[polishgenius]

Now Scott Lynch and Elizabeth Bear are accused.


And older accusations against China Mieville for doing something very similar to Warren Ellis but then lawyering up and threatening the person who brought it up publicly are surfacing.

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 26 June 2020 - 06:22 AM

[Aptorian]

You know, when I originally made this thread with the tongue in cheek title of a Celebrity Deadpool, I had no idea how long this would go on and just how many people it would encompass.

Is there any end to this?

[Morgoth]

Yeah, I don't get the deal with Lawrence at all. It seems incredibly petty, to be perfectly honest. Overreacting to criticism and then apologising is not a problem, and entirely human. It is allowed for authors to not be perfect, if anything, we as a culture have reveled in the idea of the eccentric, aloof, or just downright weird writers of fiction. I find it objectionable that we as a culture now should comb through their every interaction for signs of assholery.

When that is said, clearly there should be no acceptance for those that make others feel unsafe or unwelcome. Cole, and others before him, clearly made the experience of going to a con an unpleasant one for many women, and that is not acceptable. I dunno about Wending, but if he's just a bit of an unpleasant guy in some way, arrogant or standoffish or whatever, then I think we should let that be without attacking his livelihood. There is room for those sorts of people too: Oh, that's just Chuck, he's a bit of an asshole. I'm not sure if I'm expressing this well. In my group of friends we have long since divested ourselves of those that made things unpleasant for the rest of us, but we still happily include some that can easily be described as having some serious asshole tendensies. They're still our friends, and we love them, though at times we need to step in when they take it too far.

This post has been edited by Morgoth: 26 June 2020 - 06:57 AM

[Morgoth]

polishgenius, on 26 June 2020 - 06:21 AM, said:

Now Scott Lynch and Elizabeth Bear are accused.


And older accusations against China Mieville for doing something very similar to Warren Ellis but then lawyering up and threatening the person who brought it up publicly are surfacing.

What is this exactly though? Reading it sounds like Lynch had an affair with this woman, and when Bear found out she got furious. Back and forth marriage crisis and eventually Bear manages to get Lynch to cut contact? I don't get the grooming accusations to be honest. The situation she writes sounds uncomfortable, but also rather ordinary.

[polishgenius]

Morgoth, on 26 June 2020 - 07:09 AM, said:

What is this exactly though? Reading it sounds like Lynch had an affair with this woman, and when Bear found out she got furious. Back and forth marriage crisis and eventually Bear manages to get Lynch to cut contact? I don't get the grooming accusations to be honest. The situation she writes sounds uncomfortable, but also rather ordinary.

Grooming is a pretty strong word but if someone you have influence over doesn't want a relationship but you keep pressuring them into it until they accept it, that's not okay. And if Lynch was playing it as a 'she'll accept our open marriage' and pressuring Bear to accept it that's not okay either, and neither, despite her understandable hurt, are Bear's attempts if that's true to blacklist Rowland.

Which isn't to say that Rowland isn't painting her own decisions out of the story and their response will assuredly paint a different light but misbalance of power or influence and hero worship does funny things to a brain.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Agreed - I think it's the imbalance of power in the Scott Lynch scenario (as written) that makes it disturbing. Potential vulnerability, hero worship... it doesn't excuse bad decision making completely but definitely puts up strong mitigation.

Lynch has posted on Twitter that he considers some of it heavily edited and other bits downright lies and defamation, and will "respond in more detail as soon as I can".

[polishgenius]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 26 June 2020 - 09:32 AM, said:

Agreed - I think it's the imbalance of power in the Scott Lynch scenario (as written) that makes it disturbing. Potential vulnerability, hero worship... it doesn't excuse bad decision making completely but definitely puts up strong mitigation.

Lynch has posted on Twitter that he considers some of it heavily edited and other bits downright lies and defamation, and will "respond in more detail as soon as I can".

Bear's response (still ongoing)

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 26 June 2020 - 09:47 AM

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

One of the dangers with abuse narratives is projection - where the accused will "project" on the accusor and cast all their behaviour onto them.

The problem when you have two people accusing each other of abuse is knowing which one is the victim and which one is doing the projecting. And both will invariably have people ready to be called on to state that they know them really well and they'd never do such a thing.

It is one of the many ways in which abusers re-traumatise their victims. And it is so, so hard to unpick.

[QuickTidal]

Rowland does seem to have receipts (even if she didn’t post them all) , so I would expect she has receipts of Lynch coaxing her and not the other way round?

I’m much more willing to give Rowland the benefit of the doubt here simply because of the power differential, and what would Rowland have to gain by fabricating parts of it?

Also, is it possible that Bear is unaware of the extent of what Lynch might have said to Rowland? Like Bear sounds like she really believes the home wrecker narrative, and as such maybe Lynch was hiding stuff.

I agree with PG that grooming is a strong word for what went on here...but I don’t know if there is another word that fits. This is similar to Ellis in that it was older people and a young woman in her 20’s. Grooming may not be the right word, but whatever it is, it’s squicky to me.

[QuickTidal]

Well this shit is blowing wide open..,

Here’s a list...and what do you know, there’s Wendig.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 26 June 2020 - 10:46 AM

[Aptorian]

QuickTidal, on 26 June 2020 - 10:45 AM, said:

Well this shit is blowing wide open..,

Here’s a list...and what do you know, there’s Wendig.

Who the hell just posts a list of, I assume, accusations about public figures. Then doesn't back it up with any evidence or stories "because identifiers". Then writes "more to follow"?

Like I get that the fantasy/sci-fi culture is doing summer closet cleaning but come on.

[polishgenius]

QuickTidal, on 26 June 2020 - 10:45 AM, said:

Well this shit is blowing wide open..,

Here’s a list...and what do you know, there’s Wendig.

I don't particularly like this one because while I appreciate that Ann is trying to protect people, she's grouped a wide range of very, very different behaviours (some of them are actual crimes, some are basically being an asshole) into one and not given any indication of who is guilty of what. So now you've got people running off going 'I always knew GRRM did some sex crimes' when there's absolutely no indication that he's even been accused of such.

Quote

Also, is it possible that Bear is unaware of the extent of what Lynch might have said to Rowland? Like Bear sounds like she really believes the home wrecker narrative, and as such maybe Lynch was hiding stuff.

I think it's perfectly possible. It's difficult to say which of the pair is telling the truth, what Bear knew, what she wasn't told, what she willfully pretended not to know for her marriage, and what she knows but isn't willing to publicly air because she still loves her husband, but I can't think of any combination of the two versions of events we've gotten so far that don't paint Lynch as, at the very least, an arsehole.

[QuickTidal]

polishgenius, on 26 June 2020 - 11:12 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 26 June 2020 - 10:45 AM, said:

Well this shit is blowing wide open..,

Here’s a list...and what do you know, there’s Wendig.

I don't particularly like this one because while I appreciate that Ann is trying to protect people, she's grouped a wide range of very, very different behaviours (some of them are actual crimes, some are basically being an asshole) into one and not given any indication of who is guilty of what. So now you've got people running off going 'I always knew GRRM did some sex crimes' when there's absolutely no indication that he's even been accused of such.

For Ringo and Brust it sounds like it was a fairly open secret...to the extent that Brust has been disinvited to certain cons...as for GRRM this is not the first or even the second time I've heard skeevy Con behaviour associated with him. And someone further down the thread states what she heard Wendig did/behaved.

polishgenius, on 26 June 2020 - 11:12 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 26 June 2020 - 10:45 AM, said:

Also, is it possible that Bear is unaware of the extent of what Lynch might have said to Rowland? Like Bear sounds like she really believes the home wrecker narrative, and as such maybe Lynch was hiding stuff.

I think it's perfectly possible. It's difficult to say which of the pair is telling the truth, what Bear knew, what she wasn't told, what she willfully pretended not to know for her marriage, and what she knows but isn't willing to publicly air because she still loves her husband, but I can't think of any combination of the two versions of events we've gotten so far that don't paint Lynch as, at the very least, an arsehole.

Yes, I agree. Although, I also don't think it excuses Bear trying to blacklist a young author like it sounds like she has.

Oh, and random non-associated things Iearned from all this is that Jim Butcher is a COVID-denier/Lockdown disbeliever/maybe racist?....so that's annoying to have learned.

[Morgoth]

We dont know that Bear tried to blacklist anyone though. And from her description of events, and a description she claims can be corroborated by others, this whole situation looks very different.

I think we should be careful with the pitchforks here, as pointed out above, much of this doesn't really look like abuse. Just people being people making very people-like mistakes.

edit: At least one other author, C.L. Polk, responded to Bear in support of her description of events, so there's that.

This post has been edited by Morgoth: 26 June 2020 - 12:03 PM

[QuickTidal]

Morgoth, on 26 June 2020 - 12:01 PM, said:

We dont know that Bear tried to blacklist anyone though. And from her description of events, and a description she claims can be corroborated by others, this whole situation looks very different.

I think we should be careful with the pitchforks here, as pointed out above, much of this doesn't really look like abuse. Just people being people making very people-like mistakes.

We should remember that the whole racefail thing back in like 2009 was kicked off by Bear and angry fans under her purview...and it took her like a decade to apologize for her part...so you know what? I can honestly pretty easily buy that she's been trying to blacklist Rowland.

I'm happy to wait for more info or receipts, but at the very least it sounds like Lynch was skeevy, and inappropriate...and at worst an adulterer.

And it sounds like Rowland has at least 4 people willing to corroborate? I would expect with the pushback from both Lynch and Bear, for that to occur/come out...at which point were will know more.

Anyways, it's not really pitchforks, we are just navigating all these people and what they may or may not have done.

Morgoth, on 26 June 2020 - 12:01 PM, said:

edit: At least one other author, C.L. Polk, responded to Bear in support of her description of events, so there's that.

I mean, the idea that a person won't have friends wiling to stand up for them proves nothing to me without receipts. If Bear IS holding a grudge, then 100% she would have lined up people to speak out on Rowland today. I just hope Rowland's corroborators come out too. We will see.

And to add a little personal flavour to this, the whole "wife blames the vixen home wrecker for their husband straying" is such a trope that my mother felt victim to it..by even now, 30 years after they split, calling my step-mother "That bitch". The wife in the broken relationship will absolutely pull shit on the other woman over their husband because to accept the husband is the one mainly at fault is emotionally way too hard...so they shove every bit of blame on the other woman instead.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 26 June 2020 - 12:16 PM

[QuickTidal]

Saw this on reddit. It bears noting here.

"Well it's not a crime" is a really high bar for what ought to be sanctionable behaviour. This kind of shit should not be acceptable. The overcorrections we see in the twitter mobs are always concerning to me, but if the powers that be in a given industry aren't willing to take action (which their historical inaction shows), what other choice is there for achieving positive change? It's ultimately a choice between a perhaps unfairly harsh destruction of a successful career versus an unknown number of careers smothered in the cradle.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

QuickTidal, on 26 June 2020 - 11:24 AM, said:

polishgenius, on 26 June 2020 - 11:12 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 26 June 2020 - 10:45 AM, said:

Well this shit is blowing wide open..,

Here’s a list...and what do you know, there’s Wendig.

I don't particularly like this one because while I appreciate that Ann is trying to protect people, she's grouped a wide range of very, very different behaviours (some of them are actual crimes, some are basically being an asshole) into one and not given any indication of who is guilty of what. So now you've got people running off going 'I always knew GRRM did some sex crimes' when there's absolutely no indication that he's even been accused of such.

For Ringo and Brust it sounds like it was a fairly open secret...to the extent that Brust has been disinvited to certain cons...as for GRRM this is not the first or even the second time I've heard skeevy Con behaviour associated with him. And someone further down the thread states what she heard Wendig did/behaved.

polishgenius, on 26 June 2020 - 11:12 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 26 June 2020 - 10:45 AM, said:

Also, is it possible that Bear is unaware of the extent of what Lynch might have said to Rowland? Like Bear sounds like she really believes the home wrecker narrative, and as such maybe Lynch was hiding stuff.

I think it's perfectly possible. It's difficult to say which of the pair is telling the truth, what Bear knew, what she wasn't told, what she willfully pretended not to know for her marriage, and what she knows but isn't willing to publicly air because she still loves her husband, but I can't think of any combination of the two versions of events we've gotten so far that don't paint Lynch as, at the very least, an arsehole.

Yes, I agree. Although, I also don't think it excuses Bear trying to blacklist a young author like it sounds like she has.

Oh, and random non-associated things Iearned from all this is that Jim Butcher is a COVID-denier/Lockdown disbeliever/maybe racist?....so that's annoying to have learned.

What are the accusations against Brust? Really disappointed to hear this.

[Tsundoku]

Well if any at least semi-famous person ever needed a reason to never, ever have anything to do with their fans (or colleagues it seems) either in person or over teh webz ...

It's just safer to stay home, write your books and stay the fuck away from everyone. Less susceptible to COVID etc as well.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 26 June 2020 - 12:48 PM

[Morgoth]

QuickTidal, on 26 June 2020 - 12:10 PM, said:

Morgoth, on 26 June 2020 - 12:01 PM, said:

edit: At least one other author, C.L. Polk, responded to Bear in support of her description of events, so there's that.

I mean, the idea that a person won't have friends wiling to stand up for them proves nothing to me without receipts. If Bear IS holding a grudge, then 100% she would have lined up people to speak out on Rowland today. I just hope Rowland's corroborators come out too. We will see.

And to add a little personal flavour to this, the whole "wife blames the vixen home wrecker for their husband straying" is such a trope that my mother felt victim to it..by even now, 30 years after they split, calling my step-mother "That bitch". The wife in the broken relationship will absolutely pull shit on the other woman over their husband because to accept the husband is the one mainly at fault is emotionally way too hard...so they shove every bit of blame on the other woman instead.

That seems overly conspiratorial I'd say. Bear had a whole gaggle of friends prepped and ready in case Rowland said something years after the fact? Or are you thinking she spendt the last 12 or so hours calling everyone getting them to agree on a shared narrative?

The original post from Rowland did not paint a picture of abuse to me, and that was from her own description of events. Now we have Bears side, which paints a very different picture, and which has been corroborated by three people so far from what I can see, including a former friend of Rowland.

Sure, Lynch doesn't come out of this smelling of roses. I am assuming there was an affair, and that's sad, but also entirely a private matter. Affairs happen, it is cruel and mean and rarely deserving of the public spotlight.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

@jeffvandermeer/status/1276345291738923009

Me right now

This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 26 June 2020 - 12:55 PM