[pat5150]

For those who haven't picked it up yet, The Unholy Consult is 1.99$ on Kindle (US only).

[End of Disc One]

Hocknose, on 19 September 2017 - 08:18 AM, said:

End of Disc One, on 18 September 2017 - 05:37 PM, said:

This book was so good but the AMA Bakker did potentially makes it worse. I don't know if he was just fucking with us, but I recommend not reading it and forming your own conclusions about the ending.

I'm still thinking about this book and the ending a week later. Loved it.

Which part of the ending are you specifically referring to?

Spoiler

The Golden Room. What was really going on with Kellhus and Ajokli, and what Kellhus' goal was. The way Bakker explained it in his AMA makes it much less interesting than how I and many other interpreted it.

[Mentalist]

Andorion, on 31 August 2017 - 02:40 AM, said:

Mentalist, on 30 August 2017 - 04:17 PM, said:

Andorion, on 30 August 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

So, I finished this book.

WTF just happened?

Lots of questions:

1. Why didn't Kelhus have a navy? Would it not have been far more useful to have a large navy with accompanying mages which would sail up the coast, creating supply dumps, and then would ferry the army across the Leash? They would have mostly avoided the Horde, and the whole "Eat Sranc - go crazy - indulge in a rape and cannibalism spree" would have been unnecessary. Kelhys had plenty of time, why not do this?

2. Why did Kelhus go back to get Esmenet and the kid? I never really understood his actual feelings towards Esmenet. And why did he not kill the kid? Even if he could not guess what the kid was upto, he was a distraction.

3. So was Akka's entire role travelling around and being grumpy? Also was Mimara's entire role just to get a child? Her Judging Eye did not really do a lot at crucial times.

4. So the Scylvendi's plan was to ambush Kelhus at Golgoterrath? Or was that a later innovation? Was his main plan to find Ishual?

5. How did Kelmomas trigger the No God? Because he was Kelhus' son?

1) navy would involve conquering Zeum, and have its own logistical problems, given he was on a tight schedule. Also, a fleet approaching Golgoterath would be a sitting duck for Consul magic strikes (the glossary refers to a failed Nonmen naval attack way back when)

It's also important to keep in mind that all of Kellhus' subjects would only be used to sailing the 3 seas- which would leave them totally unprepared for sailing the ocean, around potentially hostile Zeum.

Oh, and any supply depots along the coast north of Zeum but south of the Nonmen lands would be in Sranc-infested mountains and would serve as a lodestone for Sranc attacks.

2) Kellhus appears to "love" Esmi (in his crazy fashion). It's also possible he felt he still needed her "pure faith" as anti-God shield. He didn't kill Kel, b/c Esmi would never forgive him that.

3) Akka was busy having visions that eventually revealed the big secret-

Spoiler

Anasurimbor's "soul" (or genes, if we stick to material?) were needed to trigger the No-God

Mimara's Judging Eye revealed the ultimate failure of the Ordeal. Plus, it kept them alive in the mines of Moria Cil-Aujas, and kept her alive in Sauglish. As a plot device, it did enough.

4) Cnaiur wanted to kill Kellhus. Everything else was secondary.

5) see the spoilers in 3. The mechanism isn't really clear, but they explicitly say they needed Anasurimbor all along.

Kellhus had a very long time to prepare. Given the resources at his disposal as well as his own abilities I think he could have brought Zeum into the fold. Also a naval expedition could have been defended by the Mandate. He could have infiltrated Ishtebirinth and brought over the Quya earlier as well.

How can a Dunyain love anyone?

The thing about Akka and Mimara is that while they see a lot of things, they rarely ever do anything about these things. Its very frustrating.

BTW was the first NG destroyed by a Heron Spear beam zapping the Carapace and destroying the old Anasurimbor traces? Where is the Heron Spear even? Given its power and reputation, why didn't Kellhus devote more resources to finding it?

Kellhus was led to believe he's on a tight deadline. Zeum is vaster then all of 3 seas nations combined. Yeah, their magic is pretty crap, but the logistics of actually subjugating that many people to the point of making them love Kellhus (keep in mind, unlike the somewhat monotheistic 3 Seas where Kellhus could just replace himself as the sole head of the pantheon, Zeumi continue to rever their ancestors first and foremost, so it'd be much more difficult to reliably convince most of the vast population that Kellhus is more relevant to them then their own flesh and blood progenitors.

I dunno, I always looked at this as a logistical challenge, and it seemed perfectly legit that Zeum would just take "too long"

The Heron Spear was kept by the Ceneians, and then (I think) by the Nansurians as a relic in a palace/museum somewhere. Sometime before the PoN it was stolen/disaapeared (presumably the Consult recovered it), but no one except the Mandate really cared.

Yeah, Kellhus loving Esmi doesn't add up (then again, see: "insane from TTT" ), so him needing her as the "god-shield of innocence" and not hating him is a more logical explanation.

[Abyss]

Just Finished THE UNHOLY CONSULT.

Mind.

Blown.


I'll backtrack upthread and jump into some discussions, but a few thoughts off the bloody shredded, grime ladden, bodily fluid stained cuff...

SPOILERS SPOILERS
UNBLOCKED GRIMMY PUTRID SPOILERS
FOR THE ENTIRE SERIES

SPOILERS

THE SHORTEST SPOILERS

SELF-AWARE SPOILERS

MUTILATED BURNT CRISPY SEMI-DIGESTED

REPEATEDLY PENETRATED SPOILERS


SPOILERS

EW THAT WAS GROSS



SPOILERS



- the runup to the attack on Golgotterath was brutal. At times it felt too long by far, other times entirely in keeping with the tone and pace of the series.

- the eating/raping/whatevering of the Scalded was just... just... that was probably the single most disturbing thing in the entire series, and that's saying A LOT.

- no, seriously, that was just fucked up.

- And moreso because Proyas did it on Kelhus' direction, and everything else at his prompt, and then became the scapegoat for it all.

- Cnaiur.... i love this character so so much. Always have. he's so fucked up and noble and brilliant and a victim and murdering monster all at once, it's just great. It was far from a surprise when he showed up back in ORDEAL, but this book took him over the top... I enjoyed his turn as the Chief of Chiefs, his dealings with his long lost son Anasurimbur Moenghus, and then that last twist, putting Mo in charge of the Scylvendi and then walking right smack into the Horde... and apparently being possessed by Ajokli in the process. Damn. That was a storm of a character arc.

- Moenghus... I wasn't expecting Mo to have a pov storyline, but brief as it was, i enjoyed the way it wove out of Sorweel and Serwa's and into Cnaiur's. He did sort of lose some of his effectiveness along the way tho. We've known who his parents were since ASPECT, but were led to believe he was this feared hulking warrior with a serious dose of Anasurimbur brains... then he spent ORDEAL fucking his adopted sister and UNHOLY whining about said sister, then sitting around in chains expecting to die. His few moments of standing up to Cnaiur were fairly ineffective, tho he did show more brains dealing with the Serwe/skinspy. If the next series gets written, i hope we see more of Mo'.

- Have i mentioned how fucked up the Scalded thing was?

- Sorweel... after how much i enjoyed his adventure among the Nonmen in Ordeal, his swing back to almost-victim/lurking assassin in this book was a bit of a letdown... until he became the next White Luck Warrior. Did NOT see that coming (pun intended. ew.).

- Kelmomas... oh Kel you little shit. You got what you had coming to you and more. Too bad yuo sort of maybe destroyed the world in the process. Still, i have always enjoyed Kel's plotlines... they were wonderfully warped and insane and displayed just how messed up Kelhus and Esmi's kids really were. His shift from 'kill daddy kill daddly' to 'ok make myself daddy's favorite' was believeable, and the way it fed into him taking out White Luck Sorweel made sense, as did what happened next... we already knew he was outside of the sight of gods somehow. That logically led to him messing the White Luck's assassination (again)... and then distracting Kelhus so that the Dunyain Consult took him out. And then he gets thrown in the NoGod coffin and, i dunno what happened but it 'sounded' gross and yet i was ok with that.

- I really really liked the twist with the Consult, from Inchoroi to Nonmen to corrupted humans to holy shit five surviving Dunyain. That made perfect sense, flowed logically from the whole story, and was nicely done. I'm not certain i bought them being pro-NoGod-wiping-out-humanity ...it just didn't seem very Dunyain... but there was probably a corrupting influence at work there.

- Kelhus... dear gods what a great, brilliant, hateful bastard of a character Bakker created with Kelhus. His part in the battle... holding off the Horde alone, confronting the Inchoi and Nonmen, showing the extent of his manipulations to bring the Ordeal to this point (the entire frikkin Empire was a disposeable tool... wow). His ultimate plan.. to dominate Hell itself... was exactly what one would expect from him. The Ajokli possession revelation was almost a dissappointment at that point. Almost... i still liked the twist that a god had found a way to subvert Kelhus after all, despite his insistence that he was smarter than them all. And i can't help but wonder whether even his possession and saltiness were something he planned for... as in needed a way to send his soul to Hell and dying seemed like the best way to do it. Because he's Kelhus, that's why.

- Serwa... her turn as a pov character was a bit out of nowhere. I didn't really feel like i knew her well enough to buy her epic hero turn. Yes, taking out 100 choroi armed Ur-Sranc and a Wraku was very impressive and fun to read. I just wish it was a character i was more invested in doing it.

- Achamian... Akka spent most of the second quad-tri-logy being a whiny old man in an icky relationship with his ex-wife's daughter. Other than the periodic Seswatha revelations and taking out a Wraku with Niljiccas back in WHITE, i have not enjoyed his plotlines. That said, maybe because i have always loved Esmi as a character, the reunion between Akka, Mimara and Esmi, the birth of Mimara's baby, their run to Golgotterath, and subsequent escape were all enjoyable to read, and damn if i didn't get a kick out of Akka pulling his shit together, finaly, specifically because The Second Apocalypse had just started. Another interesting point for the next series if we get to see it... Akka is probably the most senior and powerful surviving Schoolman and possibly the only Mandate/Sisyaral still connected to Seswatha.

- Malawhatzizface... for a character who spent the entire book as a severed head dangling from Kelhus' belt, i enjoyed his perspective. ... hey was that a pun?


All of which is to say, i enjoyed this book a lot and really really hope Bakker gets to write more in this world.





.......maybee with just a tiny bit less eating and raping burn victims.....

[Abyss]

Mentalist, on 22 September 2017 - 10:04 AM, said:

Kellhus was led to believe he's on a tight deadline. Zeum is vaster then all of 3 seas nations combined. Yeah, their magic is pretty crap, but the logistics of actually subjugating that many people to the point of making them love Kellhus (keep in mind, unlike the somewhat monotheistic 3 Seas where Kellhus could just replace himself as the sole head of the pantheon, Zeumi continue to rever their ancestors first and foremost, so it'd be much more difficult to reliably convince most of the vast population that Kellhus is more relevant to them then their own flesh and blood progenitors.

Also, he had the opinion the crusade in the first trilo presented, which was Maithanet setting the stage for Kel's arrival. Zeum wasn't marching in a Holy War at the time.

Quote

Yeah, Kellhus loving Esmi doesn't add up (then again, see: "insane from TTT" ), so him needing her as the "god-shield of innocence" and not hating him is a more logical explanation.

Also wonder whether he saw her as a useful tool on multiple fronts, maintaining the Empire as long as possible, keeping his kids in line, and potentially rallying the Ordeal when he was not available.

[Cause]

SPOILERS!


METAPHYSICAL Spoilers!


TEKNE Spoilers!

Turn back or your eyes shall be salted!



What the hell did I just read, I kind of got spoiled that the Ordeal would fail but then again I also think that was a forgone conclusion given that the series was not ending. I hope to god Bakker just puts the next series on Kickstarter, he appears reluctant to do so but he apparently has problems making a living from these books. I want to fund him! He needs to write full time. We need to Nueropath him, cut out that part of Sanderson's brain that maid him a living typewriter and implant it in Bakker.

Abyss, on 25 September 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

Just Finished THE UNHOLY CONSULT.
- the runup to the attack on Golgotterath was brutal. At times it felt too long by far, other times entirely in keeping with the tone and pace of the series.

The first 30% of the book is brutal. Brutal in what it covers but also brutally slow at times and brutally opaque. It reminded me of Late era Erikson and to me that is no longer a compliment. The first 30% of the book seems to take place entirely in the minds of characters. Nothing is described, nothing is described happening. Everything is only mentioned in how it effects the thoughts of the characters. It made it even more of a Slog of Slogs for me than even the judging eye. Took me a month to get back in the book but then I was rewarded!

Abyss, on 25 September 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

- the eating/raping/whatevering of the Scalded was just... just... that was probably the single most disturbing thing in the entire series, and that's saying A LOT.

Agreed, it was fucked up seeing the humans descend into human Sranc. Interesting that both Akka and Sorweel knew the reperucssions and I think Sorweel even seems to describe that their is a kind of cure but no further detail. I kinda even liked it how I could imagine how this was happening. The hormones or what have you in the Sranc meat could effect human physiology sure but I think Bakker took it to an extreme too far. We also know that Sranc brains are different from human brains and they have no impulse control for example.

Abyss, on 25 September 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

- And moreso because Proyas did it on Kelhus' direction, and everything else at his prompt, and then became the scapegoat for it all.

I honestly cant figure out if Kellhus always wanted to sacrifice Proyas or if this was an early sign of Ajokoli possession. He did seem to spare Proyas by tying a rope around his stomach but it did not seem to be to serve any purpose. It did not seem meant to manipulate Akka for example

Abyss, on 25 September 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

- Sorweel... after how much i enjoyed his adventure among the Nonmen in Ordeal, his swing back to almost-victim/lurking assassin in this book was a bit of a letdown... until he became the next White Luck Warrior. Did NOT see that coming (pun intended. ew.).

I was confused by this, when did he and how did he become the new whiteluck warrior. I know he decided to become an assassin again but when did he and how did he suddenly gain the white luck?

Abyss, on 25 September 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

- Kelmomas... oh Kel you little shit. You got what you had coming to you and more. Too bad yuo sort of maybe destroyed the world in the process. Still, i have always enjoyed Kel's plotlines... they were wonderfully warped and insane and displayed just how messed up Kelhus and Esmi's kids really were. His shift from 'kill daddy kill daddly' to 'ok make myself daddy's favorite' was believeable, and the way it fed into him taking out White Luck Sorweel made sense, as did what happened next... we already knew he was outside of the sight of gods somehow. That logically led to him messing the White Luck's assassination (again)... and then distracting Kelhus so that the Dunyain Consult took him out. And then he gets thrown in the NoGod coffin and, i dunno what happened but it 'sounded' gross and yet i was ok with that.

In the great ordeal I found most of his sections tedious to deal with. Crazy always is. Did not see this outcome though, at all. Even though he can't be seen by the gods I do find it amazing that he managed to short circuit not one but two white luck warriors. Originally I had believed that he had been blessed by the trickster god to be able to counter the white luck. I feel that mnay hints were given that Ajokoli could see what his siblings could not and so I thought he was acting to counter Yatwers influence. This now seems true and false at the same time. Speaking of, what the hell is up with their is a head on a pole behind you stuff now.

Abyss, on 25 September 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

- I really really liked the twist with the Consult, from Inchoroi to Nonmen to corrupted humans to holy shit five surviving Dunyain. That made perfect sense, flowed logically from the whole story, and was nicely done. I'm not certain i bought them being pro-NoGod-wiping-out-humanity ...it just didn't seem very Dunyain... but there was probably a corrupting influence at work there.

The inverse fire burns true. We seem to know be able to accept as given that damnation is true, the gods are dicks and an enternity of torment drives people insane and drives them to do anything possible to stop it. I can accept that the Dunyain would champion this cause. It is a logical move. I also think part of what Kellhus says is true, the landed in the Tekne and he landed in the gnosis. So the 5 mutilated could reasonable master their circumstances but see the Tekne and science and mundane reality as the answer to obtain the absolute. The original Dunyain abandoned sorcery after all for this reason. That said are they in charge? It could just be a dunyain trick, a small advantage to be gained by the 5 speaking in turns and forcing kellhus to split his focus 5 ways or it could indicate that shaureliatus (whatever his name is) was not undone but instead is possessing the 5 Dunyain. They would have free will to a degree the way Kellhus had free will despite being a puppet for Ajokoli. The Dunyain appear susceptible to possession. I agree with whoever said it above, Bakkers revelation that Kellhus was truly possessed seems a less interesting outcome than the one I had thought was going on.

Abyss, on 25 September 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

- Kelhus... dear gods what a great, brilliant, hateful bastard of a character Bakker created with Kelhus. His part in the battle... holding off the Horde alone, confronting the Inchoi and Nonmen, showing the extent of his manipulations to bring the Ordeal to this point (the entire frikkin Empire was a disposeable tool... wow). His ultimate plan.. to dominate Hell itself... was exactly what one would expect from him. The Ajokli possession revelation was almost a dissappointment at that point. Almost... i still liked the twist that a god had found a way to subvert Kelhus after all, despite his insistence that he was smarter than them all. And i can't help but wonder whether even his possession and saltiness were something he planned for... as in needed a way to send his soul to Hell and dying seemed like the best way to do it. Because he's Kelhus, that's why.

Its remarkable the way Bakker has created a character who is so supremely powerful, more so even than say a character like superman and yet his power feels earned and still always perhaps not enough given the scope of the challenge. I was loving this idea, that he had solved the problem by planning on conquering hell. Rather than killing the whole planet. The inverse fire burns true, but where you descend as Fodder, I descend as Hunger. My take as the scene unfolded was that Kellhus was not possessed by Ajokoli, rather he was becoming Ajokoli but since time in the outside is a different thing even though he was only born today he had always existed in the outside, breaking cause and effect. However when he then seemed to go insane and wanted to create hell on earth I realized shenanigans were happening. Its disappointing that Bakker has revealed that no Kellhus was indeed simply just possessed. Still again what are the ramifications of this? Kellhus calls himself an inverse profit who brought news of the real to the outside and that the gods were no longer so blind. If true why is Yatwer still trying to kill him? Cnauirs seeming possession by Ajokoli after going after Kellhus is also extremely significant becauase the No god was activated at this point. Does this not mean that the outside is sealed off, Ajokoli should not be able to interact. Or does it hint that Ajokoli is trapped on this side? If so that will be hugely significant.

Abyss, on 25 September 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

- Serwa... her turn as a pov character was a bit out of nowhere. I didn't really feel like i knew her well enough to buy her epic hero turn. Yes, taking out 100 choroi armed Ur-Sranc and a Wraku was very impressive and fun to read. I just wish it was a character i was more invested in doing it.

I'm now left wondering what the point of a lot of the characters and Arcs of this trilogy have been? Its been a great journey but I'm not sure now if all the pieces fit or were necessary? The non-men and Sorweel arc gave us a lot of background and I thoroughly enjoyed it but the Non-men arriving on the field didn't save the day. They hurt as much as they helped. We did learn that Quya are not to be fucked with though. Even Akkas ark and the entire judging eye seems to have come to naught. After refusing to give up her 2 chorae for 3 books, she abandons them unused in the last chapter. Was this always meant to be a red herring. I can only guess that she had a big role to come but the journey in this arc of the books feels wanting. I can only surmise that if the blind can recall the tone of god, and the gnosis recalls the word of god perhaps a judging eye combined with sorcery will be like the shamans of old. Sorcery without the mark at all and maybe able to accomplish amazing things. I suppose AkKas dream did tell us about Nau-Cyauti being the no god first. Interesting maybe that means that its the Seswatha line not the Anasurimbor line really that's important?



What else is their to discuss? Esmenet being saved despite being a prostitute seems significant. I have always thought we were supposed to understand that the mass unconsciousness of the living determines the rules of the outside. So the fact that she is loved throughout the three seas could be responsible. At the same time the judging eye implies an objective truth to damnation. I don't really know, but it seems significant for some reason.

Zeum (maybe the scylvendi)is now the only nation which is in tact and would seemingly be important to resist the no-god. Saying that nothing on the planet seems like it should be able to fight off the Sranc hordes and 4 dunyain sorcerers. On the other hand the Consult seems to not have any other cars left to play.

If the laser spear gun thing (not the heron spear apparently, someone better ask the scylvendi to find it ASAP) was capable of cutting the canted horn in half I find it difficult to believe that Kellhus with Metagnostic cants or hundreds of Quya mages in the past couldn't have melted Golgoterath to slag aeons ago.

The inchoroi themselves are a warrior race created in the vein of Sranc. They have souls however. So did at least one skin spy. Again this seems very significant. Did the race that created the inchoroi still exist. Why did the Ark fall in the first place? Seems like if they had landed in tact they could have easily sealed the world off with their Tekne power. If the progenitors still exist do we have to worry about a second ark arriving? I remember nearly throwing away the warrior prophet series away in disgust when I learnt the consult were space aliens. Seemed utterly ridiculous. Bakker however knew what he was doing. Makes the series very unique and the whole thing is fascinating.

I love that he incuroi suffer the same problem as the immortal Non-men, they cant contain all their memories so their personalities and skills change over the aeons. They cant recall how to use the Tekne properly. WTF is wrong with Aurax. Its poetic and also consistent

Edit- Why can Ajokoli control Chorae?

Will the apopretic magic ever be explained? Its by far the coolest branch of sorcery with no coverage. Makes me sad

Bizzare that Kellhus never made any magical contrivances, a sword, a shield a skinny mowing tank! The red ghouls magic armor is insanse!

His insistent use of the phrase death came swirling down now breaks my immersion everytime he uses it. He has created and abused his own cliché.

Abyss, on 26 September 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

Mentalist, on 22 September 2017 - 10:04 AM, said:

Yeah, Kellhus loving Esmi doesn't add up (then again, see: "insane from TTT" ), so him needing her as the "god-shield of innocence" and not hating him is a more logical explanation.

Also wonder whether he saw her as a useful tool on multiple fronts, maintaining the Empire as long as possible, keeping his kids in line, and potentially rallying the Ordeal when he was not available.

He mentions in the book at some point that even he does not know why he saves her. She is the one thing that comes from the darkness inside him. I wonder if this was on some level a sign of his possession. Bakker apparently says their were signs and kellhus knew something was wrong and getting worse the closer he got to Golgotera but I cant see the signs.

This post has been edited by Cause: 20 November 2017 - 01:11 PM

[Abyss]

Cause, on 20 November 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

SPOILERS!


METAPHYSICAL Spoilers!


TEKNE Spoilers!

Turn back or your eyes shall be salted!



What the hell did I just read, I kind of got spoiled that the Ordeal would fail but then again I also think that was a forgone conclusion given that the series was not ending. I hope to god Bakker just puts the next series on Kickstarter, he appears reluctant to do so but he apparently has problems making a living from these books. I want to fund him! He needs to write full time. We need to Nueropath him, cut out that part of Sanderson's brain that maid him a living typewriter and implant it in Bakker.

I have to veto anything detracting from Sanderson's brain, but we can totally do something involving Bakker, Kevin J Anderson or Christopher Golden's productivity-related lobes, a grapefruit spoon, and some duct tape. What could possibly go wrong?

Quote

Abyss, on 25 September 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

Just Finished THE UNHOLY CONSULT.
- the runup to the attack on Golgotterath was brutal. At times it felt too long by far, other times entirely in keeping with the tone and pace of the series.

The first 30% of the book is brutal. Brutal in what it covers but also brutally slow at times and brutally opaque. It reminded me of Late era Erikson and to me that is no longer a compliment. The first 30% of the book seems to take place entirely in the minds of characters. Nothing is described, nothing is described happening. Everything is only mentioned in how it effects the thoughts of the characters. It made it even more of a Slog of Slogs for me than even the judging eye. Took me a month to get back in the book but then I was rewarded!

Unlike the slog of slogs in WHITE LUCK, i felt like for the most part this trek had both point and consequences that added to the story, for the most part. The erosion of the Ordeal into something more and less than human was a massive writing undertaking, that had to be something different from the Crusade in the first trilo, bigger and darker. It was. I can quibble about how many pages it may have really required, but fuckit, Bakker did something sick and unique there in a fantasy lit context, something that at no point did i feel like i had read before. That carries a lot of weight for me.

Quote

Abyss, on 25 September 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

- the eating/raping/whatevering of the Scalded was just... just... that was probably the single most disturbing thing in the entire series, and that's saying A LOT.

Agreed, it was fucked up seeing the humans descend into human Sranc. Interesting that both Akka and Sorweel knew the reperucssions and I think Sorweel even seems to describe that their is a kind of cure but no further detail. I kinda even liked it how I could imagine how this was happening. The hormones or what have you in the Sranc meat could effect human physiology sure but I think Bakker took it to an extreme too far. We also know that Sranc brains are different from human brains and they have no impulse control for example.

Precisely... that was the moment the line between Ordealmen and Sranc was well and truly fucked, and compounded by who the victims were. Sranc eatfuck their own when they fall in battle... the Ordealmen had the Scalded marching along with them for days and then effectively turned them into a convenient meal delivery just before the final assault... basically even more evil than Sranc in that respect.

Quote

Abyss, on 25 September 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

- And moreso because Proyas did it on Kelhus' direction, and everything else at his prompt, and then became the scapegoat for it all.

I honestly cant figure out if Kellhus always wanted to sacrifice Proyas or if this was an early sign of Ajokoli possession. He did seem to spare Proyas by tying a rope around his stomach but it did not seem to be to serve any purpose. It did not seem meant to manipulate Akka for example

I have zero doubt Bakker intended to show Kel was always prepared to sacrifice Proyas, but remain uncertain whether it was always the plan.

Quote

Abyss, on 25 September 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

- Sorweel... after how much i enjoyed his adventure among the Nonmen in Ordeal, his swing back to almost-victim/lurking assassin in this book was a bit of a letdown... until he became the next White Luck Warrior. Did NOT see that coming (pun intended. ew.).

I was confused by this, when did he and how did he become the new whiteluck warrior. I know he decided to become an assassin again but when did he and how did he suddenly gain the white luck?

It happened during the rally after Sorweel rejoins the Ordeal. It was rather abrupt, one second he's speculating on EarthMommy goddess protecting him from Kel, the next he's all watching himself walk backwards into the sideways from where he was looking at where he was walking as he walked forward watching himself approach etc etc etc. The character os Sorweel effectively ceased to exist at that point.

Quote

Abyss, on 25 September 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

- Kelmomas... oh Kel you little shit. You got what you had coming to you and more. Too bad yuo sort of maybe destroyed the world in the process. Still, i have always enjoyed Kel's plotlines... they were wonderfully warped and insane and displayed just how messed up Kelhus and Esmi's kids really were. His shift from 'kill daddy kill daddly' to 'ok make myself daddy's favorite' was believeable, and the way it fed into him taking out White Luck Sorweel made sense, as did what happened next... we already knew he was outside of the sight of gods somehow. That logically led to him messing the White Luck's assassination (again)... and then distracting Kelhus so that the Dunyain Consult took him out. And then he gets thrown in the NoGod coffin and, i dunno what happened but it 'sounded' gross and yet i was ok with that.

In the great ordeal I found most of his sections tedious to deal with. Crazy always is. Did not see this outcome though, at all. Even though he can't be seen by the gods I do find it amazing that he managed to short circuit not one but two white luck warriors. Originally I had believed that he had been blessed by the trickster god to be able to counter the white luck. I feel that mnay hints were given that Ajokoli could see what his siblings could not and so I thought he was acting to counter Yatwers influence. This now seems true and false at the same time. Speaking of, what the hell is up with their is a head on a pole behind you stuff now.

Who else was always invisible to the Gods...?
Yep, the No-God, and therein lies the key, i think.
The original White Luck warrior was supposed to be an Ajokoli cultist, so i don't think Ajokoli was behind Kelmomas, i think he was foiled by him to ensure that Anasurimbor blood made it all the way to Golgotterath.

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Abyss, on 25 September 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

- I really really liked the twist with the Consult, from Inchoroi to Nonmen to corrupted humans to holy shit five surviving Dunyain. That made perfect sense, flowed logically from the whole story, and was nicely done. I'm not certain i bought them being pro-NoGod-wiping-out-humanity ...it just didn't seem very Dunyain... but there was probably a corrupting influence at work there.

The inverse fire burns true. We seem to know be able to accept as given that damnation is true, the gods are dicks and an enternity of torment drives people insane and drives them to do anything possible to stop it. I can accept that the Dunyain would champion this cause. It is a logical move. I also think part of what Kellhus says is true, the landed in the Tekne and he landed in the gnosis. So the 5 mutilated could reasonable master their circumstances but see the Tekne and science and mundane reality as the answer to obtain the absolute. The original Dunyain abandoned sorcery after all for this reason. That said are they in charge? It could just be a dunyain trick, a small advantage to be gained by the 5 speaking in turns and forcing kellhus to split his focus 5 ways or it could indicate that shaureliatus (whatever his name is) was not undone but instead is possessing the 5 Dunyain. They would have free will to a degree the way Kellhus had free will despite being a puppet for Ajokoli. The Dunyain appear susceptible to possession. I agree with whoever said it above, Bakkers revelation that Kellhus was truly possessed seems a less interesting outcome than the one I had thought was going on.

I don't have a problem with the possession... either it shows Kel was never as omnipotent as he pretended to be, or it will show he was playing an even longer and more insane game than we knew.
I did like the parity between the five mutilated and Kel both seeking different paths to avoid damnation having confirmed that it exists.

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Abyss, on 25 September 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

- Kelhus... dear gods what a great, brilliant, hateful bastard of a character Bakker created with Kelhus. His part in the battle... holding off the Horde alone, confronting the Inchoi and Nonmen, showing the extent of his manipulations to bring the Ordeal to this point (the entire frikkin Empire was a disposeable tool... wow). His ultimate plan.. to dominate Hell itself... was exactly what one would expect from him. The Ajokli possession revelation was almost a dissappointment at that point. Almost... i still liked the twist that a god had found a way to subvert Kelhus after all, despite his insistence that he was smarter than them all. And i can't help but wonder whether even his possession and saltiness were something he planned for... as in needed a way to send his soul to Hell and dying seemed like the best way to do it. Because he's Kelhus, that's why.

Its remarkable the way Bakker has created a character who is so supremely powerful, more so even than say a character like superman and yet his power feels earned and still always perhaps not enough given the scope of the challenge. I was loving this idea, that he had solved the problem by planning on conquering hell. Rather than killing the whole planet. The inverse fire burns true, but where you descend as Fodder, I descend as Hunger. My take as the scene unfolded was that Kellhus was not possessed by Ajokoli, rather he was becoming Ajokoli but since time in the outside is a different thing even though he was only born today he had always existed in the outside, breaking cause and effect. However when he then seemed to go insane and wanted to create hell on earth I realized shenanigans were happening. Its disappointing that Bakker has revealed that no Kellhus was indeed simply just possessed. Still again what are the ramifications of this? Kellhus calls himself an inverse profit who brought news of the real to the outside and that the gods were no longer so blind. If true why is Yatwer still trying to kill him? Cnauirs seeming possession by Ajokoli after going after Kellhus is also extremely significant becauase the No god was activated at this point. Does this not mean that the outside is sealed off, Ajokoli should not be able to interact. Or does it hint that Ajokoli is trapped on this side? If so that will be hugely significant.

Yatwer was always after Kel, at least in part because he had purged her cult and offended her personally. It's also unclear that she ever did see the No-god whatever else was going on. Severely limited of worshippers and power, she may have remained blind regardless.

As for Ajokoli, he seems to be a god of chaos and death, so his own aspect would prompt releasing the No-God.

What makes you say the Gods were sealed off? Yatwer was active throughout the second series and it appears so was Ajokoli.

[Abyss]

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Abyss, on 25 September 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

- Serwa... her turn as a pov character was a bit out of nowhere. I didn't really feel like i knew her well enough to buy her epic hero turn. Yes, taking out 100 choroi armed Ur-Sranc and a Wraku was very impressive and fun to read. I just wish it was a character i was more invested in doing it.

I'm now left wondering what the point of a lot of the characters and Arcs of this trilogy have been? Its been a great journey but I'm not sure now if all the pieces fit or were necessary? The non-men and Sorweel arc gave us a lot of background and I thoroughly enjoyed it but the Non-men arriving on the field didn't save the day. They hurt as much as they helped. We did learn that Quya are not to be fucked with though. Even Akkas ark and the entire judging eye seems to have come to naught. After refusing to give up her 2 chorae for 3 books, she abandons them unused in the last chapter. Was this always meant to be a red herring. I can only guess that she had a big role to come but the journey in this arc of the books feels wanting. I can only surmise that if the blind can recall the tone of god, and the gnosis recalls the word of god perhaps a judging eye combined with sorcery will be like the shamans of old. Sorcery without the mark at all and maybe able to accomplish amazing things. I suppose AkKas dream did tell us about Nau-Cyauti being the no god first. Interesting maybe that means that its the Seswatha line not the Anasurimbor line really that's important?

Interesting theory re the bloodlines.

Akka's plan to turn the Judging Eye on Kel was always iffy at best. That it came to nothing wasn't really a surprise... most of his plans came to nothing.
I suspect the truly significant part of Akka's storyline was to place him there when the Second Apocalypse starts, and to save Esme and Mimara for whatever comes next.


...if anything. Damn i hope we get more.

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What else is their to discuss? Esmenet being saved despite being a prostitute seems significant. I have always thought we were supposed to understand that the mass unconsciousness of the living determines the rules of the outside. So the fact that she is loved throughout the three seas could be responsible. At the same time the judging eye implies an objective truth to damnation. I don't really know, but it seems significant for some reason.

Agreed. And consider that given her experience holding the Empire together, she may be the only person, with Kel gone, who can rally what remains against the No-God.

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Zeum (maybe the scylvendi)is now the only nation which is in tact and would seemingly be important to resist the no-god. Saying that nothing on the planet seems like it should be able to fight off the Sranc hordes and 4 dunyain sorcerers. On the other hand the Consult seems to not have any other cars left to play.

The thing is, with the No-God awake, what more do they need? The Horde becomes a controlled force, whatever other assets, bashrag, wraku, corrupted non-men, will fall in line, commence worldrape.

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If the laser spear gun thing (not the heron spear apparently, someone better ask the scylvendi to find it ASAP) was capable of cutting the canted horn in half I find it difficult to believe that Kellhus with Metagnostic cants or hundreds of Quya mages in the past couldn't have melted Golgoterath to slag aeons ago.

I took that as Golgotterath was never the point, just the lure.

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The inchoroi themselves are a warrior race created in the vein of Sranc. They have souls however. So did at least one skin spy. Again this seems very significant. Did the race that created the inchoroi still exist.

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I love that he incuroi suffer the same problem as the immortal Non-men, they cant contain all their memories so their personalities and skills change over the aeons. They cant recall how to use the Tekne properly. WTF is wrong with Aurax. Its poetic and also consistent

Given the strong implication that the inchoroi were in essence a failed experiment and the one skin spy with a soul the same, i think the extent of the revelation is that a dead race left their garbage to cause trouble.

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Why did the Ark fall in the first place? Seems like if they had landed in tact they could have easily sealed the world off with their Tekne power. If the progenitors still exist do we have to worry about a second ark arriving? I remember nearly throwing away the warrior prophet series away in disgust when I learnt the consult were space aliens. Seemed utterly ridiculous. Bakker however knew what he was doing. Makes the series very unique and the whole thing is fascinating.

I loved the twist. One of my favorite incorporations of an sf element into a fantasy series.

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Edit- Why can Ajokoli control Chorae?

When did that happen?

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Will the apopretic magic ever be explained? Its by far the coolest branch of sorcery with no coverage. Makes me sad

Doubtful. Just an interesting thing Bakker worked in. Like SE he doesn't feel the need to explain all.

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Bizzare that Kellhus never made any magical contrivances, a sword, a shield a skinny mowing tank! The red ghouls magic armor is insanse!

Kel had a magic sword iirc. Armor would have just slowed him down.
And yeah, the Red Ghoul was fascinating, even if his whole history just sort of dropped into the story out of nowhere.

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His insistent use of the phrase death came swirling down now breaks my immersion everytime he uses it. He has created and abused his own cliché.

Along with the head on the pole and a few other turns of phrase, i just sort of rolled with them. Didn't bother me but i agree the effect was lost at times.

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Abyss, on 26 September 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

Mentalist, on 22 September 2017 - 10:04 AM, said:

Yeah, Kellhus loving Esmi doesn't add up (then again, see: "insane from TTT" ), so him needing her as the "god-shield of innocence" and not hating him is a more logical explanation.

Also wonder whether he saw her as a useful tool on multiple fronts, maintaining the Empire as long as possible, keeping his kids in line, and potentially rallying the Ordeal when he was not available.

He mentions in the book at some point that even he does not know why he saves her. She is the one thing that comes from the darkness inside him. I wonder if this was on some level a sign of his possession. Bakker apparently says their were signs and kellhus knew something was wrong and getting worse the closer he got to Golgotera but I cant see the signs.

Per above, that may have been groundwork for something else, but as Kel's one 'weakness', yes, very interesting.

[Cause]

Turn Back or your eyes shall be salted by spoilers



Re Kelmommas: I get that he was blind to the Gods, I just meant that he was in the right place at the right time to foil 2 white luck warriors and to also then foil Ajakoli is either statistically improbable or significant. Time will tell. Its also interesting, did being invisible make him the right candidate for the No-God device or did the fact that he would eventually end up in the no-god machine make him invisible retroactively. Time in regards to these metaphysics seems to be non-linear.

I cant remember the relevant quotes or passages off hand but their were definitely hints that ajakoli could possible see more than the other gods. He would have to be if he is the trickster god who plays tricks on the others. That was implied to be the reason he might thwart Yatwer. Their were also many passages that suggested Kelmomas had a special raport with Ajakoli. He liked his idol the most.

What I meant by the outside being sealed is that my understanding is that when the no-god is activated the reason no births can occur is because the no-god seals the world from the outside to some extent, no new souls can get in?. I may be wrong or misremembering. If that is the case the fact that ajokoli could possess cnaiur is meaningful. Also the reasons the gods cant act to save their followers and food from the no-god. Is because when he is active they become blind. So only after Kelmomas enters the machine would the gods be cut off.

When Ajokoli took control of the Topos that is Golgotera he seem to slam the Tleilaxu Face-dancers to the floor by forcing the hand that was holding the chorea down, its hard to be sure but that's how I interpreted his control of them.

I don't think its implied the inchoroi were a mistake, the excact opposite. They are a genetically created warrior race with souls who are programmed to damn themselves with their lust for sex and violence so that when they see the truth of the inverse fire they will become maximally commited to doing what must be done to prevent damnation. The nature of their creation ensures obedience to the goals of their progenitors.

Kellhus does wear armor, he wears a looted non-man Nimil chain shirt, I don't think his sword is ensorcelled, its the same Dunyain Steel sword he has had from book 1 as far as I remember


New point.

Did Serwa die to a hidden 100th chorea as an accident or did she also get killed by Kelmommas? Did he have the chorea in the hidden chorea pouch from Sorweel maybe. Seemed odd that she should take out 99 chorea bowman and a dragon and then just die.

This post has been edited by Cause: 21 November 2017 - 09:45 AM

[Abyss]

Cause, on 21 November 2017 - 08:13 AM, said:

Turn Back or your eyes shall be salted by spoilers

Re Kelmommas: I get that he was blind to the Gods, I just meant that he was in the right place at the right time to foil 2 white luck warriors and to also then foil Ajakoli is either statistically improbable or significant. Time will tell. Its also interesting, did being invisible make him the right candidate for the No-God device or did the fact that he would eventually end up in the no-god machine make him invisible retroactively. Time in regards to these metaphysics seems to be non-linear.


I cant remember the relevant quotes or passages off hand but their were definitely hints that ajakoli could possible see more than the other gods. He would have to be if he is the trickster god who plays tricks on the others. That was implied to be the reason he might thwart Yatwer. Their were also many passages that suggested Kelmomas had a special raport with Ajakoli. He liked his idol the most.

COuple of points... why were the gods bling to Kelmomas? Probably because he was destined to more or less become the No-God or the key to releasing the No-God, and time is funky.

Did he foil Ajokoli, or serve him? Unclear. Just because Ajokoli possessed Kelhus doesn't mean he didn't want Kelhus to fail. if we go with Ajokoli was blind to the No-God the entire time, he may have still wanted Kelhus to die, but expected it to be at the Consult's hands, not his own son.

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What I meant by the outside being sealed is that my understanding is that when the no-god is activated the reason no births can occur is because the no-god seals the world from the outside to some extent, no new souls can get in?. I may be wrong or misremembering. If that is the case the fact that ajokoli could possess cnaiur is meaningful. Also the reasons the gods cant act to save their followers and food from the no-god. Is because when he is active they become blind. So only after Kelmomas enters the machine would the gods be cut off.

Ajokoli only possesses Cnaiur after Kelhus is dead... maybe. For all we know he could have been riding both of them for ages.

It was never clear to me whether the No-God seals the world, or is so antithetical to life that new life cannot arise in his presence. Either way the Gods would have to be impacted by the removal of the possibility of any new followers or acquiring the souls of their existing followers. But they don't become blind.. as far as we know they were always blind to the No-God... which is something I've always found odd in the basic sense that the last Apocalypse isn't exactly a secret or something they failed to notice.

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When Ajokoli took control of the Topos that is Golgotera he seem to slam the Tleilaxu Face-dancers to the floor by forcing the hand that was holding the chorea down, its hard to be sure but that's how I interpreted his control of them.

I thought that was Kelhus dropping the skinspies with the metagnosis.. ie, their limbs, not the chorea they were holding.

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I don't think its implied the inchoroi were a mistake, the excact opposite. They are a genetically created warrior race with souls who are programmed to damn themselves with their lust for sex and violence so that when they see the truth of the inverse fire they will become maximally commited to doing what must be done to prevent damnation. The nature of their creation ensures obedience to the goals of their progenitors.

Not a mistake exactly, more like a flawed creation.

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Kellhus does wear armor, he wears a looted non-man Nimil chain shirt, I don't think his sword is ensorcelled, its the same Dunyain Steel sword he has had from book 1 as far as I remember

I have this vague recall that his sword had a name and a brief ref to its history.

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New point.

Did Serwa die to a hidden 100th chorea as an accident or did she also get killed by Kelmommas? Did he have the chorea in the hidden chorea pouch from Sorweel maybe. Seemed odd that she should take out 99 chorea bowman and a dragon and then just die.

Serwa was already dying from the not-Heron-spear blast. Someone gave her dead-nonman-dust to keep her upright. The wounds and effort killed her iirc.

[Mentalist]

This discussion is making me want to re-read the Battle of Golgoterrath.

@ Cause: I don't think it could be Seswatha's descendants, b/c Kellhus was offspring of the other Anasurimbor (the one earlier presumed KIA before the Battle where he had the Celmonian Prophecy) not Nayu-Kayuti. Unless of course Seswatha fathered ALL of his king's offspring.

[Cause]

Nayu-kayutu is apparently definitely the son of seswatha. So what does this mean? Do bayu and kayutu share a matrilinear ancestor in common? Otherwise what's the connection?

Crazy new thought. If the ark was a living organism Did It have a soul? How many horns did the arc have when it was fully in tact.

[Mentalist]

The Anasurimbor who is Moenghus + Kellhus' direct ancestor (the one who fled to Ishual in the prologue of Book 1) was (supposedly) Celmomas' son. This makes him Kayuti's half-brother. So yeah, it would suggest the connection is matrilinear, if we go by genetics.

[korik]

I am a big fan of this series, probably my second favorite author after Erikson. I have caught up with some of the discussion on the TSA forum, read the Bakker AMA on reddit that came out shortly after the release, and dipped into some of the discussion on Westeros (but that can get pretty heated and seems to be driven by just 4/5 people for pages and pages!). My comments are somewhat influenced from these sources, but bear in mind that Bakker has also been known to screw with his readers before – I think he said at one point that Cnaiur was dead. Apologies for the long post… I took my time reading it, and I am still digesting…

Random thoughts:
I loved the final showdown at Golgoterrath, it was epic in every sense of the word and had me hooked for the final third of the book, worth the extended build up from the series to date. The reveals in the Golden Room took me completely by surprise yet were completely obvious in retrospect, and from in-world consistency. I real joy to read and discover. I kind of suspected that this series would end with the No-God's resurrection as the whole series is called the Second Apocalypse and there wouldn't be an apocalypse if the No-God wasn't reborn, right?

I agree with the opinion that the cannibal-rapey stuff went on a bit too long, I get that it is terrible and you have to make the reader feel that to get a reaction, but it can be done with other techniques as well… but again, it makes sense that it has to be done in order for the ordeal to succeed.

The Kelhus thing is really interesting and it is one of the (many) things that are left intentionally vague. My understanding is that he made a deal with the Ajokli, probably finallised while he was exploring the Daimos, or communing with the decapitants, (see the glossary). His contact with him may have started when he was on the circumfix but this is all complicated by the timey-wimey nature of the gods. However, in the golden room Ajokli tricked him and took full possession of Kelhus. The big mistake Kelhus made was taking his personal identity for granted. Ajokli was the one controlling the chorae and this was only broken when something unexpected arrived that he could not see (Little Kel).

If you want a good view into Kelhus's thoughts re-read the section where he is speaking to Proyas personally while he is hanging. I think it is true when he says that he has no reason to lie at this point, and this is the closest the book gets to letting us know his motivations and thoughts. But I did love the POV of the decapitant though, a really great to solution to get a POV without using a super intelligent character who has to be somewhat mysterious.

Discussion elsewhere is very confident that the consult-dunyain are Shauriatas. I did not spot this on my first read but it looks very likely on a re-read. Only one speaks at a time and they go in an order, like the flash-back of Shauriatas doing this with others previously. I think it is tied to the fact that despite there large intellect Dunyain have a low will to resist this control. I hope that how this partnership works in practice will be explored further. How much of each is present in their speech and motivation is unclear, as there seem to be input from both.

I too was slightly disappointed by Akka's storyline, he never seemed to impact events too much, other than ferrying people around. He was more of a spectator which I was not expecting. An interesting theory I read is that Kelhus is reborn into Mimara's baby!!! Plus did anyone else miss that Mimara had twins and the second one was stillborn – really surprised me when I read that in later discussions. I must have skimmed over it.

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The Anasurimbor who is Moenghus + Kellhus' direct ancestor (the one who fled to Ishual in the prologue of Book 1) was (supposedly) Celmomas' son. This makes him Kayuti's half-brother. So yeah, it would suggest the connection is matrilinear, if we go by genetics.

I think Bakker has written that this was intentionally vague, it was never confirmed by anyone beyond doubt and is a reference that genealogical history from antiquity can never be trusted completely. My guess is that this is a rumor that is overplayed and Nau-Cayuti is true-born given that both of the successful insertants have been Anasurimbor.

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Serwa was already dying from the not-Heron-spear blast. Someone gave her dead-nonman-dust to keep her upright. The wounds and effort killed her iirc.

Again, Bakker said in the Reddit, that he is not sure why people think Serwa is dead. She definitely gets an arm salted off but I think the last mention of her is that her brother was carrying her body - so left intentionally vague again. Personally I hope she has survived, I would love to see further development of her character and how a half-dunyain copes with her injuries and the rise of the No-God.

This post has been edited by korik: 21 November 2017 - 10:04 PM

[Mentalist]

But it's not a "rumour" that's been popular gossip- Akka stumbles on this in Seswatha's dreams, when he dreams that Seswatha was sleeping with the king's wife. And he hails That as a major discovery, suggesting it's definitely not a piece of common wisdom.

[korik]

Apologies, rumor was perhaps the wrong word. The revelation that Seswatha was sleeping with the king’s wife explains why Seswatha may have thought Nau-Cayuti was his and was so devoted to to him i.e. sneaking into Golgoterrath together. It does not definitively prove that Nau-Cayuti is his child, his father Celmomas also suspected he was Seswatha's and this caused a rift between them for a number of years. But he couldn’t prove it, and eventually reconciled. This implies to me the mother was probably sleeping with both of them at the same time and nobody knew who the father was. Given that both successful insertants have been Anasurimbor, I lean towards Nau-Cayuti being true-born...

[Madness]

Cause, on 20 November 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

I hope to god Bakker just puts the next series on Kickstarter, he appears reluctant to do so but he apparently has problems making a living from these books. I want to fund him! He needs to write full time.

Yeah, no word so far on the third series being picked up by Overlook or another publisher (it'd be really nice to see box sets of PON/TAE and new canonical covers).

Cause, on 20 November 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

It reminded me of Late era Erikson and to me that is no longer a compliment.

What's the criticism of "late-era Erikson?"

Cause, on 20 November 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

Interesting that both Akka and Sorweel knew the reperucssions and I think Sorweel even seems to describe that their is a kind of cure but no further detail.

Classic Bakker brushing off Sorweel's remedy knowledge in a single line.

Cause, on 20 November 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

The hormones or what have you in the Sranc meat could effect human physiology sure but I think Bakker took it to an extreme too far. We also know that Sranc brains are different from human brains and they have no impulse control for example.

There was even more atrocity in the draft . His agent and some long-time draft readers had him cut down the Ordeal sections.

Also, there seems to be something to the enduring consequences of "eating the other," whether with Sranc or Qirri, which I find interesting. My #2 at SA suggests that Erikson also has more than a couple instances of cannibalism across Malazan.

Cause, on 20 November 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

I honestly cant figure out if Kellhus always wanted to sacrifice Proyas or if this was an early sign of Ajokoli possession. He did seem to spare Proyas by tying a rope around his stomach but it did not seem to be to serve any purpose. It did not seem meant to manipulate Akka for example

I think prolonging Proyas' life was Kellhus' concession to his vestigial passions. The conversation between Sorweel and Serwa upon their return make it pretty clear that Kellhus will sacrifice anyone to the Shortest Path as he sees it.

Cause, on 20 November 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

I was confused by this, when did he and how did he become the new whiteluck warrior. I know he decided to become an assassin again but when did he and how did he suddenly gain the white luck?

As per the Cnaiur/Achamian cipher, Cnaiur recalls way back in TTT, "the bead breaks upon madness and possession is simply a question of demonic or divine" (badly paraphrasing). When Oirunas rips the Amiolas from Sorweel in TGO it sends Sorweel spiraling – the subsequent tryst with Serwa, the return to the Cannibal Ordeal, and his reunion with Zsoronga simply serve to push the-moment-once-called-Sorweel over the edge.

Cause, on 20 November 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

I feel that mnay hints were given that Ajokoli could see what his siblings could not and so I thought he was acting to counter Yatwers influence. This now seems true and false at the same time.

It seems like Bakker quite cleverly used Kelmomas and his understanding of Ajokli to dupe the reader regarding the real target of Ajokli's machinations (Kellhus).

Cause, on 20 November 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

Zeum (maybe the scylvendi)is now the only nation which is in tact and would seemingly be important to resist the no-god. Saying that nothing on the planet seems like it should be able to fight off the Sranc hordes and 4 dunyain sorcerers. On the other hand the Consult seems to not have any other cars left to play.

I don't think the Three Seas is out yet. Esmenet mentions in the earliest TUC chapters that she was consolidating the New Empire's reserve forces in Sumna.

Cause, on 20 November 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

Edit- Why can Ajokoli control Chorae?

No idea but it seems important. Members at SA have referred to thaumaturgy to differentiate the expression of a god's agency in the world from the exercise of sorcery.

It would seem likely to Mimara's use of the "Tear of God" to banish the Wight in Cil-Aujas.

Cause, on 20 November 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

Bizzare that Kellhus never made any magical contrivances, a sword, a shield a skinny mowing tank! The red ghouls magic armor is insanse!

He definitely accrued magical contrivances. It wouldn't surprise me if he had created some off-screen.

Cause, on 20 November 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

His insistent use of the phrase death came swirling down now breaks my immersion everytime he uses it. He has created and abused his own cliché.

Homer is turning in his grave .

Cause, on 20 November 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

Bakker apparently says their were signs and kellhus knew something was wrong and getting worse the closer he got to Golgotera but I cant see the signs.

There are a number of instances of Kellhus commenting about being more and more blind to encroaching Darkness.

This post has been edited by Madness: 23 November 2017 - 01:42 AM

[Madness]

Abyss, on 20 November 2017 - 03:47 PM, said:

That carries a lot of weight for me.

+1

Abyss, on 20 November 2017 - 03:47 PM, said:

I have zero doubt Bakker intended to show Kel was always prepared to sacrifice Proyas, but remain uncertain whether it was always the plan.

Proyas seems to think that Kayutas was aware when Kellhus confronts him.

Abyss, on 20 November 2017 - 03:47 PM, said:

Yatwer was always after Kel, at least in part because he had purged her cult and offended her personally.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Yatwer was always after Ajokli – or at least limiting his Benjuka pieces to possess.

Abyss, on 20 November 2017 - 03:48 PM, said:

Akka's plan to turn the Judging Eye on Kel was always iffy at best. That it came to nothing wasn't really a surprise... most of his plans came to nothing.
I suspect the truly significant part of Akka's storyline was to place him there when the Second Apocalypse starts, and to save Esme and Mimara for whatever comes next.

...if anything. Damn i hope we get more.

Me too. Though, I'm fairly sure Mimara the Prophetess is going to play a huge role going forward.

Abyss, on 20 November 2017 - 03:48 PM, said:

Agreed. And consider that given her experience holding the Empire together, she may be the only person, with Kel gone, who can rally what remains against the No-God.

+1

Abyss, on 20 November 2017 - 03:48 PM, said:

When did that happen?

As I'm sure Cause mentions below, Ajokli is able to pin the many Skin-Spies in the Golden Room to the floor by the Chorae bound to their palms.

Cause, on 21 November 2017 - 08:13 AM, said:

When Ajokoli took control of the Topos that is Golgotera he seem to slam the Tleilaxu Face-dancers to the floor by forcing the hand that was holding the chorea down, its hard to be sure but that's how I interpreted his control of them.

+1

Cause, on 21 November 2017 - 08:13 AM, said:

Did Serwa die to a hidden 100th chorea as an accident or did she also get killed by Kelmommas? Did he have the chorea in the hidden chorea pouch from Sorweel maybe. Seemed odd that she should take out 99 chorea bowman and a dragon and then just die.

She loses an arm to the 100^th Chorae. Some fans seem to think that Kelmomas was responsible for that, though I'm not among them.

Bakker's been classically cagey but his r/fantasy AMA/SA Q&A comments would suggest that Serwa – and the majority of our Ordeal principles – survive.

Abyss, on 21 November 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

Probably because he was destined to more or less become the No-God or the key to releasing the No-God, and time is funky.

So says Bakker, out-of-text.

Abyss, on 21 November 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

Serwa was already dying from the not-Heron-spear blast. Someone gave her dead-nonman-dust to keep her upright. The wounds and effort killed her iirc.

There's actually a throw away line about Kayutas carrying Serwa after Ajokli's *big stomp* in the Golden Room, which causes a collapse on top of Serwa and Skuthula.

Cause, on 21 November 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

Nayu-kayutu is apparently definitely the son of seswatha. So what does this mean? Do bayu and kayutu share a matrilinear ancestor in common? Otherwise what's the connection?

Though the text hints at it – and Wert took it as canon in his History of Earwa – Achamian recalls on a number of occasions during PON that the Celmomas/Nau-Cayuti of his Dreams resemble Kellhus. I don't think Nau-Cayuti was Seswatha's son.

Cause, on 21 November 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

Crazy new thought. If the ark was a living organism Did It have a soul? How many horns did the arc have when it was fully in tact.

Isn't there that TUC Glossary entry about some theorizing that the Ark is something from the Outside rather than the Void? Not that I support those implications but Bakker added it for a reason.

korik, on 21 November 2017 - 09:52 PM, said:

Personally I hope she has survived, I would love to see further development of her character and how a half-dunyain copes with her injuries and the rise of the No-God.

+1
Quality communion, Malazan Empire .

This post has been edited by Madness: 23 November 2017 - 01:42 AM

[Cause]

We don't do communion. We Whelm!

[Abyss]

There is a sandwich on a pole behind you.