[Cause]

Abyss, on 23 November 2017 - 07:55 PM, said:

There is a sandwich on a pole behind you.

There is a head on a hole behind you can be sung to almost any tune. Got that stuck in my head for weaks

[Esa1996]

Madness, on 23 November 2017 - 01:40 AM, said:

What's the criticism of "late-era Erikson?"

His writing style ever since Reaper's Gale has become increasingly philosophic. I started to bug me already in TTH, especially in that one sequence where there is something like five pages of philosophical nonsense before it all ends with "In the end he could draw no other conclusion than that heads roll downhill" or something similar. Now I agree, that's kinda funny once you push past those first five pages, but as it went on in DOD, TCG, FOD and FOL becoming more winded and less funny with each book, it just went way beyond the line. The only reason I forced myself to read FOL was that I'd already started the trilogy with FOD and it's a part of the Malazan Universe. Actually reading the book was a pain in the ass due to how much of it was purely focused on philosophical rambling.

This post has been edited by Esa1996: 21 December 2017 - 01:24 PM

[Mentalist]

Esa1996, on 21 December 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

Madness, on 23 November 2017 - 01:40 AM, said:

What's the criticism of "late-era Erikson?"

His writing style ever since Reaper's Gale has become increasingly philosophic. I started to bug me already in TTH, especially in that one sequence where there is something like five pages of philosophical nonsense before it all ends with "In the end he could draw no other conclusion than that heads roll downhill" or something similar. Now I agree, that's kinda funny once you push past those first five pages, but as it went on in DOD, TCG, FOD and FOL becoming more winded and less funny with each book, it just went way beyond the line. The only reason I forced myself to read FOL was that I'd already started the trilogy with FOD and it's a part of the Malazan Universe. Actually reading the book was a pain in the ass due to how much of it was purely focused on philosophical rambling.

The ramblings were there even earlier. TBH is probably my 2nd favorite Malaz book after MoI, but pretty much everyone in that book is a world-weary philosopher. But there SE balanced it out with a LOT of BS kick-ass action scenes. In later books, he tends to lose that balance somewhat (especially in TtH, which is extra-rambly due to Kruppe's narrative voicen

[Werthead]

The History of Earwa has now been updated through The Unholy Consult.

[Maark Abbott]

Well, I wasn't expecting Kelmomas to

Spoiler

turn out to be the No-God.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 11 April 2018 - 12:19 AM
Reason for edit: Spoiler blocks jic.

[Cause]

Maybe spoiler that?

Spoiler

Quite the mind fuck. You know something bad will happen, because he promised a 3rd trilogy which will need a plot but its really hard to see the way forward from here. The sranc number in the billions, the might of the three seas (particularly the sorcerers seem to have been wiped out) the empire is collapsing and the no god now has 4 dunyain to help.

Deus ex machine seems like the only option except the no god locks gods out of the world.

[End of Disc One]

Cause, on 10 April 2018 - 08:41 AM, said:

Maybe spoiler that?

Paging Abyss. I know this is a spoiler thread, but there are spoilers and then there are SPOILERS.

[Werthead]

Cause, on 10 April 2018 - 08:41 AM, said:

Maybe spoiler that?

Spoiler

Quite the mind fuck. You know something bad will happen, because he promised a 3rd trilogy which will need a plot but its really hard to see the way forward from here. The sranc number in the billions, the might of the three seas (particularly the sorcerers seem to have been wiped out) the empire is collapsing and the no god now has 4 dunyain to help.

Deus ex machine seems like the only option except the no god locks gods out of the world.

Not quite the case:

Spoiler

There were two Sranc Hordes. The first Horde was obliterated to a Srance by the nuclear weapon at Dagliash. The second Horde was not destroyed, but it was massively damaged first by Kellhus's uber-magic firestorm assault and then lasering one of the Horns on top of their heads, not to mention the damage the Ordeal itself did. There's still tens or possibly hundreds of thousands of Sranc left, but not millions as there were before. Their numbers are probably less than during Apocalypse 1.0, and humanity did enough damage to the Sranc during the war to force the No-God himself to give battle at Mengedda, leading to his defeat.

Zeum is still in play and unengaged, the Three Seas are in trouble but there's still millions of potential fighting men there (Bakker put the population of the Three Seas alone - not counting Zeum - as 75 million, so the Ordeal probably took around 40-45% of their total potential military force with them but left more behind) and the Xiuhanniani may well show up at some point. The loss of the sorcerers, particularly the Gnost-wielders almost being completely wiped out - is a much bigger problem. Zeum's sorcerers are certainly a threat, but they're a bit rubbish compared to the other schools.

The elements in play in the third trilogy will be: Team Akka, potentially Serwa and Kayutas (Kayutas definitely survived, Serwa is up in the air), the Heron Spear and the Sun Lance, the Scylvendi now under Moneghus's command, what's left of the Nonmen of Ishterebinth, Aurax and the Judging Eye. The WHAT DO YOU SEE? question seems to be begging for the Judging Eye to be turned on the Carapace, maybe under a different circumstance.

[Abyss]

Spoiler above dealt with, just in case.

I really, REALLY hope we get that third trilo.

[Mentalist]

Werthead, on 10 April 2018 - 05:27 PM, said:

Cause, on 10 April 2018 - 08:41 AM, said:

Maybe spoiler that?

Spoiler

Quite the mind fuck. You know something bad will happen, because he promised a 3rd trilogy which will need a plot but its really hard to see the way forward from here. The sranc number in the billions, the might of the three seas (particularly the sorcerers seem to have been wiped out) the empire is collapsing and the no god now has 4 dunyain to help.

Deus ex machine seems like the only option except the no god locks gods out of the world.

Not quite the case:

Spoiler

There were two Sranc Hordes. The first Horde was obliterated to a Srance by the nuclear weapon at Dagliash. The second Horde was not destroyed, but it was massively damaged first by Kellhus's uber-magic firestorm assault and then lasering one of the Horns on top of their heads, not to mention the damage the Ordeal itself did. There's still tens or possibly hundreds of thousands of Sranc left, but not millions as there were before. Their numbers are probably less than during Apocalypse 1.0, and humanity did enough damage to the Sranc during the war to force the No-God himself to give battle at Mengedda, leading to his defeat.

Zeum is still in play and unengaged, the Three Seas are in trouble but there's still millions of potential fighting men there (Bakker put the population of the Three Seas alone - not counting Zeum - as 75 million, so the Ordeal probably took around 40-45% of their total potential military force with them but left more behind) and the Xiuhanniani may well show up at some point. The loss of the sorcerers, particularly the Gnost-wielders almost being completely wiped out - is a much bigger problem. Zeum's sorcerers are certainly a threat, but they're a bit rubbish compared to the other schools.

The elements in play in the third trilogy will be: Team Akka, potentially Serwa and Kayutas (Kayutas definitely survived, Serwa is up in the air), the Heron Spear and the Sun Lance, the Scylvendi now under Moneghus's command, what's left of the Nonmen of Ishterebinth, Aurax and the Judging Eye. The WHAT DO YOU SEE? question seems to be begging for the Judging Eye to be turned on the Carapace, maybe under a different circumstance.

re: Zeum

Spoiler

isn't there a demonic assassin from Kellhus heading their way to assassinate the King and plunge the nation into chaos?

[Maark Abbott]

When there's a discussion thread with spoilers but your spoiler gets spoilered because it's a hecking spoiler. Feelsbaman.

[Cause]

Werthead, on 10 April 2018 - 05:27 PM, said:

Cause, on 10 April 2018 - 08:41 AM, said:

Maybe spoiler that?

Spoiler

Quite the mind fuck. You know something bad will happen, because he promised a 3rd trilogy which will need a plot but its really hard to see the way forward from here. The sranc number in the billions, the might of the three seas (particularly the sorcerers seem to have been wiped out) the empire is collapsing and the no god now has 4 dunyain to help.

Deus ex machine seems like the only option except the no god locks gods out of the world.

Not quite the case:

Spoiler

There were two Sranc Hordes. The first Horde was obliterated to a Srance by the nuclear weapon at Dagliash. The second Horde was not destroyed, but it was massively damaged first by Kellhus's uber-magic firestorm assault and then lasering one of the Horns on top of their heads, not to mention the damage the Ordeal itself did. There's still tens or possibly hundreds of thousands of Sranc left, but not millions as there were before. Their numbers are probably less than during Apocalypse 1.0, and humanity did enough damage to the Sranc during the war to force the No-God himself to give battle at Mengedda, leading to his defeat.

Zeum is still in play and unengaged, the Three Seas are in trouble but there's still millions of potential fighting men there (Bakker put the population of the Three Seas alone - not counting Zeum - as 75 million, so the Ordeal probably took around 40-45% of their total potential military force with them but left more behind) and the Xiuhanniani may well show up at some point. The loss of the sorcerers, particularly the Gnost-wielders almost being completely wiped out - is a much bigger problem. Zeum's sorcerers are certainly a threat, but they're a bit rubbish compared to the other schools.

The elements in play in the third trilogy will be: Team Akka, potentially Serwa and Kayutas (Kayutas definitely survived, Serwa is up in the air), the Heron Spear and the Sun Lance, the Scylvendi now under Moneghus's command, what's left of the Nonmen of Ishterebinth, Aurax and the Judging Eye. The WHAT DO YOU SEE? question seems to be begging for the Judging Eye to be turned on the Carapace, maybe under a different circumstance.

Spoiler

My interpretation of horde 1 and 2 is that they still only consisted of a small part of the global sranc population. The great ordeal acted as a plough that pushed the sranc in their path away until they formed a horde and mobbed but their are still sranc hundreds of miles away who don't even know it exists. The No God however is able to activate a mind meld with all the weapon races and control them. If his effect is world wide then I would think he could summon millions more sranc. That was my take on it anyway. The problem might be one of logistics in how does he summon a horde of locusts who don't farm to get all the way south to the three seas. However, we are told the sranc can basically survive on eating worms from the soil.

Zeum is still in play and I think their fetis sorcery may be both worse and better than anagogic. It seems their reliance on fetishes makes them slower and less nimble but the effects may be bigger and longer lasting. The shield the one zuem sorcerer made with a goblet or something seemed powerful anyway if I recall. The sword dancers and their army are possibly a significant force, maybe the equal of the great ordeal. who really knows.

Will the three seas unite or fracture? The no god can be felt everywhere so that is quite a goad to action but it also means panick. The empire was already fracturing.

The scylvendi could be a significant force, as could possibly possessed Cnauir (which is also significant because whatever happened to him happened post no god). I forget what happened to him, alive or dead.

Aslo my interpretation of Megendaga (sp?) is that the no god showed up not because he had to but because victory seemed so assured. The heron spear was a hail mary.

I suppose another hail mary in the form of a team akka special ops strike could be possible but that does not seem like an entire trilogy.

I hope the 3rd trilogy gets made! I hope if he struggles to find a publisher he does try the kickstarter route or something similar. Its crazy to me that he is such a starving artist where lesser talents are apparently not.

This post has been edited by Cause: 11 April 2018 - 08:23 AM

[Abyss]

The thing is, this series is very very different from most things out there in sffland. It's dark, grim even. It waxes philosophical a LOT. It asks readers to think. And it does these things to a degree that at times surpasses SE for sheer complexity.

The magic is hard to understand. The elves are pretty fucked up. The 'orcs' run around naked and fuck everything. Actually, so do the 'elves'. The 'heroes' are all fairly terrible people some or all of the time. Women's lives are just shit.
And if you've read the series you know there's more to it than all that, but a lot of readers don't make it that far. By the sixth time Cnaiur is working out his daddy and sexual identity issues by raping Serwe while Kellhus hangs out by the fire back in book 2 of the first trilo, a whole lot of readers have bailed. And those are the ones who didn't freak out over not understanding the difference between gnostic and anagogic sorcery.


...so yeah, the contingent of fantasy fans who are spending dollars on this is pretty slim, unfortunately.

[Mentalist]

To be fair, I hung around for the pseudo-firt Crusade epic battles.

And to see Kellhus die, ofc.

But I see your point: the series is certainly even less "mainstream" than SE.

[acesn8s]

The sorcery kept me going through the first book. The depth of the story carried me all the way through the slog.

[Maark Abbott]

Abyss, on 11 April 2018 - 03:32 PM, said:

The thing is, this series is very very different from most things out there in sffland. It's dark, grim even. It waxes philosophical a LOT. It asks readers to think. And it does these things to a degree that at times surpasses SE for sheer complexity.

The magic is hard to understand. The elves are pretty fucked up. The 'orcs' run around naked and fuck everything. Actually, so do the 'elves'. The 'heroes' are all fairly terrible people some or all of the time. Women's lives are just shit.
And if you've read the series you know there's more to it than all that, but a lot of readers don't make it that far. By the sixth time Cnaiur is working out his daddy and sexual identity issues by raping Serwe while Kellhus hangs out by the fire back in book 2 of the first trilo, a whole lot of readers have bailed. And those are the ones who didn't freak out over not understanding the difference between gnostic and anagogic sorcery.


...so yeah, the contingent of fantasy fans who are spending dollars on this is pretty slim, unfortunately.

Alas, the abnegation of alacrity has winnowed the Ordeal down to but a blessed few. That said those who bail on Bakker are weepers and we should not mourn their ilk.

As an aside Bakker was one of my big inspirations for writing characters. May explain why mine are so horrid.

I'd agree on the comment of forcing readers to think. That's why I like Bakker's stuff so much. At times, TUC took Malazan like [insert lewd Inchoroi joke here]. God, what a ride.

acesn8s, on 11 April 2018 - 05:33 PM, said:

The sorcery kept me going through the first book. The depth of the story carried me all the way through the slog.

N O W E E P E R S

[Cause]

Abyss, on 11 April 2018 - 03:32 PM, said:

The thing is, this series is very very different from most things out there in sffland. It's dark, grim even. It waxes philosophical a LOT. It asks readers to think. And it does these things to a degree that at times surpasses SE for sheer complexity.

I find Eriksons later novels to be almost impenetrable due to the sheer scale of the philosophizing which often seems tangential to the book itself. I find Bakker much better in this regard in that while he waxes philosophical a lot too I can still see the connections to his plot and see how they work together.

The magic system that bakker has created is I think my favorite in all fantasy so far. Really clever. He has created one that makes sense, is completely consistent and logical for how his world works and yet its still magic and in many ways an unknowable mystery not a video game or science magic like Sanderson creates (his magic systems are great but often don't feel wondrous). I would literally pay bakker money right now to have him write or just talk about appopretic sorcery.

I must needs have the third trilogy and I will pay him the $$ directly to help get it done!

[Abyss]

Cause, on 12 April 2018 - 07:25 AM, said:

Abyss, on 11 April 2018 - 03:32 PM, said:

The thing is, this series is very very different from most things out there in sffland. It's dark, grim even. It waxes philosophical a LOT. It asks readers to think. And it does these things to a degree that at times surpasses SE for sheer complexity.

I find Eriksons later novels to be almost impenetrable due to the sheer scale of the philosophizing which often seems tangential to the book itself. I find Bakker much better in this regard in that while he waxes philosophical a lot too I can still see the connections to his plot and see how they work together.

The magic system that bakker has created is I think my favorite in all fantasy so far. Really clever. He has created one that makes sense, is completely consistent and logical for how his world works and yet its still magic and in many ways an unknowable mystery not a video game or science magic like Sanderson creates (his magic systems are great but often don't feel wondrous). I would literally pay bakker money right now to have him write or just talk about appopretic sorcery.

I must needs have the third trilogy and I will pay him the $ directly to help get it done!

I'm with you there, tho when i reread what i posted upthread...

Quote

... By the sixth time Cnaiur is working out his daddy and sexual identity issues by raping Serwe while Kellhus hangs out by the fire back in book 2 of the first trilo...

... i have to wonder how any author who goes THAT dark can expect to succeed, even acknowledging how that specific situation gets turned against Cnaiur and sort of empowers Serwe.... ...more or less... tho what happens later is... gah.

So, there's that.

[Maark Abbott]

Oh also I'm kinda confident Aurang's not dead. It'd be a waste if he was.

[Puck]

Abyss, on 12 April 2018 - 03:32 PM, said:

Cause, on 12 April 2018 - 07:25 AM, said:

Abyss, on 11 April 2018 - 03:32 PM, said:

The thing is, this series is very very different from most things out there in sffland. It's dark, grim even. It waxes philosophical a LOT. It asks readers to think. And it does these things to a degree that at times surpasses SE for sheer complexity.

I find Eriksons later novels to be almost impenetrable due to the sheer scale of the philosophizing which often seems tangential to the book itself. I find Bakker much better in this regard in that while he waxes philosophical a lot too I can still see the connections to his plot and see how they work together.

The magic system that bakker has created is I think my favorite in all fantasy so far. Really clever. He has created one that makes sense, is completely consistent and logical for how his world works and yet its still magic and in many ways an unknowable mystery not a video game or science magic like Sanderson creates (his magic systems are great but often don't feel wondrous). I would literally pay bakker money right now to have him write or just talk about appopretic sorcery.

I must needs have the third trilogy and I will pay him the $ directly to help get it done!

I'm with you there, tho when i reread what i posted upthread...

And you have my axe.. uh, I mean money.. too.

I need more Bakker material in my life, I'll go crazy without his quality writing otherwise and I'm not even kidding.