[Mezla PigDog]

It's ridiculous fun.

[WinterPhoenix]

Macros, on 21 August 2016 - 07:01 PM, said:

I just don't get the love for wrestling once past the age of... Like 14/15/16.
I mean its clearly not actual fighting, its just really really badly acted soap opera.

I used to love watching it was a kid on sunday mornings I think it aired with us, jake the snake and hacksaw jim duggan era, but it wore off pretty quickly when my brain equated punch plus foot stamp.

Not trying to make fun, Im just genuinely baffled what the appeal is to grown adults?

SUMMMMMMERSLAAAAAMMMMMM!

That is all...

[Aptorian]

Did you guys see this argument between Daniel Bryant and The Miz?

https://streamable.com/yvwz

I can't tell if this was a work or a work that turned into a shoot, but I actually have a lot more respect for The Miz after that tirade. I find the Miz underwhelming as a wrestler but he has a point.

[Aptorian]

Macros, on 21 August 2016 - 07:01 PM, said:

I just don't get the love for wrestling once past the age of... Like 14/15/16.
I mean its clearly not actual fighting, its just really really badly acted soap opera.
I used to love watching it was a kid on Sunday mornings I think it aired with us, jake the snake and hacksaw jim duggan era, but it wore off pretty quickly when my brain equated punch plus foot stamp.

Not trying to make fun, Im just genuinely baffled what the appeal is to grown adults?

I am kind of with you. The actual wrestling in or outside the ring, doesn't really interest me. At least not WWE wrestling. I prefer faster, crazier more agile wrestling like you might see in Japan or Mexico. Where they do crazy moves, actually do chain wrestling combo's and they don't look like they are gassed after 5 minutes.

I like Wrestling that looks like a sport and not giant toddlers pretend punching one another.

But the thing that is really fascinating about Wrestling to me, is the history, the culture and the meta of wrestling.

When you start to read up on Wrestling culture, you realise WWE and it's competitors are more or less like really popular circus shows. It's run by carnies that have their own language, rituals and blood feuds.

While the stories are silly, dumb or outright embarrassing at times. There is something fascinating about what they are doing when you start to realise the relationship to the fanbase.

The concept of selling wrestlers as Faces and Heels, is fascinating from a story telling perspective. I think a lot of story tellers could learn from studying how wrestlers become faces or heels and how they switch between these roles.

There's also that blurring of reality and fantasy, when things are done straight face (kayfabe) or things become a shoot when famous, storied wrestlers are pitted against one another.

Personally I love the discussion of Wrestling, more than the actual wrestling.

WinterPhoenix said:

SUMMMMMMERSLAAAAAMMMMMM!

That is all...

Re-subbed to WWE network over the weekend. Watched both Battleground and Summerslam over the past couple of days.

Spoiler

I loved the Rusev vs Reigns match. That sure does look like a beginning face and heel switch between Rusev and Roman.

I'd never seen Finn Balor wrestle before but I think him and Seth Rollins was a great match up. I was actually more caught up by Balors body-paint than the actual fight. That's the longest lasting coat of paint I have ever seen in a fight.

That Lesnar vs Orton match was a weird one. Much like the Lesnar vs Untertaker or Lesnar vs Dean Ambrose fight I just don't buy the whole "unstoppable monster" gimmick. It's so silly to see Lesnar supplex and F5 somebody for 20 minutes and seeing the other one pretending to be struggling.

That beat down finisher was obviously a work. I've followed reddit and social media the past couple of days and people seem to believe that Lesnar legit went over board and busted open Orton, as though it wasn't a planned ending.

So silly. I'd have preferred if Lesnar resurrected the legend killer persona and finally put down Lesnar.

This post has been edited by Apt: 24 August 2016 - 05:29 AM

[WinterPhoenix]

Some of the really famous shoot matches where it becomes real are genuinely fascinating to watch (not because they are good, they are generally awful tbh) and read about. Antonio Inoki booking Andre the Giant to go against the returning Akira Maeda in an attempt to teach Maeda a lesson for attacking 'pro wrestling' as fake during his time away from NJPW - Andre no sold all his offense, so Maeda starts throwing vicious kicks at his legs, but he won't get in close so the match just standstills. Still other's are kinda brutal to watch, like Inoki beating the ever loving crap out of The Great Antonio in a 6 minute long fight with is like 4-5 minutes of the most boring thing I've ever seen and then Inoki loosing his shit and kicking the other guy in the head over and over again :/ Though I suppose the most brutal one (and honestly kinda fucking scary to read about) is the so-called 'Mass transit incident', read about that one! I've never watched it, not sure if any footage exists actually and I don't wanna see it if it does, but all I can say is, New Jack is fucking insane and should never have been allowed to wrestle again.

I literally couldn't possibly agree with you more about the actual wrestling, I want to see it as more of a sport than 'badly written soap opera' - though I also honestly believe that when everything comes together correctly, performers and writers, it's genuine a few steps above bad soap opera at worst - I also watch Lucha Underground and NJPW for that fact - see the recent G1 climax in New Japan for a myriad examples of truly great wreslting matches for example. NXT is also far closer to the foreign agencies as well in the matches it puts on (with way better writing than the flagship shows) and has had an influx of indie wrestlers and ex-TNA guys who are fantastic wrestlers in the vein of it being more like a sport. I still enjoy WWE for what it is though, and even there at the highest level wrestling as a sport is starting to become closer, Sami Zayn, Kevin Owens, Seth Rollins, Cesaro, Dean Ambrose and AJ Styles are all guys who paid their dues in indie companies, ROH, TNA etc, and can put on stellar performances that are simply amazing to watch. With Nakamura, Bobby Roode, Austin Aries, Eric Young and others still in NXT as well, the future looks bright for wrestling as more of a sport in the WWE. AJ Styles is probably the greatest professional wrestler of the last decade, even Hiroshi Tanahashi (widely regarded among wrestling fans as the greatest wrestler performing today) has said he believes AJ to be the best right now, and he's been tearing it up in WWE - though the booking has been pretty shit until now, that's what you expect under a Vince driven RAW.

Spoiler

Yeah, I think a crap ton of people, myself included wanted Orton to resume the Legend Killer moniker and simply put payed to this ongoing Lesnar rubbish. If the man was using even 1 fifth of his in-ring talent he'd be fun to watch, but he's just phoning it in for one suplex city borefest after another. I wanted Orton to punt kick his head from his shoulders tbh!

Nonetheless, Styles beat Cena clean and as such I could not have been happier about the entire PPV

This post has been edited by WinterPhoenix: 25 August 2016 - 01:42 AM

[Gorefest]

Macros, on 21 August 2016 - 07:01 PM, said:

I just don't get the love for wrestling once past the age of... Like 14/15/16.
I mean its clearly not actual fighting, its just really really badly acted soap opera.

I used to love watching it was a kid on sunday mornings I think it aired with us, jake the snake and hacksaw jim duggan era, but it wore off pretty quickly when my brain equated punch plus foot stamp.

Not trying to make fun, Im just genuinely baffled what the appeal is to grown adults?

Why do people watch Olympic gymnastics? Why do people go to a circus? Why do people watch martial arts demonstration matches? Why do people watch soap operas, for that matter?

Firstly, it is lots of good harmless fun, as Mezla pointed out already.

Secondly, the skill and execution on display is at times breathtaking. In a "non-fake" martial arts or other competitive fighting match-up, the main aim of the competitors is to take each other out and they couldn't care less whether it looks fancy to the audience. In show wrestling, the moves and actions are aimed primarily at awing and entertaining the audience, so the wrestlers can put their full skills set on display.

Thirdly, again as opposed to competitive fighting sports, each wrestler has a persona and tells a story, which means that (like in a soap opera, for lack of a better comparison off the top of my head) the audience is invested in the feud that is played out and therefore more emotionally engaged with the actual match.

Fourthly, even though the outcome of the match is fixed, this outcome is unknown to the fans and although you can often have a good guess on how it will end based on prior knowledge of the combatants and the storylines, there is lots of scope for 'surprise' endings that really get you to mark out. Undertaker's loss at WrestleMania a few year ago is such an example, when his undefeated streak of 21 year (!) was broken.

Fifthly, the interaction of the combatants with the fans is awesome and already this sole point should be enough to justify its appeal. This becomes very clear when you actually visit shows in person instead of watching them on TV, especially if you go to a house show instead of a televised one. The wrestlers react to crowd responses, both during promos and during the actual match, which creates a very immersive experience that makes you as an audience member almost part of the match. Wrestlers also have a lot of personal input invested in their personas, because even though there is a team of creative writers who set out the main storylines, whether you as a wrestler connect to the crowd and get a personal fan base depends in a large part on your interaction with and understanding of those fans. Roman Reigns got pushed to death by the writers and the company but failed to make that connection, whereas someone like Cesaro or Damien Sandow hardly get any good opportunities but have very loyal fan support. Someone like Daniel Bryan made it to the top - despite - the company (read: Vince).

Sixthly (is that even a word anymore?), the history of the sport, as Apt rightly pointed out, is vast and loaded with amazing real-life stories and anekdotes. It is a microcosmos of Shakespearean tragedies and Malazan compassion, played out over many decades and across many continents. As a Malazan fan, I challenge you, how could someone not love that?


I've run out of points now. I'm sure you're all very relieved to hear it.

[worry]

Seventhly, it's (mostly) buff dudes in underwear. Where else do you see that kind of thing regularly on TV?

[Gorefest]

Keeping up Appearances springs to mind.

[WinterPhoenix]

Gorefest did a better job than I ever could have of explaining the appeal, and I have to second what he says about going to shows (especially house shows) with every bone in my body, the experience is vastly different than watching it on TV. The wrestlers interaction with the crowd is often brilliant, obviously some are better than others - Kevin Owens is amazing with crowds from what I've seen on video of House shows and such (and his earlier Indie exploits in high school gyms across the country), unfortunately never seen him live.

He makes a great point about the scripted nature of matches as well, when it's done well there is great scope for surprise, and when the performers are very good even if you're going in convinced of the result the journey is often worth it nonetheless. And as I said above somewhere in all that rambling mess I posted before, when everyone involved is on point the final product is genuinely a helluva lot more enjoyable than bad soap operas. So even though I tend more towards enjoying it when it's treated as a sport as opposed to an often over-dramatized product, when it's done well as WWE used to do quite consistently it's honestly very enjoyable. I do feel as though there is marked drop in the quality of writers these days though :/

The skill on display is breathtaking at times, the choreographed nature of the events does not detract from this, in fact it's even more spectacular to do these things without causing injury to oneself or others. Now I do tend to agree with Apt that much of the really spectacular stuff exists in foreign companies such as NJPW and Lucha Underground and such, but as I said above that is changing in the present day, NXT really heralded a change in the direction of WWE - one that I'm not sure will be completed until Vince no longer has any involvement with the product at all, but it is a change that's noticeable still. I try to watch as much pro wrestling as I can because if you do then you run the full gamut of styles.

Anyone who wants to see some breathtakingly skillful wrestling, type Ricochet Vs Will Ospreay into google, you wont regret it

[Gorefest]

Holy crap. 'Glorious' is no.1 on iTunes.

[WinterPhoenix]

Oh shit, really? That's....glorious

[Gorefest]

Just caught up with last Monday's RAW.

Holy shit. Best show ending since Seth's chair blow to Reigns' back a few years ago. Amazing stuff.

[WinterPhoenix]

I know right, I was jubilant after RAW the other day, Owens deserves it so damn much. Just need Styles to beat Ambrose now and they'll legitimately have the two most deserving superstars with the top 2 belts.

If you're still behind on the CWC you NEED to catch up, it's been fantastic the last few weeks.

[Gorefest]

Seen the first set of second round matches. I think I'm only one episode behind.

[WinterPhoenix]

They had the first of the quarters on this past Wednesday now as well, the last 2 weeks have just been brilliant, not a single dud match in my opinion.

[Aptorian]

I finished the Clash of Champions PPV this morning.

Not wildly interested in that show, but I liked the cruiser weight match and the Cesaro vs Sheamus fight.

That match between Cesaro and Sheamus was a really great back and forth match that made both wrestlers look strong as fuck. I didn't mind the way the ended the match but I wish they'd sold the exhausted/broken angle better than just a final clothesline.

I hadn't watched any of Jericho's matches during his heel run. Honestly, I think he's gotten too old. He excellent on the mike and does a great job as a heel but he's too slow to wrestle now. It's more fan pleasing than actually impressive performances he does.

Speaking of Jericho I've gotten into a couple Wrestling podcasts.

I am listening to Talk is Jericho and 6:05 Superpodcast.

Jericho's podcast is phenomenal. He's a great, well researched interviewer and the guests he has on the show is incredibly interesting. Yesterday I heard an episode with Shep Gordon the manager of Alice Cooper and a host of other famous musicians from the 70s and 80s. That guy is ridiculously well connected.

6:05 is like a nostalgia podcast for a time I never experienced. The two hosts know a hell of lot about the old days of wrestling and the wrestling territories. It's fascinating to hear the stories about what went on behind the scenes back then.

I'm thinking of following Going in Raw as well but there's a lot of hours I have to go through first.

[Aptorian]

Anybody watch Hell in a Cell yesterday?

This was the first Cage match event I have watched in full. For all the dramatic build up before this event this sure was a crappy idea. What is the point of the cell if it's just a substitute for the normal ring barriers? The chain fence obviously would do less damage to get thrown into than the ordinary barriers around ring side.

This was just ordinary matches with some weapons and props thrown in.

Way I see it, the only way HIAC actually works if it was a sort of Halloween R-rated event where once a year they drop the PG-era stuff. Just beat the shit out of each other, blade all over the place and generally create a real notion of horror. That cell should be covered in blood by the last match.

All in all just not a very interesting pay per view. I love Cesaro and Sheamus though.

[Gorefest]

Watching it tonight, so cannot comment yet. But I do think having three Hell in a Cell matches is massive overkill.

Going to the live tapings in Glasgow next week. Fingers crossed that Mick Foley will show!

[Aptorian]

What's people's thoughts on Goldberg vs Lesnar at Survivor Series?





Before they actually announced Goldbergs return, I thought it was a terrible idea. Goldberg has like half the muscle mass of old and while he is clearly still in shape, I can't really see Goldberg being a believable opponent for Lesnar. He's old.

But I think the return promo and yesterdays RAW taping suggest it might work. Might. The problem I see with the fight now, is that they are selling it wrong. Goldberg is rusty, he's older, slower, out of practice. The match if the book it as a straight up fight of equals is going to be a mess. However if they'd sold Goldberg as an underdog, David vs Goliath, I think it would work much better. Old guy vs younger guy. He'd have to use brains vs Lesnars brawn.

I'm also a bit surprised that the match is happening this quickly. I'd have expected them to televise the match at Wrestlemania earliest. Maybe give it a whole year, with a build up that could give the match more of a story and tension. It would also give WWE a chance to send Goldberg to developmental and let Goldberg get in better shape.

[Gorefest]

It's just a gimmick to spin some more money and to reintroduce Goldberg to the kids who buy the WWE2k17 game and have never heard of him apart from when people cynically chanted 'Goooooold-berg' at Ryback. The match is going to be awful, but that's not the point. It will be nice nostalgia for long-time fans who can still remember their last match (which was awful), and it will be a little celebration of WCW/WWE history for the more recent followers. The match itself is a triviality. I thought it would have been better for WrestleMania too, but again I think it is purely to bolster the sales of WWE2k17.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 02 November 2016 - 01:40 PM