[Primateus]

Briar King, on 26 June 2020 - 04:28 PM, said:

To get my post count up.

This is getting a little nuts is all I'm saying. Is it healthy?

Is it healthy to ignore a problem?

[amphibian]

This doesn't matter to you. It matters to other people. Would be good to let them/us do that without piping in to say "Thread has given me a headache.

I’m so happy I steer clear of all the squawking bullshit Twitter can unleash. Deciphering all this is obsession on a stick. I will play no part in it." Or "To get my post count up.

This is getting a little nuts is all I’m saying. Is it healthy?"

We are mostly talking about the harassment and abuse of women in creative industries across a number of years and occasionally involving people we are buying things from or peripherally connected to. That's a very important topic to me.

[polishgenius]

Also: the idea that people getting called out for harrassment means we should all be too scared to interact with anyone is a joke. It implies that you don't know how to talk to women except by harassing them which I doubt is the case.

[Cause]

Not caught up but quick thoughts based on what I have read:

Grooming is not an appropriate term for a 25 year old WOMEN. Was their a power imbalance, possibly. 25 yeas though is old enough that we can expect her to have some responsibility for he actions here. Doesn't mean Lynch wasn't a bastard but I am not sure he is a sexual predator, rather at worst he was a douchebag?

Didnt lynch suffer from depression a while back, the reason his publishing slowed down? wonder how the timeline of the two fit, destroying your marriage through an an affair could be I guess either a symptom of, or a cause for depression.

I have been there myself in relationships but my tolerance seems lower than most women. The amount of time I have heard women (my sister, friends etc) say they are over a relationship, or not interested in a guy but continue to see them out of some sort of inertia, obligation or hoping they will break it off rather than them astounds me. Even after the affair was over she says how he kept coming over even though she didnt really want to see him. Not sure what I am saying here but we tell women no means no when it comes to sex but I think women need to learn no means no when it comes to their time too. I mean this is just an anecdotal musing of mine based on observations I have seen. I had an acquaintance, friend of a friend, back in SA who rubbed me the wrong way who I tried to actively cut from my social cirlce. Now this wasnt my primary motivation for trying to spend less time with him but one thing he was guilty of was pestering women to date him. Lets go for coffee, I cant. Okay how about next week. I cant. How about next month, I cant, How about we do dinner in two months time, I cant. How about a movie than. What amazed me is this worked. i called it the battering ram approach to dating and told my female friends they were under siege and they needed to be more forceful in their rejection. They would laugh it off and tell me I was being cruel. Women eventually felt some kind of no fatigue and pity and would give him the one date thinking that would end it but of course the opposite would happen. What I found amazing is that when I would organize group events and purposefully not invite him it was my female friends who would invite him to join out of pity. I guess what I am saying is that society trains us to be polite and for people, and women especially in these situations it backfires. The power imbalance in a realtionship doesnt have to be a big author preying in a little one, it can just be an asshole taking advantage of someone elses better nature.

Edit:

Quote

Also: the idea that people getting called out for harrassment means we should all be too scared to interact with anyone is a joke. It implies that you don't know how to talk to women except by harassing them which I doubt is the case.

I just wanted to quickly give my two cents on this. I actually think this is a more tricky concept than you allow. For every woman I know who says she hates when guys hit on her at gym I know someone who met their boyfriend at gym. Same for women at work or walking on the street or going to a club.

There is no universal signal for I am open to advances or I am not. It depends on mood, charm and picking up non-verbal signals which some people are good at, some people are bad at and of course problematically some people pick up on and ignore. There is no way to know if your the 6th sleezebag who has hit on the women at the bar and she has had enough or you are the first and she is interested.

Feeling like your being harassed and actually being harassed. To the women their is no discernible difference, to the guy it can feel like she is unfairly accusing him after an innoncent interaction.

Though of course some bahviours like whistling at women on the street I would agree are never called for

This post has been edited by Cause: 26 June 2020 - 05:32 PM

[Cause]

Quote

We are mostly talking about the harassment and abuse of women in creative industries across a number of years and occasionally involving people we are buying things from or peripherally connected to. That's a very important topic to me.

This to me is tricky. I have only had it once, due to geographical problems but I love chic-fil-A. Than I found out they wont open on Sundays because they are an extremely religious business and apparent they are very anti-gay. I have a gay friend (wow how bad does this sound), I dont want to support a business that hurts my friends but does my potentially buying a burger from them again really meaningfully hurt my friend I am not sure.

Alex from the expanse is apparently in a lot of trouble. I love the expanse and I dont plan to not watch it now because of this. I like the show, whatever money he has maid he has already made and why should the jobs of the entire show suffer? Though with Kevin Spacey I understand how losing the main character kind of derailed the whole House of cards.

I understand that a lot of people find Bakkers work disgustingly offensive, Sranc disgust me too but not in a personal or visceral way and I think the books are great. I plan to keep reading.

How do we influence their behavior, when is it appropriate to boycot something and when is it a pointless symbol. I remember their was talk about boycotting Enders Game because orson Card is also very anti-gay. However boycotting the film would not have significantly hurt him in anyway.

[End of Disc One]

Cause, on 26 June 2020 - 05:20 PM, said:

Didnt lynch suffer from depression a while back, the reason his publishing slowed down? wonder how the timeline of the two fit, destroying your marriage through an an affair could be I guess either a symptom of, or a cause for depression.

He's been struggling with depression off and on for a long time. But I believe the beginning and peak as far as we know was during his previous marriage, when he had a bad World of Warcraft addiction.

[polishgenius]

More words about Rowland's past. Again it doesn't absolve either Lynch or Bear of Roland's accusations but it does make their claimed innocence and naivety coming into the Lynch relationship a bit more hard to swallow.

[Cause]

polishgenius, on 27 June 2020 - 02:46 PM, said:

More words about Rowland's past. Again it doesn't absolve either Lynch or Bear of Roland's accusations but it does make their claimed innocence and naivety coming into the Lynch relationship a bit more hard to swallow.

If this is true this is just sad, mental illness attention seeking levels of behaviour.

Its basically beat for beat the same accusation?

[QuickTidal]

If Rowland is used to and has been on polyamorous relations before, it’s not that weird though. It’s entirely possible she ended up in the same situation more than once with regards to the husband, wife, mistress situation.

And it doesn’t change the fact that Lynch used his power differential to sleep with someone 12 years younger when she was just a fan...while he was married....but somehow he seems to be escaping notice in the effort to cast this as Alex VS Elizabeth instead...

Which I gotta say is really weird that no one is taking about it when we just got done dragging Warren Ellis for pulling similar shit, just without a wife involved.

[polishgenius]

QuickTidal, on 27 June 2020 - 07:29 PM, said:

And it doesn’t change the fact that Lynch used his power differential to sleep with someone 12 years younger when she was just a fan...while he was married....but somehow he seems to be escaping notice in the effort to cast this as Alex VS Elizabeth instead...

Which I gotta say is really weird that no one is taking about it when we just got done dragging Warren Ellis for pulling similar shit, just without a wife involved.

I think we're talking about Rowland (psst QT they go by 'they') vs Bear because it's pretty unquestionable that Lynch did wrong but one of the two is, whether lying, out of mistaken belief, or not in possession of all the facts- and how much wrong Lynch did is dependent on which, if either, is telling the most truth (I seriously doubt either one is entirely right or entirely wrong).


That said, I don't think it's the same dynamic as Warren Ellis. Ellis had a pattern of picking up, fucking and dumping young women he picked up at events, deliberately manipulating women into sleeping with him and breaking off if they made friends with someone else with influence. I don't really see the age gap in this one as the issue- it's a lot, but she was 25, she was fully an adult, I know couples with similar age gaps that work fine and absolutely aren't predatory. The power/influence differential was the problem (something Lynch has acknowledged if we believe he's sincere), and that it shares with the Ellis scenario, but this was one incident where even in Rowland's account we've got no indication that he went into the relationship seeking just to pick her up, they were friends for some time before shit went sideways.

Like people are saying, if it turns out to be a pattern like Rowland alleges, then it's a real problem and a proper 'drop them both from publication contracts' issue. No sign of anyone else coming forward yet though.

Quote

It’s entirely possible she ended up in the same situation more than once with regards to the husband, wife, mistress situation.

Sure and whichever way it goes I believe they didn't meet Lynch with the intention of doing it again but the language in the Lynch post carries implications of naivety that are a bit harder to swallow if it's not the first time. More concretely the quoting of the email from Bear where she accuses Rowland of a cyclical pattern feel a bit disingenuous if they don't acknowledge Bear has at least some reason to believe it's a pattern.


Like I say, none of that absolves Lynch in any way and it doesn't at all prove Bear isn't lying or even that Rowland is, but they at the least omitted some truth.


I feel like I've spent waaaaay too much time on this this weekend.

[amphibian]

I think Lynch pulled some bad to Bear and Rowland stuff by lying to both in order to get sex and relationships from both. I also think Bear was probably a jerk while pushing Rowland away from her and eventually Lynch.

But given the eerie repetition of the write-ups for both poly relationships (and the later edit of the earlier write-up), I think Rowland was way, way more aware and enthusiastically participating than her story shows. I also strongly suspect that Rowland has crossed a ton of personal boundaries for other people because there are so many people publicly speaking about some low grade messed up stuff she's done.

So I think in that triad, everyone has been awful to each other and that there wasn't a big power imbalance for Lynch and Rowland because by her own accounts of what happened, they were well into a relationship that didn't involve any sort of "I will hook you up with literary agents or people" until one brief intro was made to an agent.

Ellis did much worse and pushed much more on his status and connections to start those certainly abusive relationships.

[QuickTidal]

Looks like Jemisin chimed in support for Rowland on this...

[polishgenius]

QuickTidal, on 28 June 2020 - 12:41 AM, said:

Looks like Jemisin chimed in support for Rowland on this...

She did but then later on she posted this.

[QuickTidal]

polishgenius, on 28 June 2020 - 01:06 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 28 June 2020 - 12:41 AM, said:

Looks like Jemisin chimed in support for Rowland on this...

She did but then later on she posted this.

Ah I didn’t see that.

[polishgenius]

Think she's having the same reaction as all of us tbh. Oh that's terrible that happened oh wait there's more oh wait it's still terrible but now from every angle fuck it I'm going to sleep.

[Malankazooie]

The investigation is producing results and the dominoes are begining to fall with today's news.

It's a matter of time before the protective walls of Buckingham Palace crumble and a predator is caught, yeah? It wouldn't be out of the question for her to sing the details of everything if it is to her benefit, yeah? Not sure how that would work though as it relates to immunity and all the legal wrangling potentially required. Plus, the crown's pockets are limitless. Probably more powerful than the Catholic church in that respect.

This post has been edited by Malankazooie: 02 July 2020 - 06:35 PM

[amphibian]

Malankazooie, on 02 July 2020 - 06:35 PM, said:

The investigation is producing results and the dominoes are begining to fall with today's news.

It's a matter of time before the protective walls of Buckingham Palace crumble and a predator is caught, yeah? It wouldn't be out of the question for her to sing the details of everything if it is to her benefit, yeah? Not sure how that would work though as it relates to immunity and all the legal wrangling potentially required. Plus, the crown's pockets are limitless. Probably more powerful than the Catholic church in that respect.

Which people are you talking about?

[QuickTidal]

As long as Maxwell makes it past the "Suicide Watch" that killed Epstein (because he didn't kill himself), then I would imagine Andrew is in deep crap.

Especially because his defence seemed to boil down to "I don't sweat"....which he said while sweating....and then revised to "I didn't used to sweat"

But yeah...this has the potential to be huge.

Again, as long as someone in the jail doesn't "suicide" Maxwell.

[Malankazooie]

The news that has been coming out about Ghislaine Maxwell since being jailed has been mental. Moved from cell to cell to throw off assassins. Forced to wear paper jail garb. No sheets provided on her jail cot. 24 hr "suicide watch." So yeah, the idea of her untimely end has been introduced. So when she "commits suicide" after some slip up, the public will have been primed for its inevitability.

[QuickTidal]

So the Warren Ellis pool has grown to over 100 people, and they have a website to share stories...

https://www.somanyofus.com/


Oh, and he is apparently STILL doing shady shit as of July 2020...so you know...fuck Warren Ellis.