[Tsundoku]

Maybe this plus body cameras? I can even conceive of motion sensor technology that starts the cameras in each room of your place as soon as you get home and move through the rooms and sends the footage to "The Cloud". Or something. Add in those stickers on the front door/window like the security companies have and people will be on their best behaviour.
Unless they're off their faces on booze or drugs but that's another matter. Actually, create an app that says if they're over the limit or impaired by drugs. If one doesn't exist already.

Maybe a new market for GoPro?

http://www.news.com....96ad70064fe6d90

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 16 January 2018 - 01:24 AM

[worry]

No, the entire post was in earnest and not meant to needle anyone's nerves. Sometimes I respond to a post directly and then springboard from that to related thoughts in later paragraphs, but that aren't necessarily a direct response to the initial post, so if it seemed I was rolling you personally up in that entire thing, I'm sorry. I thought I was being clear from paragraph 2 on that I was expanding to broader (and self-inclusive) territory.

[Vengeance]

https://www.reddit.c...=reddit-android

[Vengeance]

Vengeance, on 16 January 2018 - 02:09 AM, said:

https://www.reddit.c...=reddit-android

I have talked to my younger coworkers and they don't attempt to pick anyone up in a bar. I met my wife in a bar. Now 25% of women think having a drink bought for them is harrassnent. That is insane.

[Tsundoku]

Vengeance, on 16 January 2018 - 02:09 AM, said:

https://www.reddit.c...=reddit-android

Love this from the article comments:

VJBortolot GuilfordCT 1 hour ago
In my 70's and married, I am well out of the dating game, but were I younger and unattached, I would go only on double dates, my date and myself with our lawyers.

EDIT
@Vengy

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This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 16 January 2018 - 02:32 AM

[worry]

That's an odd statistic, one I don't particularly take as gospel (though I'm sure a lot of women who spend time in bars would report at least one encounter with a man trying to buy her a drink that would be generally accepted as harassing). Anyway, Grace verbally communicated her reluctance, on top of body language cues, and Aziz persisted in pressuring her into sexual contact that she didn't want. Whether he was 'succesful' or not in getting her just far enough over the speedbump of her reluctance means less than the fact that he didn't care what she wanted. He cared about getting off, and did some full court press to get his way. Why did he want to have sex with someone who didn't want to have sex with him? Is there any other walk of life where you wouldn't label wearing someone down to do something they didn't want to coercion? Why are guys arguing their way into sexual encounters? What's healthy or even okay about that?

If you find yourself litigating your way into sex with a date/partner, maybe instead of thinking everything short of a No is a (potential) Yes, try stopping yourself from continuing to pursue it. Maybe show a little self control. Maybe don't expect it to be yours for the taking if you just try hard enough.

This post has been edited by worry: 16 January 2018 - 02:31 AM

[Tsundoku]

worry, on 16 January 2018 - 02:27 AM, said:

That's an odd statistic, one I don't particularly take as gospel (though I'm sure a lot of women who spend time in bars would report at least one encounter with a man trying to buy her a drink that would be generally accepted as harassing). Anyway, Grace verbally communicated her reluctance, on top of body language cues, and Aziz persisted in pressuring her into sexual contact that she didn't want. Whether he was 'succesful' or not in getting her just far enough over the speedbump of her reluctance means less than the fact that he didn't care what she wanted. He cared about getting off, and did some full court press to get his way. Why did he want to have sex with someone who didn't want to have sex with him? Is there any other walk of life where you wouldn't label wearing someone down to do something they didn't want to coercion? Why are guys arguing their way into sexual encounters? What's healthy or even okay about that?

If you find yourself litigating your way into sex with a date/partner, maybe instead of thinking everything short of a No is a (potential) Yes, try stopping yourself from continuing to pursue it. Maybe show a little self control. Maybe don't expect it to be yours for the taking if you just try hard enough.

Agreed. People should regard anything short of a signed and witnessed "YES" as a "NO" and cease immediately, never to ask again. Not only out of good manners, but enlightened self-interest. The old days of romance=being "persistent" (these days it's called "stalking" or "harassment") are deader than disco.

I'm in a long-term relationship these days, but were I still single I'd probably be living - shall we say - a "monastic" lifestyle. All it takes is for one person to accuse you of something even vaguely inappropriate - genuine or not - and BAM, career and life over. Best to keep to yourself and never do anything that could be even tangentially regarded as flirtatious.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 16 January 2018 - 02:53 AM

[worry]

Is that really what you got out of what I said though? Romance is dead?

What about Grace's encounter with Aziz was romantic? I think there's space for romance -- or casual sex, for that matter -- between the monastic life and wearing down a reluctant woman until she unenthusiastically blows you, and I would hope most guys do too. That isn't romance, it isn't flirting, it isn't consent, and it isn't okay.

[Tsundoku]

worry, on 16 January 2018 - 03:00 AM, said:

Is that really what you got out of what I said though? Romance is dead?

What about Grace's encounter with Aziz was romantic? I think there's space for romance -- or casual sex, for that matter -- between the monastic life and wearing down a reluctant woman until she unenthusiastically blows you, and I would hope most guys do too. That isn't romance, it isn't flirting, it isn't consent, and it isn't okay.

No dude, what I got was the old-fashioned notion of romance is dead. There is no place for what was once called "persistence" these days. Unless it's solid green lights from second #1, eject eject eject.

Hell, since even asking to buy them a drink/coffee could be considered harassment these days, better off not even doing that. Just keep your head down and avoid all human contact beyond the minimum required for work, shopping etc.

Sounds silly doesn't it? Well, that's the way things are going if this is any indication.

EDIT
The other stuff earlier in this thread is pretty straightforward (obviously we are waiting for investigations in some cases), but there's way too much grey in this one to be sure what happened or if even anything was worse than it being a crap date and him being a selfish dick. What we have is her account and his carefully worded mea culpa, which is probably smarter for him than if he attempted to introduce a different accounting of events. If there is one.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 16 January 2018 - 03:32 AM

[worry]

Hmm, I don't agree with that POV at all. What you're describing as "persistence" is a short-lived norm that succeeded daughters being sold to husbands as property. It lasted a couple generations, and now women have even more (if not nearly enough, not even close) input in shaping new, more equitable norms. That's the change. Women have more input. The "persistence" thing served its role as a step in human evolution and can die its death now. Good riddance.

[Tsundoku]

worry, on 16 January 2018 - 03:46 AM, said:

Hmm, I don't agree with that POV at all. What you're describing as "persistence" is a short-lived norm that succeeded daughters being sold to husbands as property. It lasted a couple generations, and now women have even more (if not nearly enough, not even close) input in shaping new, more equitable norms. That's the change. Women have more input. The "persistence" thing served its role as a step in human evolution and can die its death now. Good riddance.

Agreed. Although I think it lasted longer than just a couple of generations.

I believe in perfect equity/equality, where women can have just as much of the responsibility, credit and blame as men. Hell, even MORE or LESS as the situation warrants.

[worry]

That what he did is considered "grey area" is a problem. That's the point. He coerced her into sexual acts that she performed reluctantly. That's not okay, even when people considered it okay, but it's especially not okay when we begin to understand how damaging it is. We have normalized harmful behaviors. We are in the midst of dismantling that normalization, and it's hard, and there are going to be losers. Most of them deserving. Not all, perhaps, but "life is messy". We're going to be better off for it. We're not losing anything worth keeping.

[Vengeance]

worry, on 16 January 2018 - 04:02 AM, said:

That what he did is considered "grey area" is a problem. That's the point. He coerced her into sexual acts that she performed reluctantly. That's not okay, even when people considered it okay, but it's especially not okay when we begin to understand how damaging it is. We have normalized harmful behaviors. We are in the midst of dismantling that normalization, and it's hard, and there are going to be losers. Most of them deserving. Not all, perhaps, but "life is messy". We're going to be better off for it. We're not losing anything worth keeping.

But lumping this in with actual assault and rape where the victims are being forced to perform or lose their jobs or are underage undermines those women who are assaulted. L ck asked permission before he pulled his dick out. The women he did it in front of were comics trying to get ahead in his business. Harvey pushed himself on actresses who wanted to be in movies.

Azz went on a date with a girl who went to great lengths to get his attention at a party. Then perform sex acts with him. She could have stopped at any time. One is not like the others I know what you are saying but attempting to lump all interactions into the same pot will lead to undermining the whole thing.

[JPK]

I have thought for awhile now (since the Louis C.K. incident) that one of the single most helpful potential outcomes of this entire clusterfuck would be the addition of consent education to standard high-school curriculums at minimum. I'd prefer if it were introduced with the absolute earliest sexual-education courses possible as a lighter bare-basics around the time they start discussing puberty changes.

Frankly both genders need to change how they go about sex at this point. Teach boys/young boys to seek consent and accept the answer at regular intervals and at any escalation. Teach girls/women to use the power of consent and to be less afraid of being "forward" about their desires and what they are and are not willing to do.

I know that this is a complete pipedream though because so many places won't even teach students about basic safe-sex territory staples such as condoms or otger birth-control options.

[worry]

Is "actual assault" anything like "legitimate rape"? Grace was pretty clear that there was no violence, just coercion. The point isn't to equate every story, it's to say that it's all harmful, and women have a right to demand men stop harming them. We've normalized a woman telling a man "You're harming me" and his response being "No I'm not" and society's response thus being "No he's not".

Obviously, I don't like expect anyone to read every word I write, but just to be clear now, I did explicitly differentiate this situation from the acts of Weinstein. I don't think considering them both is the same as equating them though. And they don't have to be equally severe behaviors to be rooted in the same poisonous soil. Let's say for instance, I own a slave, who approaches me with wine as I'm talking to my neighbor, also a slaveowner. I don't cease the conversation, but I do wave my slave away, dismissing him offhand, as I don't want a refill. During this conversation, my neighbor mentions whipping his slave for some infraction. Is whipping a slave worse than waving one away? Sure. Are both our behaviors just as rooted in the institution of slavery, in our expectations of being obeyed, in our presumed power over this other person?

Personally, I think focusing on whether men('s careers) are being hurt, on whether men feel bad about having to back off a bit and self-reflect in how they pursue relationships or even just sex, undermines the whole thing vastly more than the diversity of stories being told by women.

Edited to say: I realize that first line might come off as snark, but I don't mean it to be.

This post has been edited by worry: 16 January 2018 - 04:44 AM

[Tsundoku]

Sage advice indeed.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 16 January 2018 - 07:26 AM

[Vengeance]

worry, on 16 January 2018 - 04:40 AM, said:

Is "actual assault" anything like "legitimate rape"? Grace was pretty clear that there was no violence, just coercion. The point isn't to equate every story, it's to say that it's all harmful, and women have a right to demand men stop harming them. We've normalized a woman telling a man "You're harming me" and his response being "No I'm not" and society's response thus being "No he's not".

Obviously, I don't like expect anyone to read every word I write, but just to be clear now, I did explicitly differentiate this situation from the acts of Weinstein. I don't think considering them both is the same as equating them though. And they don't have to be equally severe behaviors to be rooted in the same poisonous soil. Let's say for instance, I own a slave, who approaches me with wine as I'm talking to my neighbor, also a slaveowner. I don't cease the conversation, but I do wave my slave away, dismissing him offhand, as I don't want a refill. During this conversation, my neighbor mentions whipping his slave for some infraction. Is whipping a slave worse than waving one away? Sure. Are both our behaviors just as rooted in the institution of slavery, in our expectations of being obeyed, in our presumed power over this other person?

Personally, I think focusing on whether men('s careers) are being hurt, on whether men feel bad about having to back off a bit and self-reflect in how they pursue relationships or even just sex, undermines the whole thing vastly more than the diversity of stories being told by women.

Edited to say: I realize that first line might come off as snark, but I don't mean it to be.

Obviously worry you are totally correct and before any encounter a video taped consent message should be done by both parties.

Furthermore if either party at any point makes a funny face, gets a cramp, sneezes weirdly then the whole thing should be stopped and a physiatrist brought in to verify that all is well with both parties. Then another video should be make with both parties consent.


Currently there are estimated 21 mil to 49 mil people kept as modern slaves. You should consider freeing yours. Or you know be sensitive enough to not use slavery in your examples. Because that definitely under cuts anything that you have to say.

I personally find slavery extremely offensive.

[QuickTidal]

It's worth reading the actual 3000 word account on babe.net and not just the other blogs and news sites that have dissected and regurgitated the story with things missing and editorializing.

In the actual account, it seems very much like Ansari was BLINDLY tone deaf to the situation...to a degree that can't be dismissed as "Oh, he just didn't read her non-verbal cues", since after she vocally tells him how uncomfy she was a few times and in different ways...and after more than one instance of "calming down, and relaxing"....he goes after the exact same tactics again and again. I can't dismiss that.

If a date says "I'm not comfortable with doing this"....you stop. Unequivocally and for the remainder of the date. You certainly do not try "watching TV" and then blithely repeat the initial tactics you previously employed that got the interaction to stop to begin with. To me that's where this goes WELL off the rails at Ansari's actions. He should have just watched TV with her and chatted to restore her comfort with him as a date (or conversely put her in a cab if the date wasn't going how he thought it would)....he didn't because I'm sure he assumed "This girl came to my place, I'm getting laid tonight" and that thought refused to leave his head, so he kept blundering on and trying.

This isn't as cut and dried as "oh, he just didn't understand what she was laying down"....it's more that he was patently ignoring what she was doing and what she was saying....because he was trying to get off. I can't read her account of the night and NOT see that.

Now, the reality of the specifics of the night might lie somewhere in the middle...but I think I still come down on Ansari was well in the wrong and that should be noted.

[Vengeance]

QuickTidal, on 16 January 2018 - 03:23 PM, said:

It's worth reading the actual 3000 word account on babe.net and not just the other blogs and news sites that have dissected and regurgitated the story with things missing and editorializing.

In the actual account, it seems very much like Ansari was BLINDLY tone deaf to the situation...to a degree that can't be dismissed as "Oh, he just didn't read her non-verbal cues", since after she vocally tells him how uncomfy she was a few times and in different ways...and after more than one instance of "calming down, and relaxing"....he goes after the exact same tactics again and again. I can't dismiss that.

If a date says "I'm not comfortable with doing this"....you stop. Unequivocally and for the remainder of the date. You certainly do not try "watching TV" and then blithely repeat the initial tactics you previously employed that got the interaction to stop to begin with. To me that's where this goes WELL off the rails at Ansari's actions. He should have just watched TV with her and chatted to restore her comfort with him as a date (or conversely put her in a cab if the date wasn't going how he thought it would)....he didn't because I'm sure he assumed "This girl came to my place, I'm getting laid tonight" and that thought refused to leave his head, so he kept blundering on and trying.

This isn't as cut and dried as "oh, he just didn't understand what she was laying down"....it's more that he was patently ignoring what she was doing and what she was saying....because he was trying to get off. I can't read her account of the night and NOT see that.

Now, the reality of the specifics of the night might lie somewhere in the middle...but I think I still come down on Ansari was well in the wrong and that should be noted.

She also needs to step up and say no. Then get up and leave. If your home and you say hey how about a blow job and she says no. Then time goes by and you say hey how about a blow job and she does it. Yeah he is trying to get off. If she didn't want to get him off then say no and leave. It doesn't say that he pinned her to the ground and forced himself on to her. Then locked her in the bedroom and came back for round 2 at a later time.

[D'rek]

So I'm curious: what do you (any/all of you) think should happen to Ansari?

When you go on a first date with nobody-Joe who works at the factory down the road, you have some wine and dinner, you go back to his apartment, he gets touchy too fast, doesn't pick up on your cues at all, it's uncomfortable but you go along with it for a bit before leaving, etc, ... then it's "just" a shitty date. You go home, complain to your friends, text him that he's an asshole, and maybe spread some word around your social circles that he's a dickhead and not to date him.

When you go on a first date with Billionaire McPublicFigure who owns a movie studio or whatever, you have some wine and dinner, you go back to his apartment, he gets touchy too fast, doesn't pick up on your cues at all, it's uncomfortable but you go along with it for a bit before leaving, etc, ... then it's coercive sexual assault/rape. You out the experience to the media, he gets publicly lambasted, fired, blacklisted, etc.

Obviously this is something of a middle ground. So what do you think should happen here? Nothing? Total purge? If Ansari is genuinely just terrible at reading implicit cues and women's emotions, should he have the opportunity to make an effort at improving himself at that? Or, is it too late because he's already a public figure and, knowing that, he should have already made an effort to hold himself to a higher standard and always get explicit affirmative consent?