[amphibian]

I think almost everyone read that article while mentally telling her to leave. But it's not that easy and "freezing up" or going along with most of it to avoid physical or professional consequences are real things and responses. Eliza Dushku mentioned doing the going along thing as a 12 year old. That's extremely messed up and yet it's a part of our world that remains, despite the need for it to be changed.

Grace said that either Aziz didn't notice her physical responses and words or he didn't care. Given how he did say that he misread the signs, the latter is more likely.

The sequence of events don't have to line up with a crime in order to be worth talking about. Just like Mezla's post about pay inequality between men and women. Not a crime for a man to be paid more than a woman, but something is wrong when women feel like they can't ask for raises or equal pay to comparable men.

[Nevyn]

amphibian, on 14 January 2018 - 10:28 PM, said:

Grace said that either Aziz didn't notice her physical responses and words or he didn't care. Given how he did say that he misread the signs, the latter is more likely.

Um, what?

[worry]

I wonder if the "messier" situations -- to borrow the term again -- will actually help the culture more in becoming more healthy than the obvious monsters. It's easier for men to dissociate themselves from Weinstein or the predator in that horrific Dushku story than it is the Aziz story, I'd wager (and they aren't the same level, I suppose I have to say for the record, since everyone always has to say that so men don't turn bright red and explode). Like these are the kinds of scenarios that help more in day-to-day situations, like on campuses and other more common walks of life, seeing where the lines are.

[Nevyn]

worry, on 14 January 2018 - 10:41 PM, said:

I wonder if the "messier" situations -- to borrow the term again -- will actually help the culture more in becoming more healthy than the obvious monsters. It's easier for men to dissociate themselves from Weinstein or the predator in that horrific Dushku story than it is the Aziz story, I'd wager (and they aren't the same level, I suppose I have to say for the record, since everyone always has to say that so men don't turn bright red and explode). Like these are the kinds of scenarios that help more in day-to-day situations, like on campuses and other more common walks of life, seeing where the lines are.

One would hope that they help both sides. That men are more conscious of the reactions of women and more apt to back off, but that women are not only more empowered after the fact but also more confident to be assertive in the moment. Both of their interest and their lack thereof.

And of wanting raises while we're at it.

Please ladies, be rude.

[worry]

I suppose that depends on how he reacts to all this, but it's the least of my concerns.

I'm not the most eloquent person, but here's an actual writer saying a lot of what I was hoping to say above, but much smarter.

Spoiler

[amphibian]

Briar King, on 14 January 2018 - 11:37 PM, said:

Will anyone stop watching his show on Netflix providing it survives this? I never did but I know some of y’all like it a lot.

This is a fair question.

There's a bit of cultural significance bound up in Aziz for me, as someone who was born in South Asia. It was nice to see him and several other South Asian actors and comedians succeed in English language media. I loved Kumail Nanjiani's The Big Sick. I actively dislike Mindy Kaling, but like that her show went on for a while. Riz Ahmed and Kayvan Novak have been favorites of mine since Four Lions. Priyanka Chopra has chops and a dumb, yet successful show. I wish Kajol was able to make the move over ten years ago.


Aziz was/is hit and miss for me, but his parents and embrace of the hybrid culture South Asians have were wonderful. I saw the first season of Master of None and a couple episodes of the second season. I wasn't blown away - except by the parents episode and a few of the side characters. If he reacts well and apologizes, i think I would finish out the season. If he reacts abysmally to this story, I would stop watching his stuff. If more such stories come out, I'm done.

That's where I stand. I unequivocally won't watch Bright on Netflix because Max Landis, a serial sexual abuser, wrote it. This one is more ambiguous and that's part of the value in discussing it.

[Silencer]

To be honest, depending on how recent the incident is, a couple of days is more than enough. If it's a historic event that you're struggling to remember I'd allow a little longer but unless you're super confident you're not at fault the correct response is pretty simple. Especially if it's something like with Aziz where the ultimate outcome was not the kind of severe assault/rape/long term manipulation and coercion of an unwilling party that we've seen it's pretty straight forward to give an initial response that is clear and genuine in acknowledging her story and apologising for your actions (with a possible note in this case that you regret your misinterpretation of their words/actions or that you do not have as clear a memory of the situation as they do , though there are obvious potential problems depending on your wording).

Like I said, different if it's historic or you genuinely can't remember and are trying to (alcohol, etc) but even then there's a short period of time in which I consider an initial acknowledgement and statement of your position should happen within.

[Morgoth]

This case is making me feel very conflicted. It is hard to pick up non verbal cues sometimes, especially in connection with alcohol. Behaviour that seems perfectly obvious in one person's head is entirely invisible to the other, who is not in that head with that person. It's a classic issue in a relationship. One party is upset and hurt because the other does not see how bad they feel. People can know each other for years and still have these vastly different, subjective experiences of the same situation. Shit, I've had a lovely night out with a girlfriend with friends where we were all happy and enjoying ourselves, but upon returning home I discover, quite explosively, that my girlfriend was miserable every minute. Cues are not so obvious as the person giving them often believes.

I believe fully that the woman here experienced the event exactly like she says. I don't doubt her account, and it sounds awful for her. But I also can't help but wonder how this whole evening seemed from Aziz's experience. How obvious was it for him, these non-verbal cues. He did cause the worst day of this girls life, and if he didn't see it then I would think he feels awful now. If he did see it then, but decided to ignore it, then he's a bad person.

[Tsundoku]

Interesting POV on the Ansari thing:

https://www.theatlan...-ansari/550541/

The comments section gets a bit lively too. Which is so unlike every comments section, ever.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 15 January 2018 - 02:10 PM

[amphibian]

Briar King, on 15 January 2018 - 07:33 AM, said:

I can see that for sure Amp.

A general ? to all here. What would be an appropriate maximum time y’all would give before any response would lose any meaning and considered highly rehearsed(I suppose it may anyway)? I ask cause we have seen some shitty responses here but I’m kinda at a loss on for this particular light shining on case.

I got linked to a page that nicely lays out the elements of an apology: http://www.emotional...com/apology.htm

I am not good at apologizing, so I have had to learn to be better at it. This page helped.

As for how quickly, I would say a couple days would be best. Some of the apologies are coming years or even decades after the story came out though. And they are rarely a full apology in the mold of the page above.

1) accepting personal responsibility for what happened
2) showing remorse to the other person for what happened
3) explain why it happened or if it was inexcusable, say that
4) make reparations, which involves asking the other person what they want done

Dan Harmon apologized fully. It was publicly accepted by the person he hurt too. Very few others have done similar apologies.

[Nevyn]

Briar King, on 15 January 2018 - 07:33 AM, said:

I can see that for sure Amp.

A general ? to all here. What would be an appropriate maximum time y'all would give before any response would lose any meaning and considered highly rehearsed(I suppose it may anyway)? I ask cause we have seen some shitty responses here but I'm kinda at a loss on for this particular light shining on case.

Somewhat moot as the response went up before your question I think.

In September of last year, I met a woman at a party. We exchanged numbers. We texted back and forth and eventually went on a date. We went out to dinner, and afterwards we ended up engaging in sexual activity, which by all indications was completely consensual.The next day, I got a text from her saying that although “it may have seemed okay,” upon further reflection, she felt uncomfortable. It was true that everything did seem okay to me, so when I heard that it was not the case for her, I was surprised and concerned. I took her words to heart and responded privately after taking the time to process what she had said.I continue to support the movement that is happening in our culture. It is necessary and long overdue."

[Vengeance]

Tsundoku, on 15 January 2018 - 01:45 PM, said:

Interesting POV on the Ansari thing:

https://www.theatlan...-ansari/550541/

The comments section gets a bit lively too. Which is so unlike every comments section, ever.

I was just going to post that article.

[Tapper]

I struggle with the article, to be honest.
Nothing in it is untrue, and it is in and by itself sensible and sound.
I struggle to word what I find off-putting, and I think that what this article ignores, is how times have changed. More in particular, that sexual expectations are different now. MeToo started on clearcut abuse, on the old men getting what they want when they want it, from whom they want it, and how they bury you when you say no, and can keep things hidden for years and years, and keep others looking away.

The Ansari case somehow feels different, even though he's ten years older than Grace, and has status. For me, it feels like Ansari is wrong and in the wrong, but I also think that the article treats Grace unfairly by seemingly suggesting a better course of action than what she did. Maybe she should have shouted NO and ran out. I don't think it is that simple.

When we had the whole storm of hacked nude celeb selfies which we were all shocked at, here and there one could also see journalists (mostly women) ask themselves why intelligent, strong and independent women would make the pictures in the first place. The implied answer was that they not always did it because they were sexually liberated and wanting to give their boyfriend something to jerk to when far apart, but at the least somewhat also out of a sense that it was expected of them - or the fear their SO might seek sexual gratification elsewhere if they didn't provide visual stimulation.
I'm pretty sure that just about every day of the week some poor teenager is slut-shamed by her classmates for sending her then-BF a nude picture because he asked her and she didn't dare to say no, even though she knows he might share it with his friends. I am quite sure that Grace-gate is connected to this aspect of society, and less to Harvey Weinstein exposing himself and asking favors because he can make you.

In an age of easy access to porn, Tinder, Sfull frontal female nudity on Netflix (but no swinging dicks, let alone erect ones) the portrayal is that women are sexual creatures, but also still as the providers of pleasure, and less the recipients. As such, who can blame a 23 year old who grew up in that environment for perhaps thinking that oral is not such a big thing, especially if she was into the guy? Maybe she initially was hoping she'd get into the mood, but didn't?
And from Ansari's POV, maybe he thought she was okay, or would get in the mood at some point. What he did wrong, is not at the very least asking her a couple of times if she was enjoying it, giving her a chance to unequivocally say no or 'Fuck yeah, I'm great, you're great, let's screw for real'.
I mean, it wasn't a five minute feelup, there were multiple different acts, and a bathroom break in between. And he might have ended up with her saying "you know what, I don't feel like it after all, maybe next time?" I'm pretty sure that happens in most relationships, and you usually have sex the night after, instead - whereas on a date, you might not see each other again, ever - but it has to be asked.

[Vengeance]

This is wrong and should end his career.

https://www.reddit.c...=reddit-android

[Nevyn]

Vengeance, on 15 January 2018 - 03:09 PM, said:

Tsundoku, on 15 January 2018 - 01:45 PM, said:

Interesting POV on the Ansari thing:

https://www.theatlan...-ansari/550541/

The comments section gets a bit lively too. Which is so unlike every comments section, ever.

I was just going to post that article.

I think that article goes too far. Calling the allegations revenge porn and some of the characterization of the victim is just going too far.

So I get some of the thought behind the article. Generationally, a lot of the behaviour described is just hard to reconcile. And there are a number of strange tones in the accusation, from the time taken to characterize the date, to the extent of detail about the fingers in the mouth stuff, to her described outlook a long way through the seeming nightmare first date, where she still seems actually to want things to go somewhere in this relationship of one date where she has been put off by everything all night except the countertop.

But I don't like that the underlying message seems to be "shut up" or hinting she is a woman scorned and seeking revenge. I think it is reasonable for her to tell the story. I think it is also reasonable to question the decisions of both of them. I think his reaction, both in text to her, and to the story, is reasonable also. The most unreasonable stuff seem to be the social media reactions on both sides.

[Nevyn]

Tapper, on 15 January 2018 - 04:18 PM, said:

The Ansari case somehow feels different, even though he's ten years older than Grace, and has status. For me, it feels like Ansari is wrong and in the wrong, but I also think that the article treats Grace unfairly by seemingly suggesting a better course of action than what she did. Maybe she should have shouted NO and ran out. I don't think it is that simple.

While I didn't like the article, I don't think suggesting a better course of action (or questioning Grace's) ought to be out of bounds.

It is a matter of how one thinks about it. It is not about reducing his culpability, or defending his actions. Nor is it about a mandate, "this is what she should do".

But again, the larger movement seems to be about empowerment, and it doesn't make any sense to me for that to be simply after the fact. Part of empowerment as women are discussing events like this ought to be a sense of taking more ownership in the moment of saying "this is not what I want". That is not a matter of blame. It is a matter of controlling the things one can control.

[worry]

Empowerment may be a huge facet of the "larger movement" but no particular victim owes it to anyone else, or society in general, to empower them. Maybe it's just poor wording, but how is "taking more ownership in the moment" not victim blaming? I think it's pretty clear a lot of women are sick of getting "practical" advice on how to protect themselves from predatory men. There's been no shortage of it, ever. Rather, men should start taking full ownership of their manipulation, coercion, and yes predation.

If men are feeling uncomfortable, including us, all of us, not just people in the public eye, about the Ansari thing it can only be a good thing. I ask again, how is it possible he showed this woman the worst night of her life, and it didn't even occur to him that's what he was doing. He was flabbergasted to hear it, according to him. How is it possible that so many women find this behavior awful, coercive, numbing, predatory, damaging -- some just in retrospect because it's been normalized for them too, even as it does its damage -- and yet so many men are having trouble recognizing that it was non-consensual.

I didn't personally gather these (saw them in a comment section), but they all seem pertinent:

Spoiler

Sure, maybe as a result of the MeToo movement more women will feel empowered to emphatically say what they what they want in the moment, and that's generally a good thing (though, as we know, it comes with its own risks -- life and death risks, too often). But as a focus, that's still putting the onus for men's bad/awful/predatory behavior on women. The big picture here is that men need to take ownership of their behavior. Men need to figure out why this is such a 'grey area' for them. Why they can be satisfied with a disinterested, unengaged sex partner, that they've had to convince to even get that far, and it not even occur to them that it's wrong. That it was, in fact, coercion.

If that's uncomfortable, even scary, GOOD.

Because:

[Nevyn]

Neat.

[worry]

You can agree with me or not, engage or not, but please don't get all condescending again in the midst of this conversation. Genuine heartfelt request.

[Nevyn]

worry, on 15 January 2018 - 09:20 PM, said:

You can agree with me or not, engage or not, but please don't get all condescending again in the midst of this conversation. Genuine heartfelt request.

You weren't being condescending?