[Terez]

Seduce Goose, on 08 August 2017 - 07:30 AM, said:

That seems like terrible writing. Then again, he was a horrible little shit.

It made more sense for him to be the one to do it because he's the only one stupid enough to have given the killer a traceable Valyrian steel dagger. You don't need a reason because he's an evil little shit and he does stuff like that on a whim, but the tracing of the dagger is what leads to the War of the Five Kings, so it's a very important plot point.

[Traveller]

Catelyn traced it to Kings Landing; Littlefinger said he'd lost it to Tyrion. I can't recall where it went from there but I guess Joff had lifted it as it looked nice, and gave it to the would be assassin in his clumsy attempt to kill Bran.

It's reappearance means Arya now has a usable defence against the Walkers.

[Terez]

Littlefinger claimed that Tyrion won it from him when Jaime lost to Loras at some tourney. Tyrion said that was an obvious lie because he never bets against his brother.

[End of Disc One]

It was actually Robert who was drunk and said "we kill our horses when they break a leg, but are too soft to do it with our own." Joffrey wanted to impress father so he hired the assassin before they left. That's how it was in the books at least.

[Tapper]

Primateus, on 07 August 2017 - 08:12 PM, said:

Terez, on 07 August 2017 - 01:48 PM, said:

I thought the same thing. And it looked to me like they could have won that battle with the Dothraki alone; the dragon seemed excessive.

From a purely military point of view, you may be right. But I think the whole point of bringing the dragon was to send a message. I think it points back to when Olenna told her to stop thinking like a queen and start thinking like a dragon. Or something like that.

She sent a message, and I think the message was clearly received.

IIRC, Dothraki beating Westerosi in the books is logical because Martin makes clear that most Seven Kingdoms armies consist largely of under-equiped and mostly untrained levies (which also keeps the monopoly of violence firmly with the feudal order), knights and their retinues make up a relatively small part of the armies, but do most of the killing nonetheless. The Lannister army shown the past two episodes is a completely different beast: it should have kicked Dothraki butt.

Spoiler

Boring explanation: this Lannister army looked nothing like a levy, and all the more like drilled, professional infantry used to mass combat and maneuvering in formation. It is marching in step (a clear sign of formation drills), it is uniformly equiped, marches not in a big column but in seperate formations (pointing at the presence of a command structure all the way down to NCOs), seems capable of quickly adopting a formation, even when surprised.

Infantry that can hold in line historically speaking defeats cavalry almost all the time, as horses won't charge a solid mass of men but need a gap. If there is one, herd mentality takes over for the horses and they will pour through the gap, but no gap, no charge. There's plenty of examples of spectacularly failed cavalry charges precisely for this reason: Ney and the entire French cavalry spent most of Waterloo trying to charge the British squares without getting into melee once: the horses either refused to close or chose a way around/ between squares.

Even if the Dothraki would start with arrow fire, as a result of which the line would be partially thinned/pierced, the Lannisters are equiped with large shields, wear head- and shoulder armour and could thus probably withstand multiple barrages of arrow fire with very few casualties. I know I'd bet on the spear dudes.

Here, the dragon created a huge hole in the Lannister line, basically filling the role of field artillery, and that was the only reason why cavalry could win the day.

[Traveller]

My first thoughts too; with a shield wall and polearms those horses would never have broken them. But the Dragon made a hole - once a wall is breached with cavalry they're toast.

Quite literally in this case.

[Nevyn]

Down South, on 07 August 2017 - 10:22 PM, said:

Is no one else with me that dagger is important?

I'm with Terez. It is important because it is Valyrian steel and just went to a main character.

There could also be some plot importance where Bran reveals or sees who gave it to the assassin, or Samwell recognizes it and comments on what family is meant to have owned it.

But being what it is made of, I don't see any extra importance outside of that. AFAIK, Sam's book has a record of all Valyrian steel blades.

[QuickTidal]

Upon catching up to Sunday night's epic firebath...

Ah, so Jaime doesn't got north himself...he's taken by Dany and her crew and will eventually see the White Walkers himself. Maybe even finish his "humble" training with Brienne?

At any rate, do we think it was Bronn or Dickon who saved him and will also be captured? Dickon makes the most sense. A good lad, not really down with his fathers ways...and maybe a future meet up with his brother Sam is in order? At any rate, they are going to need soldiers like him in the coming fight.

Also, Sam saving Mormont? My wife literally pumped her fist in the air. She LURVES her some Jorah.

[Malankazooie]

More theories jumping around the internet. And that's that Three Eyed Raven Bran orchestrated the assassination on his younger self to get the whole thing popping off, knowing that it would put all of the future pieces in place so as to have the best chance to defeat the white walkers.

Seems pretty goofy to me. I think fans are getting too attached to the "I see everything that has ever happened" comment.

[Terez]

QuickTidal, on 08 August 2017 - 02:11 PM, said:

Upon catching up to Sunday night's epic firebath...

Ah, so Jaime doesn't got north himself...he's taken by Dany and her crew and will eventually see the White Walkers himself. Maybe even finish his "humble" training with Brienne?

I tend to think he escapes and gets back to Cersei somehow...but we'll see.

QuickTidal, on 08 August 2017 - 02:11 PM, said:

At any rate, do we think it was Bronn or Dickon who saved him and will also be captured?

It was Bronn; I paused the fuck out of that scene to make sure. Of course, it was probably stunt men, but nevertheless it was Bronn.

[Nevyn]

Traveller, on 08 August 2017 - 01:36 PM, said:

My first thoughts too; with a shield wall and polearms those horses would never have broken them. But the Dragon made a hole - once a wall is breached with cavalry they're toast.

Quite literally in this case.

I don't know if I'd say never. There is something to be said for overwhelming numbers. And not only was that a thin line, but not only can we suppose different tactics if not dragon aided (Tyrion is there), but this is not a typical cavalry charge. Not only bowmen from horseback but people leaping from horses to attack. They could lose a lot of dothraki and still break them.

Of course, the dragon kind of made the dothraki unnecessary, and 3 of them could likely have just roasted the army before the gold got to king's landing, with no back up. And there are some strange tactical decisions to explain. For Dany, how about a full pass with the dragon before the charge, and break the lines completely? For Jamie, why exactly did you pack an anti dragon weapon, and when you get a sense of an attack from an enemy that has dragons, deploy lines but not ready the weapon? Answers to both, of course, are "because tv".


The curious thing to me (although again it is "because tv") is how dragonfire can turn men to ash if hit, but quite likely be survivable without burning if you jump to 4 feet away like Bronn did.

All in all though, I think I can enjoy the coolness factor and not sweat the realism. The show is now a runaway train of fan service and epic things towards the ending.

[QuickTidal]

Terez, on 08 August 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 08 August 2017 - 02:11 PM, said:

Upon catching up to Sunday night's epic firebath...

Ah, so Jaime doesn't got north himself...he's taken by Dany and her crew and will eventually see the White Walkers himself. Maybe even finish his "humble" training with Brienne?

I tend to think he escapes and gets back to Cersei somehow...but we'll see.

Entirely possible as well. I just think I want more for his character than "sisters boy toy"...but you may be right.

Terez, on 08 August 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 08 August 2017 - 02:11 PM, said:

At any rate, do we think it was Bronn or Dickon who saved him and will also be captured?

It was Bronn; I paused the fuck out of that scene to make sure. Of course, it was probably stunt men, but nevertheless it was Bronn.

Ah, good to know. I didn't have a chance to do any pausing.

[Nevyn]

QuickTidal, on 08 August 2017 - 02:11 PM, said:

Upon catching up to Sunday night's epic firebath...

Ah, so Jaime doesn't got north himself...he's taken by Dany and her crew and will eventually see the White Walkers himself. Maybe even finish his "humble" training with Brienne?

At any rate, do we think it was Bronn or Dickon who saved him and will also be captured? Dickon makes the most sense. A good lad, not really down with his fathers ways...and maybe a future meet up with his brother Sam is in order? At any rate, they are going to need soldiers like him in the coming fight.

Also, Sam saving Mormont? My wife literally pumped her fist in the air. She LURVES her some Jorah.

TV can do anything, but Bronn had just narrowly survived burning and was on the ground. Tackling Jamie from a charging horse would be quite a feat.

[Malankazooie]

So, one of the dominant themes this season has been reunions. So who do you think will be reunited next?

- Tyrion and Jaime?

- Bronn and Tyrion ?

- Jorah and Dany? This could be super awkward based on where Dany and Jon's courtship is.

- Arya and The Hound?

- Sam and Jon? I mean, Sam will get valuable info about the White Walkers to Jon, he has to, right? I guess he could send a Raven with what he has learned though.

- Brienne and The Hound ?

- Brienne and Tormand ?

- Blackfish and ?

- Ramsay Bolton's hounds and Nymeria's pack ?

- Jon and the Brothers of the Night's Watch ?

- The Hound and The Mountain ?

- Davos and Milisandre ? There's some unfinished business there, isn't there?

What do you guys think? Who's gonna have a happy or awkward reunion next? Enter you thoughts below. kaythxbye

[Terez]

QuickTidal, on 08 August 2017 - 03:01 PM, said:

Terez, on 08 August 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 08 August 2017 - 02:11 PM, said:

Ah, so Jaime doesn't got north himself...he's taken by Dany and her crew and will eventually see the White Walkers himself. Maybe even finish his "humble" training with Brienne?

I tend to think he escapes and gets back to Cersei somehow...but we'll see.

Entirely possible as well. I just think I want more for his character than "sisters boy toy"...but you may be right.

The valonqar prophecy wasn't given in the show, but I still tend to think it will be fulfilled, and in order for that to happen, he has to be with Cersei.

Malankazooie, on 08 August 2017 - 03:21 PM, said:

Blackfish and ?

The Blackfish died defending Riverrun.

I suspect Dany and Jorah will be next.

[Malankazooie]

Terez, on 08 August 2017 - 03:26 PM, said:

Malankazooie, on 08 August 2017 - 03:21 PM, said:

Blackfish and ?

The Blackfish died defending Riverrun.

I thought he escaped by small boat in the dark of night? Or was that in the books? Or was it a Tully brother?

You don't have to reply if you don't want to. It's not that big of a deal, really.

[Terez]

They never got that far in the books. Last we saw of Jaime, the siege of Riverrun was ongoing. He met up with Brienne, who told him Sansa was alive, and that's the end of that.

Oh, in the show, it was Brienne and Pod who escaped in a boat. The Blackfish stayed to defend Riverrun, and died in the process.

This post has been edited by Terez: 08 August 2017 - 03:49 PM

[Nevyn]

Malankazooie, on 08 August 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:

Terez, on 08 August 2017 - 03:26 PM, said:

Malankazooie, on 08 August 2017 - 03:21 PM, said:

Blackfish and ?

The Blackfish died defending Riverrun.

I thought he escaped by small boat in the dark of night? Or was that in the books? Or was it a Tully brother?

You don't have to reply if you don't want to. It's not that big of a deal, really.

In the show, he is presumed dead. Brienne escaped and he refused to accompany her, planning to die defending the castle. So it would be a bit odd if he changed his mind offscreen.

Part of the reason for all the reunions is they are closing up all these different plot threads towards a resolution. So while 'Blackfish alive' is technically possible, I'd call it wildly unlikely.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 08 August 2017 - 03:53 PM

[Malankazooie]

ah, that's right. Damn, I should have followed through with a re-watch prior to this season oh well, just not enough time. Thanks for replying.

Speaking of this season, damn, there is only 3 episodes left, is that right? Episode 2 and 3 were kind of a let down tbh. The opener and this latest episode was fire. These last 3 better be fuego as well!

[Cause]

Sorry for the inadvertent spoiler. Didn't really think that through.