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The UK Politics Thread (Formerly the Brexit thread)

#521 User is offline   TheRetiredBridgeburner 

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 09:56 AM

View PostLuv2B_Sassy, on 03 July 2018 - 08:08 PM, said:

Imagine defining 'freedom' as the ability to throw a tantrum that breaks society, instead of as like freedom from constant economic anxiety or geographical restraint or labor abuses.


Oh..... it all makes sense now!
My reaction to Brexit posturing anywhere on my Facebook feed is now basically this - :D

Go down the Winchester, have a pint and wait for it all to blow over.... I can't stand how nasty and aggressive it all gets within seconds of the appearance of a dissenting voice.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 04 July 2018 - 10:46 AM

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#522 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 11:14 AM

We live in a world in which having an opinion is valued. Ability to understand the opinions of others, or being able to articulate why you have a particular opinion or being able to defend it is also not as important as having it.
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#523 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 08:05 PM

This meaning anything? In real world terms I mean.


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#524 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 08:09 PM

Likely nothing will happen because the people who support them are in power. I'd like to think it completely negates the entire referendum but that'll never happen...
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#525 User is online   Macros 

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 08:13 PM

i just want my weekly £350m
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#526 User is offline   polishgenius 

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 10:58 PM

Well, the shit's hit the fan as David Davis and Boris Johnson have both resigned in protest at Theresa May's official policy position on Brexit, which was announced a few days ago 18 months too late). Jeremy Hunt has been appointed foreign sec, to the delight of everyone.
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#527 User is offline   EmperorMagus 

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 01:20 AM

Brexit (and British politics overall) affect me in no discernible way.

Still, I'm delighted, nay, exhilarated, at the news of Jeremy Hunt's new appointment. I haven't been able to stop grinning since I read it at dawn; it has brought light to my day and it shall be a source of mirth and happiness for days (and hopefully months) to come.
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#528 User is offline   LinearPhilosopher 

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 01:59 AM

Apparently its been two years and still no concrete agreement in place.

Apparently this is a very complex issue, not subject to a binary position on the matter
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#529 User is offline   EmperorMagus 

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 02:17 AM

View PostLinearPhilosopher, on 10 July 2018 - 01:59 AM, said:

Apparently its been two years and still no concrete agreement in place.

Apparently this is a very complex issue, not subject to a binary position on the matter


Wait whaaaaaat? What are you saying?

You mean there's no magic 'technological' solution that can keep the immigrants out without shutting the Ireland border? Or you mean EU is reluctant to give up all the benefits of its economic area without any of the drawbacks?

Seriously though, I cannot see why people are surprised that this is happening. Fact of the matter is, all the crap that May is dealing with right now was predictable 2 years ago, and it SHOULD have been brought up during the campaign. The Leave campaign should've had to outline exactly what their plan for a post-brexit deal was before any vote took place.

I don't think leaving the EU is an inherently bad choice (the fight over an EU-wide copyright law has shown me that the European parliament is nearly as bought as the US Congress) - but choosing the leave the EU without having any idea what the hell was going to happen afterwards was, dare I call it, stupid.
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#530 User is offline   TheRetiredBridgeburner 

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 05:27 AM

View PostEmperorMagus, on 10 July 2018 - 02:17 AM, said:

The Leave campaign should've had to outline exactly what their plan for a post-brexit deal was before any vote took place.

I don't think leaving the EU is an inherently bad choice (the fight over an EU-wide copyright law has shown me that the European parliament is nearly as bought as the US Congress) - but choosing the leave the EU without having any idea what the hell was going to happen afterwards was, dare I call it, stupid.


Nail, head, hit.

Yes they should have had to do that. But no, they didn't, because as you say, they didn't have a plan and the whole thing was indeed entirely stupid.
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#531 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 07:02 AM

The stories from the first few meetings between the EU and May's people after the referendum were both hilarious and depressing. May was described as genuinely surprised that the free movement of people was not open for negotiation in relation to access to the EU free market. As if that hadn't been made abundantly clear by everyone beforehand, including by the EU.
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#532 User is online   Macros 

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 07:24 AM

Considering most of the top brexiteers have now fucked off and left may to sort it out when they have never ever had or offered a plan is .... Depressingly hilarious. AFAIK May was a remainer before taking on PM position and had to take the brexiteers stance. Don't get me wrong, I have no sympathy for her, the Tories are not too many steps behind the GOP imo and are massively to blame for the destruction of the NHS. But I feel those brexiteer arseholes shouldn't be allowed to retire citing Mays lack of plan as a problem.
You tickets put the country in this untenable position and it's the border 20 miles from my house that you are going to fuck up
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#533 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 07:48 AM

Hunt as foreign secretary? We're going to privatise foreigners now?
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#534 User is offline   TheRetiredBridgeburner 

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 08:37 AM

Hunt ending up foreign secretary is the craziest bit.... and there's a lot of crazy to go round, let's be frank. Maybe he'll privatise the border?
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#535 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 08:58 AM

Another day another farce...
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#536 User is offline   Coco with marshmallows 

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 09:34 PM

View PostMacros, on 10 July 2018 - 07:24 AM, said:

Considering most of the top brexiteers have now fucked off and left may to sort it out when they have never ever had or offered a plan is .... Depressingly hilarious.



You say that, but they've done it so that when it goes catastrophically wrong, or at least nowhere near as well as they promised, they can say it wasn't their fault as they weren't involved in the negotiations, etc.

And a lot of the brexit voters will buy it, as they've been spoonfed that same pile of shit through the mainstream press (which is still banging on about how wonderful it will be)

Regarding the necessity of Leave having detailed plans beforehand - completely agree. The SNP had to have a detailed white paper out before the Scotland Indy ref detailing their plans for Independence if the vote went their way. The fact that nobody on the Leave side made one (or was even challenged to make one) speaks volumes about the expected results - even Leave didn't think they were going to win.

Boris was using Leave as a means of gaining backbench support from Eurosceptics within the Tory party prior to launching a leadership challenge against Cameron.
Cameron agreed to the referendum as a means of pacifying those same backbenchers and (he hoped) shutting them up when Leave lost.

Murdoch and co in the press fucked them both, quite hilariously, and now we're all going to suffer the consequences....it's enough to make me want to emigrate.
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#537 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 10:44 PM

I wonder if one day, Murdoch will be seen as the biggest evil to befall the 21st Century. Between the British pulp tabloids and Fox News, the man is singlehandedly responsible for rotting more brains than alcoholism. Australia, you have a lot to answer for. Forget traveling back in time to kill Hitler; travel back in time to kill whomever discovered Australia. I am sure the Aboriginals would be thankful too.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 10 July 2018 - 10:47 PM

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#538 User is offline   Battalion 

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 12:50 PM

The idea that we shouldn't have voted for Brexit because it was likely to be difficult is pathetic. It was always going to be difficult, the results, should it be implemented correctly, will be worth it. And just because the goverment has fucked the negotiations up right from thwe start, doesn't mean that voting to Leave was a bad idea. Boris and Davis had no but choice to resign - the delivery of this soft Brexit is surrender of the highest order and betrayal to the voters.
May should be removed from office and make way for someone with some backbone.

Regarding the European Union, a blind man could see that it is in death throes. Killed from within by Merkel herself - and when the union collapses, Brexit will look like a walk in the park. There will be chaos on an unprecidented level (and possibly trade wars, and even real wars) and we will be the lucky ones to be outside of the mess.
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#539 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 01:02 PM

View PostBattalion, on 11 July 2018 - 12:50 PM, said:

The idea that we shouldn't have voted for Brexit because it was likely to be difficult is pathetic. It was always going to be difficult, the results, should it be implemented correctly, will be worth it. And just because the goverment has fucked the negotiations up right from thwe start, doesn't mean that voting to Leave was a bad idea. Boris and Davis had no but choice to resign - the delivery of this soft Brexit is surrender of the highest order and betrayal to the voters.
May should be removed from office and make way for someone with some backbone.

Regarding the European Union, a blind man could see that it is in death throes. Killed from within by Merkel herself - and when the union collapses, Brexit will look like a walk in the park. There will be chaos on an unprecidented level (and possibly trade wars, and even real wars) and we will be the lucky ones to be outside of the mess.


You think not being IN the EU will protect you from any collapse it undergoes? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

I live on the other side of the world, the collapse of the EU would have massive repercussions on us, never mind a neighbor whose economy, trade, and security is all reliant - to greater and lesser degrees - on the stability of Europe as a whole.

It's depressing that there are still people who think that Brexit - of any form - was going to be a win for the UK, never mind that it was never going to go how the Leave campaign spun it (while they knew full-well they could never deliver), and that there's more than one person on this forum who so openly salivates over the idea of others' suffering while "their own" are the "lucky ones".



And I think you'll find the idea is that people shouldn't have voted for Brexit because there was no actual plan in place, it wasn't going to be difficult, it was never going to be beneficial if it was even possible, and because the campaign even IF Brexit was a good idea, was predicated on xenophobia and lies. But y'know.
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<Vote Silencer> For not garnering any heat or any love for that matter. And I'm being serious here, it's like a mental block that is there, and you just keep forgetting it.

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#540 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 01:34 PM

Regardless of whether the EU itself is a failing or failed institution (and I fully appreciate and even share some of those sentiments), the stated reasons and supporting 'evidence' for leaving the EU have mostly nothing to do with its intrinsic weaknesses. A lot of the items that were put forward as reasons for leaving the Union (£350m weekly contributions anyone?) were all items that could already be solved on a domestic level. Many existing problems with migration, national budgets and trade are actually caused by UK government legislature and decisions, where the EU was used mainly as a scapegoat. So the whole rationale for exiting the Union was based on false or at the very least misleading information. This is also the main reason why the UK government cannot seem to find any consensus on what they actually want to achieve by leaving, because most of the issues that were raised as reasons for leaving were only marginally linked to the EU and its policies. So now they are faced with trying to fix problems that are not caused by the very thing they are trying to get away from.

A prime example is the leave claim that due to the EU free movement of people, the UK was flooded with Eastern European migrants seeking quick welfare boosts and free housing and social/medical care. This is a complete fallacy. There is nothing in EU guidelines that prevents member states from monitoring and restricting access to EU migrants based on selection criteria. In actual fact, when Poland and later on Romania and Bulgaria joined the EU, most countries that expected an influx put measures in place to manage this. Germany did. The Netherlands did. France did. Belgium did. The UK government never bothered to do so because they thought it wouldn't be that bad.

Case in point: when I moved over to the UK in 2006 from the Netherlands, I was absolutely astounded that I could just come and settle down without any real paperwork involvement. In the Netherlands I was used to have to register myself at my local council and when moving from city to city I had to sign myself out with the old council and sign up with the new one. Government institution data was all linked up (student allowances, healthcare, jobsekker allowance, taxes, etc). I had an ID card that I needed to keep on me to ensure that police or government services could easily check identification when queried. When I came to the UK, there was nothing of the sort in place. If I hadn't bothered registering myself and actively seek to obtain local voting rights and employment status etc, I could have just vanished from the public radar. There is a structural lack of checks and controls in UK public services. sure, there is tons of paperwork to fill out, but it doesn't actually seem to be recorded logically or linked up in a sensible fashion. That is not an EU issue, that is a UK issue.


On the budget front, the majority of the money that the UK contributes to the EU is returned in some form or other, so it is a total fallacy to claim that there is this huge pot of money that is being thrown away and could be used instead for the NHS or other emotive areas. Sure, the UK is a net contributor, as is the Netherlands, but the UK also benefits in other ways through rejuvination of the work force and sharing technological and trade deal advantages that it would not be able to obtain on its own.


So yeah, the EU may not be ideal, but if you decide to leave it should be based on truthful arguments and factual information, coupled with a clear plan as to why and what you want to gain from having an independent UK. Sadly, none of these basic conditions were met. This was just a childish and short-sighted political game that completely derailed and backfired, not a deliberate and thought-out process aimed to improve the lives of UK citizens. And that is a fact.
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