[Madness]

Morgoth, on 30 July 2016 - 07:35 AM, said:

I found the summary at the start of the book was enough for me to catch up. I don't really want to re-read books for the most part.

I very much liked the book, though I have to admit the horror of Bakker's world is getting a little much at times. When the last book is out I think I can go the rest of my life without reading about throbbing phalluses and incessant rutting.

Lol - indeed. I've never been a big horror fan so I can't really compare but Bakker's writing does seem to come with a very Lovecraftian unease.

Abyss, on 30 July 2016 - 08:29 AM, said:

Madness, on 29 July 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

Smart, Cause .

I think any reader who dove into TGO without rereading TJE and WLW, especially after a five-year publication gap, did themselves and the narrative a disservice. Plus, the way I see it, WLW/TGO are basically TWP of TAE.
...

Otoh are those who didnt really love EYE or WHITE but want to continue the story without reliving the sloggiest slog of slogs.

That's very true - and as Morgoth mentioned there is a "What Has Come Before" section. I'm always interested in the variety of critiques which come from ongoing readers - the particular distinction of tedium which bothers different individuals rarely seems to have much overlap.

I do feel like TGO, specifically, has to rely more on the pieces established through the series than any other so far and unlike a trilogy, the third book in a tetralogy seems like it has to endure greater scrutiny than other arrangements of stories.

[Morgoth]

Oh I agree with that, but I very much appreciated not encountering summaries throughout the book. Butcher prefers that method and it gets tedious fast.

[amphibian]

Butcher stopped doing that after the Blue Beetle fell apart (which took a very long time, admittedly).

[Cause]

The slog of Slogs has slowed my re-read quite a bit during the WLW. My desire to read TGO is growing though!

If I can request one spoiler though. Is it ever explained why the Swayal were taught the Gnosis but the rest of the anagogic schools seemingly were not? I could understand perhaps that the adults are too old to change but the fresh recruits? Or why is not every new school recruit not just given to the mandate?

[Madness]

It's not a spoiler for TGO, Cause.

Somewhere in WLW - I want to say at the upcoming battle of Ursulor, depending on where you are in your reread - there's one-liner about how Kellhus only convinced the Anagogic Schools to join him because he promised them the Gnosis after the Ordeal.

[Cause]

Madness, on 01 August 2016 - 06:44 PM, said:

It's not a spoiler for TGO, Cause.

Somewhere in WLW - I want to say at the upcoming battle of Ursulor, depending on where you are in your reread - there's one-liner about how Kellhus only convinced the Anagogic Schools to join him because he promised them the Gnosis after the Ordeal.

Thanks

Bizarre. that question has always bothered me. I must have missed the line on my original read. The answer confuses me even more though. I thought Kellhus had control of the schools because he basically promised them salvation, he changed the world and sorcerers are now esteemed rather then despised. I thought they all loved him! I could never understand why he never armed them more fully with the gnosis.

[Abyss]

He needed a carrrot to convince them to come along. The Swayal were more or less created by Kellhus and given the gnosis at the outset, it seems.
Amazingly the Mandate was ok with all of this, or at least didnt raise much fuss from what we know.

[Cause]

Its the mandates duty to spread the gnosis to fight against the second apocalypse. Still they don't have to be convinced. Seswataha does. Although Kellhus was able to bypass this defense. Either by convincing Seswatha or bypassing him in Akka. Still as far as anyone, the reader included, can tell Kellhus really is fighting the consult so I would think the mandate would be okay with it. Kellhus should have just mandated though that all of the Few found should be made to join the mandate. Serwa at least is semi mandate. She has the dreams. Not sure if all the Swayal witches do though. If they all do they could arguably literally be seen as to be a sister school to the mandate. The truth and horror of the dreams I would think would make an effective tool to control people. Not to mention the influence Seswatha seems to have. Its a fascinating aspect of the mandate. Did Seswatha survive death by putting his sol in the heart? Did he in a way escape damnation?

[Madness]

I think Kellhus' problems are problems of expediency. Having to run the gauntlet of a bunch of cultural and social prejudices, it very well might have been easier for Kellhus to get the Mandate (and all the other Schools) to tolerate a School of Witches, rather than share the Gnosis with those who have been trying to steal it from them for centuries. Bigotries die hard.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Madness, on 01 August 2016 - 06:44 PM, said:

It's not a spoiler for TGO, Cause.

Somewhere in WLW - I want to say at the upcoming battle of Ursulor, depending on where you are in your reread - there's one-liner about how Kellhus only convinced the Anagogic Schools to join him because he promised them the Gnosis after the Ordeal.

At least two mentions in TWLW:

"Mimara once told him that Kellhus had largely honoured the ancient Mandate monopoly on the Gnosis, granting the secret knowledge only to the witches, the Swayali, as both a promise and a goad for other Schools"

"Saccarees turned to Carindûsû and feared for the vacancy he glimpsed in the man's eyes. He bid his former rival to stand by his side, mouthing, "Let me show you what it is you shall win!" For nothing other than the Gnosis was the prize the Aspect-Emperor had offered the Anagogic Schools"

Why didn't he teach them all the Gnosis? Partly because Kellhus thinks the great ordeal's mages are already powerful enough to defeat the consult in magical battle. Maybe he wants them as fodder for chorae? He probably anticipates the possibility of some members of the Anagogic Schools turning on the great ordeal, and wants to make sure they can be handled by the other mages without causing too many casualties.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 03 August 2016 - 11:22 PM

[Abyss]

Good points. The Mandate is sworn to oppose the apocalypse, so once they accepted Kellhus he could probably do whatever he wanted.
The anagogic schools are just in it for the power. Which pretty much guarantees Kellhus will wipe them out once they are not useful.

[Cause]

Still no kindle version!

Now I know the pain of damnation! I will join the consultant and reduce this sphere to 144000

[End of Disc One]

Cause, on 04 August 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

Still no kindle version!

Now I know the pain of damnation! I will join the consultant and reduce this sphere to 144000

The Unholy Consultant...I like it.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Cause, on 04 August 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

Still no kindle version!

Now I know the pain of damnation! I will join the consultant and reduce this sphere to 144000

There is a Kindle version---but it may not be available in South Africa. There are, of course, ways...([...]...).

[Cause]

End of Disc One, on 04 August 2016 - 08:10 PM, said:

Cause, on 04 August 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

Still no kindle version!

Now I know the pain of damnation! I will join the consultant and reduce this sphere to 144000

The Unholy Consultant...I like it.

Advising you on damnation and the path to salvation call 0800-damned today.

[amphibian]

I finished this book last night. It is indeed Bakker's best work and it's wiiiiild. Stunning achievement in many ways.

[Abyss]

i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book.

i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book.

i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book.

i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book.

i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book.

i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will waohhh fuckit.

[Madness]

Cause, on 04 August 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

Still no kindle version!

Now I know the pain of damnation! I will join the consultant and reduce this sphere to 144000

Azath Vitr (D, on 04 August 2016 - 10:32 PM, said:

Cause, on 04 August 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

Still no kindle version!

Now I know the pain of damnation! I will join the consultant and reduce this sphere to 144000

There is a Kindle version---but it may not be available in South Africa. There are, of course, ways...([...]...).

Yeah, I feel like a number of readers at the Second Apocalypse have found ways to buy the kindle and nook releases through amazon.ca, amazon.com, or B&N in the states.

amphibian, on 05 August 2016 - 02:41 PM, said:

I finished this book last night. It is indeed Bakker's best work and it's wiiiiild. Stunning achievement in many ways.

Lol - I would love to hear thoughts, amphibian. Malazan/Bakker readers are probably most equipped to offer me greater insight.

Abyss, on 05 August 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book.

i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book.

i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book.

i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book.

i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book.

i will wait for the last book. i will wait for the last book. i will waohhh fuckit.

Lol - did you succumb, Abyss?

Hopefully TUC will be forthcoming in less than a year .

This post has been edited by Madness: 06 August 2016 - 05:10 PM

[Cause]

Finally got it this weekend. It is done! I have much to say but am on my phone so for now I will simply say

Spoiler

I feel that there is a huge disconnect with how vulnerable the Empire seemed in TJE and WLW to how solid it seemed in the TGO. Instead of riots and sedition across the three seas we have soldiers rallying to defend Momemm against a hated enemy. It seems that the only real threat was the white luck Warrior.

There is a pole on a head behind you? Onkiss? Meaning and significance unclear. I have been singing the phrase to myself for hours though. Very catch tune

Nonmen!

Helmet is an amazing literary tool!

Cnauir!

What is happening with proyas. He seems to want to make him like a dunyain. Take away his faith. Make a nonbeliever. A man who will make the decision needed to accomplish the mission. Why? Why proyas? Why not his son? Current thought is he wants a flawed worldborn dunyain like man. Kellhus needs someone else to decide if the consult is right or wrong. Genocide is evil but damnation is evil too and the more we learn the more it seems there is hell but no heaven.

Did Achamian see the inverse fire in his dream?

[Madness]

Cause, on 06 August 2016 - 09:52 PM, said:

Finally got it this weekend. It is done! I have much to say but am on my phone so for now I will simply say

...

Lol - awesome, Cause.

If you ever feel the compulsion, Second Apocalypse has a variety of speculation to help you tease out the ambiguities as Bakker writes them .

This post has been edited by Madness: 07 August 2016 - 05:15 PM