[LinearPhilosopher]

according to reddit, the attacks have ended.

I guess well start getting a better picture of what happened in the morning as people start putting the pieces together.

[Andorion]

This reminds me of the 26/11 attacks on Mumbai. Attacks on multiple sites, heavily armed terrorists....Yeah I think there is going to be an ISIS link

[Andorion]

A few things I have to say, but this may not be very popular

1. Europe has to learn to fight these type of attacks physically, from a security point of view as well as culturally. Europe may be a bit new to this, but my country has faced this since the 1990s and this depressingly familiar

2. There has been some mention of disenfranchised people. I think you need to look at that not just from an economic point of view but also from a socio-cultural point of view. A few years ago we had a major problem with homegrown terrorist cells called Indian Mujahideen, When a few of these cells were broken some of the people arrested were well-educated and employed. I am talking about software developers and engineers. Its not just a case of poverty, but the idea(perception) of social persecution and inferiority that is very important here,

3. As long as the world depends on the Middle East for fuel this won't stop. Saudi Arabia sponsors this culturally as well as economically. The history and cultural landscape of Islam is incredibly rich and varied, but Saudi Arabia exports an aggressive, fundamentalist Wahabbi brand of Islam that lends itself easily to fundamentalist manipulation and recruitment. I believe Austria tried to tackle this a few months back.

4. This battle needs to be fought at the level of discourse. At the moment that is controlled by extremists at both sides, with ISIS vs Islamophobes, with some people talking about moderate muslims in the middle. The result is that the job of the recruiter with respect to demonisation of the West is far easier. What needs to be done, I think is that knowledgeable people have to be highlighted by the media as they talk about alternative Islams. And there are many. Research the history of the Caliphate of Cordoba or Baghdad under Harun al Rashid, or even Mughal Delhi. Islam has far more to say than what is being presented everyday on the popular level

5. The West needs to start tackling radicalisation seriously. Whenever I see anything about this, I find any calls for reform are immediately met by accusations of racism and Islamophobia. Speaking as a resident of a country with a sizeable Muslim population, I think some comments that seem Islamophobic are true. Especially when it comes to the position of women,

Thats all for now. A few of my thoughts are a bit unformed as I am still thinking about them

[LinearPhilosopher]

Andorion, on 14 November 2015 - 02:57 AM, said:

A few things I have to say, but this may not be very popular

1. Europe has to learn to fight these type of attacks physically, from a security point of view as well as culturally. Europe may be a bit new to this, but my country has faced this since the 1990s and this depressingly familiar

2. There has been some mention of disenfranchised people. I think you need to look at that not just from an economic point of view but also from a socio-cultural point of view. A few years ago we had a major problem with homegrown terrorist cells called Indian Mujahideen, When a few of these cells were broken some of the people arrested were well-educated and employed. I am talking about software developers and engineers. Its not just a case of poverty, but the idea(perception) of social persecution and inferiority that is very important here,

3. As long as the world depends on the Middle East for fuel this won't stop. Saudi Arabia sponsors this culturally as well as economically. The history and cultural landscape of Islam is incredibly rich and varied, but Saudi Arabia exports an aggressive, fundamentalist Wahabbi brand of Islam that lends itself easily to fundamentalist manipulation and recruitment. I believe Austria tried to tackle this a few months back.

4. This battle needs to be fought at the level of discourse. At the moment that is controlled by extremists at both sides, with ISIS vs Islamophobes, with some people talking about moderate muslims in the middle. The result is that the job of the recruiter with respect to demonisation of the West is far easier. What needs to be done, I think is that knowledgeable people have to be highlighted by the media as they talk about alternative Islams. And there are many. Research the history of the Caliphate of Cordoba or Baghdad under Harun al Rashid, or even Mughal Delhi. Islam has far more to say than what is being presented everyday on the popular level

5. The West needs to start tackling radicalisation seriously. Whenever I see anything about this, I find any calls for reform are immediately met by accusations of racism and Islamophobia. Speaking as a resident of a country with a sizeable Muslim population, I think some comments that seem Islamophobic are true. Especially when it comes to the position of women,

Thats all for now. A few of my thoughts are a bit unformed as I am still thinking about them

Can i safely assume you're from india?

I agree with the points you make but how does one start tackling radicalisation seriously?

[Andorion]

LinearPhilosopher, on 14 November 2015 - 03:15 AM, said:

Andorion, on 14 November 2015 - 02:57 AM, said:

A few things I have to say, but this may not be very popular

1. Europe has to learn to fight these type of attacks physically, from a security point of view as well as culturally. Europe may be a bit new to this, but my country has faced this since the 1990s and this depressingly familiar

2. There has been some mention of disenfranchised people. I think you need to look at that not just from an economic point of view but also from a socio-cultural point of view. A few years ago we had a major problem with homegrown terrorist cells called Indian Mujahideen, When a few of these cells were broken some of the people arrested were well-educated and employed. I am talking about software developers and engineers. Its not just a case of poverty, but the idea(perception) of social persecution and inferiority that is very important here,

3. As long as the world depends on the Middle East for fuel this won't stop. Saudi Arabia sponsors this culturally as well as economically. The history and cultural landscape of Islam is incredibly rich and varied, but Saudi Arabia exports an aggressive, fundamentalist Wahabbi brand of Islam that lends itself easily to fundamentalist manipulation and recruitment. I believe Austria tried to tackle this a few months back.

4. This battle needs to be fought at the level of discourse. At the moment that is controlled by extremists at both sides, with ISIS vs Islamophobes, with some people talking about moderate muslims in the middle. The result is that the job of the recruiter with respect to demonisation of the West is far easier. What needs to be done, I think is that knowledgeable people have to be highlighted by the media as they talk about alternative Islams. And there are many. Research the history of the Caliphate of Cordoba or Baghdad under Harun al Rashid, or even Mughal Delhi. Islam has far more to say than what is being presented everyday on the popular level

5. The West needs to start tackling radicalisation seriously. Whenever I see anything about this, I find any calls for reform are immediately met by accusations of racism and Islamophobia. Speaking as a resident of a country with a sizeable Muslim population, I think some comments that seem Islamophobic are true. Especially when it comes to the position of women,

Thats all for now. A few of my thoughts are a bit unformed as I am still thinking about them

Can i safely assume you're from india?

I agree with the points you make but how does one start tackling radicalisation seriously?

Yeah i am from India.

Like I said, you need to start tackling it at the level of discourse. The image of a diverse Islam has to be made prominent, so a young man in search for an identity can choose. And this diverse Islam exists. In India, in the state of Rajasthan, in Ajmer, there is a Dargah ( a tomb and worship site) of a Sufi saint
The Sufis are a sect of Islam that was extremely popular here in Medieval times. They preached love and brotherhood along with simple values of peace. They were extremely popular especially among the poor and often irrespective of religion. This popularity continues today. My family is Hindu (though I am an atheist) and in 2001 when my grandmother was diagnosed with Leukaemia, my mother went across the country to Ajmer and prayed at the Dargah.
My grandmother is alive and well to this day (her maximum prognosis was 2011) and my mother always remembers the spiritual experience she had there.

Its stories like this, the diversity, the variety, the inclusiveness that need to be highlighted. Fundamentalists like to show everything in black and white. But reality is messy, like a kaleidoscope and these other worldviews need to get aired, need to be shown and alternatives need to be presented.

Regarding reform, I think the state has to take very proactive steps in emphasising female education and employment, organise community workshops and events which deal with gender empowerment and gender equality. Steps need to be taken to ensure a secular and balanced education for children, This may sound anti-Islam but often Madrasas (traditional Islamic schools) are the breeding grounds of fundamentalism, because of the way they lend themselves to preaching a skewed view of the world.

[LinearPhilosopher]

Andorion, on 14 November 2015 - 03:46 AM, said:

LinearPhilosopher, on 14 November 2015 - 03:15 AM, said:

Andorion, on 14 November 2015 - 02:57 AM, said:

A few things I have to say, but this may not be very popular

1. Europe has to learn to fight these type of attacks physically, from a security point of view as well as culturally. Europe may be a bit new to this, but my country has faced this since the 1990s and this depressingly familiar

2. There has been some mention of disenfranchised people. I think you need to look at that not just from an economic point of view but also from a socio-cultural point of view. A few years ago we had a major problem with homegrown terrorist cells called Indian Mujahideen, When a few of these cells were broken some of the people arrested were well-educated and employed. I am talking about software developers and engineers. Its not just a case of poverty, but the idea(perception) of social persecution and inferiority that is very important here,

3. As long as the world depends on the Middle East for fuel this won't stop. Saudi Arabia sponsors this culturally as well as economically. The history and cultural landscape of Islam is incredibly rich and varied, but Saudi Arabia exports an aggressive, fundamentalist Wahabbi brand of Islam that lends itself easily to fundamentalist manipulation and recruitment. I believe Austria tried to tackle this a few months back.

4. This battle needs to be fought at the level of discourse. At the moment that is controlled by extremists at both sides, with ISIS vs Islamophobes, with some people talking about moderate muslims in the middle. The result is that the job of the recruiter with respect to demonisation of the West is far easier. What needs to be done, I think is that knowledgeable people have to be highlighted by the media as they talk about alternative Islams. And there are many. Research the history of the Caliphate of Cordoba or Baghdad under Harun al Rashid, or even Mughal Delhi. Islam has far more to say than what is being presented everyday on the popular level

5. The West needs to start tackling radicalisation seriously. Whenever I see anything about this, I find any calls for reform are immediately met by accusations of racism and Islamophobia. Speaking as a resident of a country with a sizeable Muslim population, I think some comments that seem Islamophobic are true. Especially when it comes to the position of women,

Thats all for now. A few of my thoughts are a bit unformed as I am still thinking about them

Can i safely assume you're from india?

I agree with the points you make but how does one start tackling radicalisation seriously?

Yeah i am from India.

Like I said, you need to start tackling it at the level of discourse. The image of a diverse Islam has to be made prominent, so a young man in search for an identity can choose. And this diverse Islam exists. In India, in the state of Rajasthan, in Ajmer, there is a Dargah ( a tomb and worship site) of a Sufi saint
The Sufis are a sect of Islam that was extremely popular here in Medieval times. They preached love and brotherhood along with simple values of peace. They were extremely popular especially among the poor and often irrespective of religion. This popularity continues today. My family is Hindu (though I am an atheist) and in 2001 when my grandmother was diagnosed with Leukaemia, my mother went across the country to Ajmer and prayed at the Dargah.
My grandmother is alive and well to this day (her maximum prognosis was 2011) and my mother always remembers the spiritual experience she had there.

Its stories like this, the diversity, the variety, the inclusiveness that need to be highlighted. Fundamentalists like to show everything in black and white. But reality is messy, like a kaleidoscope and these other worldviews need to get aired, need to be shown and alternatives need to be presented.

Regarding reform, I think the state has to take very proactive steps in emphasising female education and employment, organise community workshops and events which deal with gender empowerment and gender equality. Steps need to be taken to ensure a secular and balanced education for children, This may sound anti-Islam but often Madrasas (traditional Islamic schools) are the breeding grounds of fundamentalism, because of the way they lend themselves to preaching a skewed view of the world.

Current political systems don't encourage thinking beyond 4-5 years. Those reforms would take a generation's worth of time to see changes (and those changes wouldn't be easily visible). Call me cynical but i can't see that happening. THe likely outcome will be increases in security measures with a curbing of personal freedoms which has the bandaid affect of making the politicians doing something about when in reality they aren't fixing anything and just raising goverment expenses for no benefit.

[Andorion]

You are probably correct, but the problems we face now are the product many generations worth of events. Long-term is the only viable way to go.

On the other hand, if you can hit terrorist funding, you will seriously jeopardise their activities.

[Macros]

I think media in general needs to be re-educated, at the minute it simply fuels anti Islam feelings in the west, as well as misinforming the unwashed masses, generating an almost mob mentality that will result in innocent Muslims feeling the sharp end of the stick l, regardless of how long, and how peacefully, they have lived in the west. Which will give extremists more recruits.

This has to be fought at an ideological level, a light needs to be shone on the hate preachers and their arguments carefully, and simply, pulled apart for the people they are trying to indoctrinate into hate. The west needs to pull their sticky fingers out of the middle east, because involvement over there does not help. Military involvement I mean.

[Shinrei]

At times like these I read the news, watch some reactions and just feel a sense of helplessness tinged with both sadness and anger. What can I do? Nothing except sit here and finish a bottle of French wine. Completely useless, I know, but it's all I can handle right now.

[HoosierDaddy]

Yeah, Shin. I gotcha.

You have our sympathy and anything else you need.

[Solidsnape]

This shit is going to start annoying me.
"A Syrian passport was found next to the body of one of three suicide bombers who struck near the Stade de France stadium during the game.
A Greek minister says the passport belonged to a Syrian refugee who passed through the island of Leros."
-BBC News.
A very sad day. Even sadder when we look at the sentiments being expressed above, rather well, by Macros and Andorion.
The anti-Islamic spin that will be generated because of this, will be horrible.
And now we will have to listen to arseholes spout bullshit about how "we knew this would happen when we let so many "refugees" across our borders!"

Yeah, it's a sad day.
I hope the French government act with a modicom of restraint in this issue. However popular opinion runs, this could turn into another post 911 witch hunt.
I've already read that IS have claimed responsibility. We can believe this as much as we can believe that there was a Syrian passport belonging to a "so-called refugee"
found at the scene. It may well be true, but the media implications are just so convenient. Wether or not IS are behind this, it suits their image to say they are. Like firing an arrow and painting a bullseye around it afterwards. And if these guys did come through Syria? So we let hundreds and thousands of genuine refugees perish because of this stupendously small number of malcontents? I don't believe this crap needs pointing out at all, unless you have an agenda.
I believe 129 people are dead and many greavously injured for plain old simple hate, anger and prejudice.
Generally the recipient responds in kind.
That's the pattern isn't it? Almost like it's an imposed pattern.

[Tsundoku]

Interesting short article in The Atlantic comparing this with 9/11 and stating the USA should be now as France was then - urging caution:

http://www.theatlant...ons-911/416052/

[Cause]

I was reading an article just a moment ago that reports that the French intelligence services knew the attackers and had them under surveillance. Same as with the Hebo case a while back. We will have to wait a while to learn the truth but it seems to speak volumes about the divide between intelligence and the ability to act.

[Tsundoku]

It seems some people's attempts to remind the rest of us that Syria, Beirut etc are also suffering terribly have met with vitriolic responses on social media. For the life of me I cannot see why anyone would get angry just because someone has said "Yes, this is terrible, but so is this, and this ..."

http://www.news.com....q-1227609927184

[Andorion]

Tsundoku, on 15 November 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

It seems some people's attempts to remind the rest of us that Syria, Beirut etc are also suffering terribly have met with vitriolic responses on social media. For the life of me I cannot see why anyone would get angry just because someone has said "Yes, this is terrible, but so is this, and this ..."

http://www.news.com....q-1227609927184

From what I saw on Reddit, many people have been desensitized to violence in the Middle East. To them its just another bomb in a long string of bombs. This may account for the lack of coverage.

As for vitriolic responses, most places outside the West are viewed as 'foreign' strange, exotic and terrible. Tragedies there carry a different meaning and have inherently less significance than tragedies within the West. So when the West has suffered a tragedy, many people react angrily to what they see as attempts to distract from the 'real' problem.

Another reason might be that many see attacks in the Middle East as essentially "Muslims killing Muslims and they have only themselves to blame" this is of course a more extreme, xenophobic tone but I am sure it finds sympathy in many places.

Generally speaking tragedies in the West are presented as more significant. I often see reports of floods in Europe or America. The death toll is usually quite low - 5-10 on average. When floods happen in India, as they did this year, the death toll is in the hundreds, Yet I rarely see Indian floods on the international news.

[Tsundoku]

Andorion, on 15 November 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

Generally speaking tragedies in the West are presented as more significant. I often see reports of floods in Europe or America. The death toll is usually quite low - 5-10 on average. When floods happen in India, as they did this year, the death toll is in the hundreds, Yet I rarely see Indian floods on the international news.

Sadly, you have a very valid point.

Would it be a part of the "out of sight, out of mind" thing as well as perhaps an "us and them" view?

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 15 November 2015 - 10:07 AM

[Cause]

Tsundoku, on 15 November 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

It seems some people's attempts to remind the rest of us that Syria, Beirut etc are also suffering terribly have met with vitriolic responses on social media. For the life of me I cannot see why anyone would get angry just because someone has said "Yes, this is terrible, but so is this, and this ..."

http://www.news.com....q-1227609927184

Its odd that you bring it up. I was going post something about it the post before yours but decided I didn't feel that strongly about it. But since you bring it up.

There is nothing wrong with saying Syrians lives matter as much as French lives. That's not what I feel most of theses posts are really about. Most of the posts I have see of FB come from a certain kind of person I know who are tripping over themselves to be seen as PC or at least some kind of morally superior. 'I care about not just the French but also about Syria, I am better than you' is how many of those posts come across to me. Syria has been the victim of a civil war and ISIS for 3 years and longer (if you don't know its happening there is something wrong with you). Is it really such a surprise that a terrorist attack in Paris of all places with over a hundred casualties is breaking news. We think of Europe and Paris as safe. It was not on Friday the 13th. It's a big deal.

A more apt comparison is the Beirut bombing which happened the same day and had the same cause and probably perpetrators. Yes again its taken a back seat to Paris. Lebanon is Syria's neighbour. Paris is half a world away. Yet IsiS reached out and took over a hundred lives in Paris. If they can attack Paris, they can attack the UK and Germany etc. Is it a wonder that the western media gave priority to Paris or that the west has a greater appetite for the Paris story? If the purpose of such posts was to unite the world I would gladly accept them, instead to me they seem far more derisive in tone.

I have even seen people post about how they care about the Japanese tsunami which has taken a back seat! Again people so desperate to come across as morally superior they never took the time to learn the tsunami is 30 cm high and caused no major injuries or damage.

Now that is just the response of individual people on Facebook. Just as bad, no worse, have been the responses of some governments and NGOs. Before the dust of the explosions had settled the south African Palestinian solidarity group BDS sent a letter of condolences to the French people. They state they stand in solidarity with them and abhor all forms of 'extremism and barbarity‚ be it the extremism and barbarity of Netanyahu and Israel or that of ISIS and Boko Haram'. What started out as a letter of condolence just become a press briefing to attack Israel. A group which has hosted at my university a plane hijacker and failed suicide bomber would like to deplore terrorism? Jewish and Israeli interest groups have plaid the same card in reverse. Solidarity means respect, a minute of silence, attending funerals etc. It does not mean using tragedy to further politics.

[Andorion]

Tsundoku, on 15 November 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

Andorion, on 15 November 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

Generally speaking tragedies in the West are presented as more significant. I often see reports of floods in Europe or America. The death toll is usually quite low - 5-10 on average. When floods happen in India, as they did this year, the death toll is in the hundreds, Yet I rarely see Indian floods on the international news.

Sadly, you have a very valid point.

Would it be a part of the "out of sight, out of mind" thing as well as perhaps an "us and them" view?

Physical distance is an issue, but the 'otherisation' of the non-west or the 'Orient' in Social Science terminology has always been and continues to be a major issue in Western perceptions. If you see something as distant and different, then your reactions to it will be seriously affected.

[Andorion]

Cause, on 15 November 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

Tsundoku, on 15 November 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

It seems some people's attempts to remind the rest of us that Syria, Beirut etc are also suffering terribly have met with vitriolic responses on social media. For the life of me I cannot see why anyone would get angry just because someone has said "Yes, this is terrible, but so is this, and this ..."

http://www.news.com....q-1227609927184

Its odd that you bring it up. I was going post something about it the post before yours but decided I didn't feel that strongly about it. But since you bring it up.

There is nothing wrong with saying Syrians lives matter as much as French lives. That's not what I feel most of theses posts are really about. Most of the posts I have see of FB come from a certain kind of person I know who are tripping over themselves to be seen as PC or at least some kind of morally superior. 'I care about not just the French but also about Syria, I am better than you' is how many of those posts come across to me. Syria has been the victim of a civil war and ISIS for 3 years and longer (if you don't know its happening there is something wrong with you). Is it really such a surprise that a terrorist attack in Paris of all places with over a hundred casualties is breaking news. We think of Europe and Paris as safe. It was not on Friday the 13th. It's a big deal.

A more apt comparison is the Beirut bombing which happened the same day and had the same cause and probably perpetrators. Yes again its taken a back seat to Paris. Lebanon is Syria's neighbour. Paris is half a world away. Yet IsiS reached out and took over a hundred lives in Paris. If they can attack Paris, they can attack the UK and Germany etc. Is it a wonder that the western media gave priority to Paris or that the west has a greater appetite for the Paris story? If the purpose of such posts was to unite the world I would gladly accept them, instead to me they seem far more derisive in tone.

I have even seen people post about how they care about the Japanese tsunami which has taken a back seat! Again people so desperate to come across as morally superior they never took the time to learn the tsunami is 30 cm high and caused no major injuries or damage.

Now that is just the response of individual people on Facebook. Just as bad, no worse, have been the responses of some governments and NGOs. Before the dust of the explosions had settled the south African Palestinian solidarity group BDS sent a letter of condolences to the French people. They state they stand in solidarity with them and abhor all forms of 'extremism and barbarity‚ be it the extremism and barbarity of Netanyahu and Israel or that of ISIS and Boko Haram'. What started out as a letter of condolence just become a press briefing to attack Israel. A group which has hosted at my university a plane hijacker and failed suicide bomber would like to deplore terrorism? Jewish and Israeli interest groups have plaid the same card in reverse. Solidarity means respect, a minute of silence, attending funerals etc. It does not mean using tragedy to further politics.

I was reacting to the Beirut bombing not Syria.

I understand your point. Politicisation of tragedy is foul and does a disservice to all the victims. I have come across this as well. The Right-Wing party in my country used Islamic terror to further their own agenda, and then the centre-left party used Right wing terror to further theirs. Israel-Palestine is also a great example.

I understand the Western media reaction to Paris. its natural and in fact it should be centre stage now. But consider your point about global reach, the wave of xeno/Islamophobia that is arising right now and Lebanon. If all the attacks and respective death tolls of all countries/regions caused by this type of terrorism could be depicted fairly, the suffering of innocent people in the Middle East could have been something people in Europe could relate to more. Because at the end of things its innocent people dying everywhere.

[koehkont]

Cause, on 15 November 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

Tsundoku, on 15 November 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

It seems some people's attempts to remind the rest of us that Syria, Beirut etc are also suffering terribly have met with vitriolic responses on social media. For the life of me I cannot see why anyone would get angry just because someone has said "Yes, this is terrible, but so is this, and this ..."

http://www.news.com....q-1227609927184

There is nothing wrong with saying Syrians lives matter as much as French lives. That's not what I feel most of theses posts are really about. Most of the posts I have see of FB come from a certain kind of person I know who are tripping over themselves to be seen as PC or at least some kind of morally superior. 'I care about not just the French but also about Syria, I am better than you' is how many of those posts come across to me. Syria has been the victim of a civil war and ISIS for 3 years and longer (if you don't know its happening there is something wrong with you). Is it really such a surprise that a terrorist attack in Paris of all places with over a hundred casualties is breaking news. We think of Europe and Paris as safe. It was not on Friday the 13th. It's a big deal.

I think you have one of the major point there. We care because they attacked our safety. This could happen to me now, and that's bad because it is concerning me and I'm quite fond of myself. Events in another culture or country feel less dangerous because we can't imagine that it happens in our own environment. But this is different. You might think, well I have been to Paris, what if I go there again? And what about London or Berlin? Can I still go there if I want? I believe that the brain is only capable of really deeply caring about no more than a select group of people say between 10 and 20, and even then if a gun was put to your head and you'd have to choose which one was to die, you'd new the answer within 2 seconds. Part of our stronger reaction to the Paris victims than to other victims is because it happened in the social structure that we think ourselves a part of. I am not saying it is wrong, it is just the way we are wired. We want to survive and to do that knowledge and control of your environment is a large factor. This feeling of shock at such an attack is (sub)consciously amplified by the realisation that is coming close now. We are on edge because the self might be involved now. That is why all the hate and islamofobic thoughts mentioned earlier are finding fertile soil. Looking from the workings of our brain and nature this seems logical, but you have to compensate your reaction by knowing this. Closing all borders and putting them somewhere we we can't see them is not a solution. Open the borders and embrace the refugees and Islam and in that embrace smother the extremists and the hate.