[BionicBarry]

Apologies, I'm sure this has been asked before, but after doing a few random re-reads I cant figure this out.

Why doesnt Laseen ascend?

It seems a few characters had to die to ascend
She certainly has the physical abilities.. She was able to kill avowed band handed, founding the claw tactics, use of otataral instead of magic.
She led the Malazan empire for a long time. Kind of a badass even if I don't like her.
Also after her failed attempt to kill Dancer, Kellanved and Dassem it would make sense for her to explore/invest in the possibility of ascension.

Ganoes in GOTM points out that Surly taking the name Laseen is the Napan word for "Thronemaster"
Can't remember when, but I thought Dujek in MOI at one point says Surly taught Kellanved the importance of having the right people at ground level (I don't agree with anymore after Dancers Lament).

Clearly she has had a HUGE impact on the Malazan Empire and many ascendants, how'd she miss the boat?

Is this just a nod to the theme that taking the throne/power through betrayal cannot lead to further paths?

[worry]

Who said she didn't?

[Abyss]

True.
But also, ascension isnt a clear path. It can require death, but also sacrifice, belief, aspect.... Otherwise in theory every ruler and decent mage in Malazanland would be an ascedent, and while some rulers are mages and some have the worship and belief or fear of their people and some even are ascendants, they are the exception.
So Laseen... Not a mage nor ascendant but did get a power up from hanging in the deadhouse with the Family, which mayaccount for her ability to break Avowed but doesnt equal ascension any more than the Crusts. Rules more by fear than anything, so not a target of faith or belief. Didnt sacrifice anything. Died at the hands of a half demon who may qualify as an ascendant herself.
...far from a clear shot as ascension.

[Nevyn]

 BionicBarry, on 09 July 2016 - 01:45 AM, said:

Why doesnt Laseen ascend?

Ascend to what? Its not as simple as just being important and dying. And she is not a wizard, has not explored the Azath, and was not aligned with any of the high houses as far as we know.

[Coltaine -]

I'm not sure if Laseen even wanted to ascend. Not everyone is fond of the thought and it has not necessarily to be the goal of a ruler. Maybe she had some plans for the future, but her current goal was to stay Empress. And to survive .

Also, to summarize Paran's thoughts on ascension: Some people ascend, most people not.

[Puck]

I'd also doubt if she had the strength of character needed, at least to the same degree many of the other people we see ascend have. Sure, she founded the Claw, but it came after Dancer founded the Talon; sure, she ruled the Empire, but ultimately, she failed at doing that properly and was outmaneuvered; there is even some doubt as to how far she really outmaneuvered (as opposed to being set up) Kellanved and Dancer to become Empress. She has exhibited a certain lack of loyalty. Basically, while she may have had some advantages of having spent time in the Deadhouse, and was physically a force to be reconed with, and not too shabby at politics, ultimately, she was not above what could have been achieved and lacked the strength of character.

And as has already been pointed out, she may not even have wanted to ascend (granted, some characters don't want to but still do, but they have qualities Laseen lacks). An ascendant cannot rule a mortal empire, so if her goal was to be Empress, ascension would have been the opposite of that.

[Aptorian]

You are presenting this as though the path of ascendancy is some how based on a code of ethics or morals. Strength of character, manner or etiquette. Which is non-sense. That Laseen was under siege politically and struggling to maintain the empires control, is not a reflection upon her willpower or abilities alone.

All that ascendancy means is that you have surpassed the scope of ordinary mortality. You have the potential to become and be more than just a normal mortal being. This is something that is achieved through traumatic events, pressure and stress and great need.

In theory there is nothing noticeably different between a mortal and an ascendant, not before the ascendant starts pushing its boundaries. Think of Coltaine as an example. He ascended because of the amount of pressure he was under and the faith the Chain of Dogs put in him. Not because he was a nice or just man.

In theory Laseen could have been an ascendant but if she was she was not using her potential. In fact, if she was an ascendant and realised that (surely the court mages will have known) then she would have taken great strides to hide this fact, as it is known power draws power and other ascendants would have been drawn to the empire.

This post has been edited by Apt: 09 July 2016 - 01:07 PM

[Puck]

And you are assuming that I am presenting sole facts instead of just adding to what already has been said. It's a multi-layered process. I never said anything about manners or etiquette, and name one ascendant who has no strength of will. That LAseen failed at keeping a hold on the empire may have nothing to do with ascension, but is an indication of her lack of certain qualities. She was not exceptional or beyond mortal capabilities in any way, which from what I can tell is what we all pretty much agree upon as a prerequisite to ascension.

We can argue all day about whether Laseen had the potential to surpass 'ordinary mortality'. Personally, I think RotCG shows the upper cap of what she was able to do.

And again, you are misinterpreting what I said. Coltaine was not on the way to ascension because he was nice and just (which has nothing to do with strength of character - Kallor is very strong personality and would ascend if not for his curse, yet he's far from being nice), but Coltaine's strength of character and judgement did play a part in drawing people to follow him and worship him. Again, certain qualities of character do play a role in making people able to bear more pressure than those lacking thos qualities, thus allowing them to reach further than would normally be possible. That's how when faced with the same situation, some people break and others pull through. Throughout the entire story, the people who achieve this are largely not those who fight for their own gain but for other people. e.g. Coltaine who didn't do all of what he did to prove his own genius but to save thousands of people.

Laseen, on the other hand, was an opportunist. When she had the opportunity to gain power, she took it. We can talk all day about how she did it because she saw that Kellanved was a great conqueror but a bad ruler, but the manner in which she did it tells a different story. In every bit of information we get about her, there are hints of how she works to gain power. And she is even outdone in that regard by others. Furthermore, I'd argue that she was never in a situation which made it necessary for her to surpass whatever. She got caught up in political intrigue, but she had at her disposal the means to wriggle out of it, yet she failed, and then failed to inspire anyone to fight at her side. Even further, I'd argue that her being failed Napan royalty (if Nok's story in HoC can be trusted) was a big part in her motivation; when she couldn't regain her throne she went and got herself a new one.

To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with you in theory, but in the specific case of Laseen I'm just thinking that she was not exceptional enough in any area to become an ascendant, nor may she have wanted to as all she does speaks of worldly motivations.

Also, if she was an ascendant when still alive, it would've been noticed, whether she wanted it to be or not. Power draws power, and an ascendant ruling a mortal empire would've drawn others. That's why Shadowthrone hat to leave the empire behind. If anyone, with the close eye he and Cotillion were keeping on the empire, they would've noticed.

This post has been edited by Puck: 09 July 2016 - 02:28 PM

[Siergiej]

There's several paths to ascension we've seen:

• taking a place in the pantheon/deck of dragons, either willingly via thrones and machinations with Azath (Kellanved, Dancer) or unwillingly through participation in convergences (Trull)
• influence of a god or another ascendant: Rhulad, Gruntle, the Bridgeburners
• worship (Karsa)

Of course the nature of ascendancy and godhood is never fully explained, so it's not necessarily limited to these three and in some cases more than one applies (Karsa, Anomander, Icarium). But Lasseen is not actively pursuing godhood, doesn't cross paths with gods too often (even during convergences she doesn't usually play an active role), has no worshippers, and plays no role in any cult herself. So why would she ascend? It seems like proper circumstances never occured

[Abyss]

Kellanved and Dancer ascended when they faked their deaths, invaded the Deadhouse during the convergence, and took control of the warren. They gained control of shadow and related powers, but i do not think they actually became gods until later once they established the Ammanas and Rope personae and seized control of the various shadow cults. Every step they took up the ladder was calculated, and ultimately successful.

Trull never fully ascended. He filled the Knight role temporarily, but it passed or never took enough to amount to full ascension. He was aspected to shadow during the battles to hold the First Throne, probably being Tiste Edur didnt hurt, but also because a small army of Shadow's child soldiers were more or less praying for him to be powerful enough to protect them. It was enough to keep him alive against a raged out Icarium, may have even lingered when he fought Silchas, but not enough to protect him from a 'mere' knife in the back. The main point is that there are degrees of ascension and not even necesarily permanent.

The Bridgeburners are an interesting example of 'layers' of ascension. Its clear that after chasing QB through Raraku the 200 or so soldiers were all more than they started out, but not truly ascended. Fast fwd through a bunch of bloody campaigns, deaths, additions to the ranks who werent in Raraku, then massive casualties on Genabackis, Black Coral, burial in Moons Spawn, Rake's magic, Paran's blessing, the Spiritwalker song, everything that was going on in the Death warrens and Dragnipur... and at the very end we get a core group of maybe ten undead, Death aspected ascendents who are somewhat autonomous. Nothing straightforward there.

In massive contrast, Sorry was 'merely' possessed by The Rope for a year or so and essentially ended up with God-level power and skill, possibly more. No worship, no layers of power, no other influences.

[Planck]

I like to think she ascended for a couple of reasons (we just haven't seen her in whatever form she is in yet, or maybe we have ).

Near the start of the book there was that skull that said to Possum how Laseen was the sort of person that didn't die (or something to that effect).

When Trake was killed by the K'Chain Che Malle, he ascended.

If Dassem, Kellanved and Dancer can all ascend, why can't Laseen?



Finally, I think she is awesome with the way she can kill Avowed.

[Aptorian]

 Planck, on 10 July 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

I like to think she ascended for a couple of reasons (we just haven't seen her in whatever form she is in yet, or maybe we have ).

Near the start of the book there was that skull that said to Possum how Laseen was the sort of person that didn't die (or something to that effect).

When Trake was killed by the K'Chain Che Malle, he ascended.

If Dassem, Kellanved and Dancer can all ascend, why can't Laseen?

I think the issue here is that while death isn't necessarily the end for many of the characters, it is a full stop for many. Ascendants do die. Unless there is a new purpose for them or they already have a lot of power and worship, getting your physical body destroyed will be the end.

Trake was already an ascendant from the First Empire and worshipped when he died. He was merely chosen for a new role by a powerful Elder God.

Dassem never died. He was on deaths door and Hood refused his death or alternatively Dassem refused to die.

We also don't know if Kelanved and Dancer actually died. We've never seen what happened between the court room assassination attempt and when they got into shadow.

This post has been edited by Apt: 11 July 2016 - 04:54 AM

[Siergiej]

 Abyss, on 10 July 2016 - 04:08 PM, said:

Trull never fully ascended. He filled the Knight role temporarily, but it passed or never took enough to amount to full ascension. He was aspected to shadow during the battles to hold the First Throne, probably being Tiste Edur didnt hurt, but also because a small army of Shadow's child soldiers were more or less praying for him to be powerful enough to protect them. It was enough to keep him alive against a raged out Icarium, may have even lingered when he fought Silchas, but not enough to protect him from a 'mere' knife in the back. The main point is that there are degrees of ascension and not even necesarily permanent.

What makes you so sure that Trull did not 'fully' ascend? As far as I remember he took the role of Knight of Shadow in the Deck and due to what happened to him later, we don't really know if it was temporary or he just became the embodiment of this card, like Rake in the House of Darkness. But he was indeed shadow-aspected, a protector of the Throne of Shadow, and he clearly showed abilities far beyond mortality when he faced Icarium. And what makes you think that an ascendant cannot die from being stabbed in the back? Being an ascendant does not protect you from anything. When Heboric brings Fener to Wu, it's stated clearly that he is now vulnerable to dying. And he's a god, not just an ascendant. Then in Memories of Ice Quick Ben threatens Hood to tear him out of his warren and the leverage is exactly the same: he'd be vulnerable and susceptible to, ironically, death.

The Crippled God spoiler:

Spoiler

It's not that uncommon for gods to die from being stabbed in the back

And as far as I agree there are 'layers' of ascension, like in case of Gesler and Stormy who are described somewhere to be on their path to ascending, I do not recall a case of ascendancy not being permanent.

This post has been edited by Siergiej: 11 July 2016 - 10:13 AM

[Nevyn]

 Planck, on 10 July 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

I like to think she ascended for a couple of reasons (we just haven't seen her in whatever form she is in yet, or maybe we have ).

Near the start of the book there was that skull that said to Possum how Laseen was the sort of person that didn't die (or something to that effect).

When Trake was killed by the K'Chain Che Malle, he ascended.

If Dassem, Kellanved and Dancer can all ascend, why can't Laseen?



Finally, I think she is awesome with the way she can kill Avowed.

[Gorefest]

 Siergiej, on 10 July 2016 - 01:35 PM, said:

Of course the nature of ascendancy and godhood is never fully explained, so it's not necessarily limited to these three and in some cases more than one applies (Karsa, Anomander, Icarium). But Lasseen is not actively pursuing godhood, doesn't cross paths with gods too often (even during convergences she doesn't usually play an active role), has no worshippers, and plays no role in any cult herself. So why would she ascend? It seems like proper circumstances never occured

Well, Baudin never did or had any of those things, and he became Knight of Death. Probably the only true answer is that we simply don't know; there is no clear path(s) to ascendancy, there is no clear description in any of the books so far what ascendancy actually means, and there is no clear indication or suggestion from RotCG or any of the other novels whether Laseen did or did not ascend. She dies, that's all we know. The rest is speculation. Maybe we will see her again in the Koblakai trilogy, who knows. Until then, it's all speculation.

[Abyss]

 Siergiej, on 11 July 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

 Abyss, on 10 July 2016 - 04:08 PM, said:

Trull never fully ascended. He filled the Knight role temporarily, but it passed or never took enough to amount to full ascension. He was aspected to shadow during the battles to hold the First Throne, probably being Tiste Edur didnt hurt, but also because a small army of Shadow's child soldiers were more or less praying for him to be powerful enough to protect them. It was enough to keep him alive against a raged out Icarium, may have even lingered when he fought Silchas, but not enough to protect him from a 'mere' knife in the back. The main point is that there are degrees of ascension and not even necesarily permanent.

What makes you so sure that Trull did not 'fully' ascend? As far as I remember he took the role of Knight of Shadow in the Deck

Not exactly. More like he was taken.

Quote

... a protector of the Throne of Shadow,

Nope. First Throne. To the extent that he was protecting anything Shadow, it was the kids of the Company and Minala.

Quote

and he clearly showed abilities far beyond mortality when he faced Icarium

.

Agreed, and again against Clip and Silchas.

Quote

And what makes you think that an ascendant cannot die from being stabbed in the back? ... I do not recall a case of ascendancy not being permanent.

As you point out, all kinds of gods and ascendants die a variety of ways - not disagreeing with you on that.

On the not permanent front, tough call. While Dassem is continually referred to as Knight or Champion of Death, if he were truly still aspected to Death he likely could have killed Hood whenever he wanted to, altho it's entirely possible that Hood did something to weaken or sever the link, or Das didn't truly want to kill him. I can't think offhand of an instance where ascension is clearly reversed, but aspects come and go - Toc, Heboric, Karsa all come to mind - so it's possible, but I agree unclear, whether Trull was still aspected to Shadow when he died

LATER BOOK SPOILER BY INFERENCE

Spoiler

And there's actually a later book point that suggests he wasn't.

.

[Gorefest]

 Abyss, on 11 July 2016 - 02:27 PM, said:

I can't think offhand of an instance where ascension is clearly reversed

Spoiler

Hedge, maybe? I know he is a Bridgeburner, but after having been dead and being Mason of Death and all, he doesn't seem to have much actual Ascendency flavour to him when he gets resurrected. Fidler won't really be an Ascendant until he dies, so maybe Hedge reverted to a 'normal' mortal as well for the time being upon resurrection?

I guess once you have been touched by great powers you never really lose the taint, but ascendants can diminish in power or switch flavour over time.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 11 July 2016 - 03:22 PM

[Abyss]

We're also trudging heavily in the confusion between being under the influence of a 'force', identified with a card in a Deck reading, and actually filling a permanent role in the pantheon.

With Trull, arguably, it was unclear which was the case, especially because he was selected by the elemental warren and not the gods in charge of it.

[Siergiej]

 Gorefest, on 11 July 2016 - 01:59 PM, said:

 Siergiej, on 10 July 2016 - 01:35 PM, said:

Of course the nature of ascendancy and godhood is never fully explained, so it's not necessarily limited to these three and in some cases more than one applies (Karsa, Anomander, Icarium). But Lasseen is not actively pursuing godhood, doesn't cross paths with gods too often (even during convergences she doesn't usually play an active role), has no worshippers, and plays no role in any cult herself. So why would she ascend? It seems like proper circumstances never occured

Well, Baudin never did or had any of those things, and he became Knight of Death. Probably the only true answer is that we simply don't know; there is no clear path(s) to ascendancy, there is no clear description in any of the books so far what ascendancy actually means, and there is no clear indication or suggestion from RotCG or any of the other novels whether Laseen did or did not ascend. She dies, that's all we know. The rest is speculation. Maybe we will see her again in the Koblakai trilogy, who knows. Until then, it's all speculation.

Wasn't he hand-picked by Hood for his role?

 Abyss, on 11 July 2016 - 02:27 PM, said:

 Siergiej, on 11 July 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

... a protector of the Throne of Shadow,

Nope. First Throne. To the extent that he was protecting anything Shadow, it was the kids of the Company and Minala.

Ah, you're right. Need to finally re-read Bonehunters and get the facts straight

[Abyss]

Baudin actually had a decent amount going on.... a trained Talon, survived the Otataral mines, traveled on the Silanda through the Nascent and Kurald Thyrllan. In theory he would have had the same benefits that Stormy, Gesler and Truth received. Also, he sacrificed himself for Felisin.... sacrifice is generally a required element for ascension. Then Hood selected him and aspected him to Death.