tocaras is Napan does it, just that he's with the Napan crew? Either way he's definitely described as an archer and the name is a huuuge coincidence if he actually isn't Toc.

[Gorefest]

We do know though from RotCG that Toc was born in Bloor, which is an inland city on Quon Tali. Not on the Nap Isles. He is definitely not Seti himself, and he is famed for his archery skills which fits in with the Tocaras description, but in RotCG he is described as having a 'tanned, nut-brown scalp'. Nothing about blueish skin. Then again, I cannot remember if it is ever described whether the 'blueish' Napan skin was a dark blue, almost black, or a very light blue which might actually be overridden by brown pigmentation when out in the sun for prolonged periods. So I think there still is a distinct possibility that Tocaras indeed is Toc.