[polishgenius]

I mean, you've got a point to a point, but I think there are other reasons someone might present themselves like that, and I don't think it's very fair to speculate about any particular person unless something they've said (or things that have gone around them in the past, a la Whedon, and a fresh look at older work- also like Whedon) gives reason.

Like, per your example Wendig is a bit of an arse and I know people really hate him and might be right to, but I don't think he has anything equivalent to the Charisma Carpenter story that we know of in his locker? The closest there seems to be that sometimes comes up is that he never told Myke Cole off for his behaviour at cons, but (unlike Sam Sykes who was explicitly in the room on more than one occasion) I don't think there was ever an actual occasion brought up where Wendig was there when Myke Cole Myke Cole'd.

[QuickTidal]

 polishgenius, on 19 January 2022 - 07:11 PM, said:

Like, per your example Wendig is a bit of an arse and I know people really hate him and might be right to, but I don't think he has anything equivalent to the Charisma Carpenter story that we know of in his locker? The closest there seems to be that sometimes comes up is that he never told Myke Cole off for his behaviour at cons, but (unlike Sam Sykes who was explicitly in the room on more than one occasion) I don't think there was ever an actual occasion brought up where Wendig was there when Myke Cole Myke Cole'd.

Meh, he still strikes me as the type. If I have to accept he's JUST an asshole person and not a MeToo asshole person, so be it, I'm okay with that too.

[Mezla PigDog]

The Whedon stuff seems way over the top for me. His excuses in that article are lame af but white male geek with privileged upbringing who has a talent for making watchable tv and movies gets rich and famous and shags younger women and treats all the women he has relationships with badly? And is also a terrible people manager? How many famous and / or rich men trade their wife in for a younger model? And how many people in general are also terrible people managers? Doesn't mean they can't do their creative job anymore. Does mean they are arseholes and need an HR department saving them from being dicks. I'd still watch his movies if he is allowed to make any more.

[amphibian]

Why not watch movies from other people who are as entertaining or more without the a sexual harassment and racist abuse?

Whedon isn't going to never direct a movie or produce a show again, but I can stop putting money in his pocket, so I'm going to do that.

[Mezla PigDog]

 amphibian, on 19 January 2022 - 08:49 PM, said:

Why not watch movies from other people who are as entertaining or more without the a sexual harassment and racist abuse?

Whedon isn't going to never direct a movie or produce a show again, but I can stop putting money in his pocket, so I'm going to do that.

Is he officially nailed down as a confirmed racist?

The sexist thing - maybe it's because my formative years were in the 90s but I think people are snowflakes on this. His behaviour isn't great but I like plenty of music and creative stuff made by chaps who are probably committed misogynists. I'm possibly part of the problem because it's normalised to me but I don't want to be their friends or their girlfriend, I just want to watch their stuff or listen to their music. Ideally the industries these people operate in would have their shit together so that individuals are protected from harm in the workplace but people with ambiguous morality tend to be pretty interesting.

There's a big difference in my mind to being a total dick and being a criminal. Total dicks I can live with, there are worse things to worry about. I think I might be a bit right wing when it comes to 'cancel culture'. Grow a backbone first, then decide who needs the mute button.

[amphibian]

Michelle Trachtenburg stated that after a disturbing experience where she was sexually harrassed by Whedon while she and he were alone in a room when she was 15, an actual on-the-set rule of "Joss cannot be alone in a room with Michelle again" was instituted and stuck to. Charisma Carpenter described several examples of Joss's horrible behavior to her that involved verbal abuse calling her fat, threatening her ability to work on the show and/or the industry, and somewhat pressured her to not carry her baby to term. His ex-wife detailed enormous amounts of cheating, lying to her about so much, and the magazine piece up above shows how he's been manipulating women with power dynamics to get sex for decades.

I think Whedon put Ray Fisher and possibly others through a significant amount of racist abuse. I don't know what you mean by "nailed down as a confirmed racist". The interactions with Ray Fisher on the Justice League movie have been surprisingly public and Whedon's words + actions then and now have been enough for me to say I'm satisfied with my evaluation of him as doing stuff over several months/years with racist and power dynamic abusing intent to a black man.

At this point for me, Whedon is in the group of directors like Bryan Singer and Roman Polanski. I don't want to put money in their pockets and I'm happy just moving on without them.

[Gorefest]

I was sort of on the same page as Mezla on this, until I read a recent guardian interview with Whedon that had the paragraph:

"On the matter of sleeping with multiple employees, journalists and fans while married, Whedon said he felt “fucking terrible about them”, but felt he “had” to have sexual relationships with women, especially beautiful and young women who he felt would have ignored him before he became famous, because he would “always regret it” if he hadn’t."

Dude, seriously, no. Fuck him.

[QuickTidal]

 Gorefest, on 20 January 2022 - 09:56 AM, said:

I was sort of on the same page as Mezla on this, until I read a recent guardian interview with Whedon that had the paragraph:

"On the matter of sleeping with multiple employees, journalists and fans while married, Whedon said he felt “fucking terrible about them”, but felt he “had” to have sexual relationships with women, especially beautiful and young women who he felt would have ignored him before he became famous, because he would “always regret it” if he hadn’t."

Dude, seriously, no. Fuck him.

The guy is almost an incel who happened to succeed with women due to power. This sounds like him saying "women owe him sex because if he was not famous they would not sleep with him and how dare they...."

Holy shit what an utter and complete fuckwad.

I already didn't like him as I fully believed all the Carpenter stuff when it dropped a few years back and then I also believed Fisher too, so this is sort of final confirmation, but I never expected the man himself to confirm he's a fucking POS.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

 QuickTidal, on 20 January 2022 - 01:36 PM, said:

 Gorefest, on 20 January 2022 - 09:56 AM, said:

I was sort of on the same page as Mezla on this, until I read a recent guardian interview with Whedon that had the paragraph:

"On the matter of sleeping with multiple employees, journalists and fans while married, Whedon said he felt "fucking terrible about them", but felt he "had" to have sexual relationships with women, especially beautiful and young women who he felt would have ignored him before he became famous, because he would "always regret it" if he hadn't."

Dude, seriously, no. Fuck him.

The guy is almost an incel who happened to succeed with women due to power. This sounds like him saying "women owe him sex because if he was not famous they would not sleep with him and how dare they...."

Holy shit what an utter and complete fuckwad.

I already didn't like him as I fully believed all the Carpenter stuff when it dropped a few years back and then I also believed Fisher too, so this is sort of final confirmation, but I never expected the man himself to confirm he's a fucking POS.

Seems like he was saying he felt *he* 'had to' have sex with them, not that they 'had to' have sex with him. (Wouldn't generally defend his behavior and his statements though.)

Slightly off topic perhaps, but here's a summary of the racism charges against Whedon and his work:

Joss Whedon Denies Racism Charges by Saying Black Man Is Just a White Man's Pawn (vice.com)

[QuickTidal]

 Azath Vitr (D, on 20 January 2022 - 01:49 PM, said:

 QuickTidal, on 20 January 2022 - 01:36 PM, said:

 Gorefest, on 20 January 2022 - 09:56 AM, said:

I was sort of on the same page as Mezla on this, until I read a recent guardian interview with Whedon that had the paragraph:

"On the matter of sleeping with multiple employees, journalists and fans while married, Whedon said he felt "fucking terrible about them", but felt he "had" to have sexual relationships with women, especially beautiful and young women who he felt would have ignored him before he became famous, because he would "always regret it" if he hadn't."

Dude, seriously, no. Fuck him.

The guy is almost an incel who happened to succeed with women due to power. This sounds like him saying "women owe him sex because if he was not famous they would not sleep with him and how dare they...."

Holy shit what an utter and complete fuckwad.

I already didn't like him as I fully believed all the Carpenter stuff when it dropped a few years back and then I also believed Fisher too, so this is sort of final confirmation, but I never expected the man himself to confirm he's a fucking POS.

Seems like he was saying he felt *he* 'had to' have sex with them, not that they 'had to' have sex with him. (Wouldn't generally defend his behavior and his statements though.)

I'm not sure this is the hill to die on man.

[Maark Abbott]

Meat Loaf.

[Tsundoku]

 Maark Abbott, on 21 January 2022 - 08:44 AM, said:

Meat Loaf.

Well, he's dead, but was he a complete bastard to women?

Aside from those warbling torch songs that is.

[Aptorian]

I think Maark was just insulting Quick Tidal.

[Tsundoku]

 Aptorian, on 21 January 2022 - 12:48 PM, said:

I think Maark was just insulting Quick Tidal.

Yeah ... ok ... still not following. Oh well.

I just realised I did Meatloaf a disservice. Because "Bat Out Of Hell" is a pretty good tune ... with possibly the greatest intro to a song in the history of rock.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 21 January 2022 - 12:55 PM

[Mezla PigDog]

 Gorefest, on 20 January 2022 - 09:56 AM, said:

I was sort of on the same page as Mezla on this, until I read a recent guardian interview with Whedon that had the paragraph:

"On the matter of sleeping with multiple employees, journalists and fans while married, Whedon said he felt “fucking terrible about them”, but felt he “had” to have sexual relationships with women, especially beautiful and young women who he felt would have ignored him before he became famous, because he would “always regret it” if he hadn’t."

Dude, seriously, no. Fuck him.

But isn't this more that he's a dick than he doesn't deserve to ever work again? It's kind of incel culture from a guy who got rich and famous enough that he suddenly didn't need to be incel and didn't know what the hell to do with it so did it all. I know it's 'not all men' but a decent proportion of chaps who struggle with the ladies and then get launched onto a pedestal would act in a similar way. It's a story as old as time isn't it? It's a cliche because it's so true.

There's a line between people who need to be cancelled and people who need to have eyes rolled at, be divorced and just move on. I get the power dynamic bit but many people who worked on Buffy and Angel had the opportunity to walk away with a decent amount of money in the bank and they didn't and they kept quiet until it suited them.

I'm willing to accept I may be falling on the wrong side of the line with this one and I haven't read up on the allegations of racism. On the sexism thing though - he's a creep, not a criminal. As a woman I can vouch that there are a lot of them out there - we're all probably friends with some and either don't know or have our suspicions. Certainly he could do better but add him to the list.

I'm struggling getting fully behind a lot of crusader causes and I'm calling snowflake. There is enough truth behind the headline causes to agree with them but people jump on the bandwagon and dilute it. That's not to say things like Everyday Sexism aren't powerful - they are through showing the thousands of little things women go through but equally - grow a fucking backbone. There's a lot of middle class white ladies complaining when they could have just stood up for themselves. The urgent work needs to be done elsewhere. And sure, do all the work but we know we aren't doing all the work, so do the urgent work and quit carping.

[Mezla PigDog]

That turned into a rant. It's aimed at the world, not any individuals here 😁

[amphibian]

That whole response is just... egads.

I am a man, but I don't need behavior to be criminal before I want nothing to do with a person or an entity. I also believe that these women and men stood up for themselves and got treated shabbily by producers and studios because Whedon just got the excused behavior passes handed out to him over and over. How else would a widely known on-set rule of "Joss can't be alone in a room with this specific teenager he sexually harassed" be created?

Egads...

[Mezla PigDog]

I never liked the Dawn character, she was whiny. So maybe I'm biased.

I'm not saying I want to be Joss Whedon's friend but Harvey Weinstein he is not.

[QuickTidal]

 Mezla PigDog, on 21 January 2022 - 11:09 PM, said:

grow a fucking backbone. There's a lot of middle class white ladies complaining when they could have just stood up for themselves.

I don’t think there is a big enough font for the “yikes” this comment gave me.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m with amph, that whole, screed was bad Mez.

Standing up for one’s self against someone with Whedons clout gets you exactly in Weinstein territory….blacklisted. There’s a reason Charisma Carpenter didn’t get a lot of further starring work after Angel.

But moreover, why should women have to stand up for themselves…but Whedon can’t be asked to behave like a better human first? Like the problem isn’t the women being harassed in this scenario…it’s Whedon…but for some reason we need to “boys will be boys” him and just tell the women to grow a spine?

Fuck no.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

 amphibian, on 21 January 2022 - 11:19 PM, said:

That whole response is just... egads.

I am a man, but I don't need behavior to be criminal before I want nothing to do with a person or an entity. I also believe that these women and men stood up for themselves and got treated shabbily by producers and studios because Whedon just got the excused behavior passes handed out to him over and over. How else would a widely known on-set rule of "Joss can't be alone in a room with this specific teenager he sexually harassed" be created?

Egads...

She said it was 'not appropriate behavior' towards a 'teenager' but refused to elaborate. Did anyone specify that it was sexual harassment? Given the cruelty, mockery, and threats described by the other actors, the 'teenager' part could be referring to psychologically harmful statements---getting her too upset. Or does 'behavior' imply something beyond verbal behavior?... Apparently not:

'With regards to the claim Michelle Trachtenberg made about there being a rule on set that Whedon wasn't allowed to be alone with the young actor, "several high-placed sources" said they weren't aware of any rule. But another source with direct knowledge of the show's production claimed that there was a concerted effort to keep the two from being together "due to an improper verbal exchange between Whedon and Trachtenberg."'

https://bleedingcool...tenberg-claims/

'One person who worked closely with her on Buffy told me an informal rule did exist, though it was possible Whedon was not aware of it. [...] Whedon called her into his office for a closed-door meeting. The person does not know what happened, but recalled Trachtenberg was “shaken” afterward. An adult in Trachtenberg's circle created the rule in response.'


https://www.vulture....llegations.html

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 22 January 2022 - 02:16 AM