[Mentalist]

Okay, so I finished "The Great Ordeal" today, and mind is kinda blown

Spoiler

first of all, CNAIUR IS BACK!!!! YAAAAY!!!!!

secondly, Holy shit, if the Inchoroi directed the writing of the Tusk, then what are the chances they influenced how Men think of Gods to in turn make the Gods blind to the No-God? There's just so much theoryzing here.

Thirdly, Kelmonas somehow made the WLW fail, but is that a set-up for Kelmonans somehow becoming Kellhus' undoing later? or is it just Kellhus getting plot armour because he's the Savior? (I continue to hope not, because I still hate Kellhus and what he stands for)

Then there's the small bits like Consult having nukes, Proyas... "testing", etc.

Suffice to say, I'm already reading tUC....

[Mentalist]

.... And done. Okay, wow.

Spoiler

I'm vindicated in that I was right all along- the world would've been a better place if Kellhus died in The Warrior-Prophet

I honestly suspected that somehow Ajokli was involved ever since I started reading tGO. The fact that Kellhus was undone by Kelmonas after all was something I kinda saw coming back in tJE, then I figured I was totally wrong, and then it happened anyways.

With that first half (everything pre-assault on Golgoterrath) Bakker decisively stole GRRM's crown on "making likeable characters go through unspeakable torment"

Spoiler

RIP, Prosha

RIP Zsoronga

RIP, Sorweel

But yeah, that battle.... amazing.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Mentalist, on 12 August 2017 - 11:23 PM, said:

.... And done. Okay, wow.

With that first half (everything pre-assault on Golgoterrath) Bakker decisively stole GRRM's crown on "making likeable characters go through unspeakable torment"

Spoiler

RIP, Prosha

RIP Zsoronga

RIP, Sorweel

But yeah, that battle.... amazing.

Didn't think of any of those characters as likeable. Kelmomas and Serwa (and Cnaiur and---to a slighter extent---Akka and Moe), otoh....

I was really a little sad when

Spoiler

Kel heroically (and acrobatically) slaughtered Sorweel and Kellhus just thought he was crazy / defective and no one noticed the chorae lost in the swirl of the crowd....

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 12 August 2017 - 11:47 PM

[Mentalist]

I think I've been pretty clear that I've hated Kellhus since book 1. So pretty much anyone that's a victim of his manipulations I have a soft spot for. This likely colours my reasoning.

Kel is a psychopath, and I never tried to look at him as a person, tbh- just the plot device to tear the family (and everything else) apart.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Mentalist, on 12 August 2017 - 11:52 PM, said:

I think I've been pretty clear that I've hated Kellhus since book 1. So pretty much anyone that's a victim of his manipulations I have a soft spot for. This likely colours my reasoning.

Kel is a psychopath, and I never tried to look at him as a person, tbh- just the plot device to tear the family (and everything else) apart.

Are the Dunyain really so bad?

1. Aspire to become rational, and transcend the irrational aspects of your causal programming
2. Because most people do not respond well to pure reason, learn to manipulate them using facial expressions, oratory, and psychology/cognitive neuroscience
3. When limits of reason's efficacy are reached,

Spoiler

go partly insane. Get possessed by the devil.

I find this extremely relateable, personally....

[Mentalist]

I have 2 degrees: psych and law.

I am well-versed with the mechanics of manipulation- on a scale far smaller than the Dunyain, but the same principles apply (and I know first-hand how easy it is)

-I am also a strong believer in the ethical constraints that are supposed to prevent people from exploiting these methods for their own gain- the same ethics that the Dunyain completely lack.

-In a way, I suppose, Kellhus is the very antithesis of what I've been conditioned (yes, I'm using that deliberately, ) to be. His lack of morals and ethics makes him the very thing I've learned to abhor in the course of my entire professional career.

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 13 August 2017 - 12:06 AM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Mentalist, on 13 August 2017 - 12:05 AM, said:

I have 2 degrees: psych and law.

I am well-versed with the mechanics of manipulation- on a scale far smaller than the Dunyain, but the same principles apply (and I know first-hand how easy it is)

-I am also a strong believer in the ethical constraints that are supposed to prevent people from exploiting these methods for their own gain- the same ethics that the Dunyain completely lack.

-In a way, I suppose, Kellhus is the very antithesis of what I've been conditioned (yes, I'm using that deliberately, ) to be. His lack of morals and ethics makes him the very thing I've learned to abhor in the course of my entire professional career.

One question through most of the books is what the aim of the Logos and the Thousandfold Thought is---Kellhus claims not to be acting for his own gain, but to be acting on the logic of the Thousandfold Thought. It seems like the most honest imaginable ethics.

Spoiler

Even at the end, when it's revealed he's possessed by Ajokli and is acting for his own gain of power, to dominate hell as the Dunyain dominate people (though the Dunyain---as evidenced by the Mutilated---do it to further the Logos, despite the presumably obvious power they could have gained by attempting to conquer Hell / the Outside themselves)---it remains unclear whether that really was the aim of the Thousandfold Thought (how could it be, when Moenghus Senior tells Kellhus he doesn't even believe hell / the Outside exists?), or whether Kellhus underestimated Ajokli / didn't realize the extent to which he was under Ajokli's influence (as Bakker intimates in the Reddit AMA irc).

Also: given that your handle is Mentalist... Kellhus is a lot like "The Mentalist" (Simon Baker, probably no relation... actually I know a mentalist named Bakker), don't you think? Do you hate "The Mentalist" for manipulating people too?

I've done a little bit of mentalism, and it irritates me how easily people can be duped into thinking I have psychic powers. (And how they assume that the illusion of telekinesis must mean I have powerful electromagnets all over me... which I usually don't.)

[Mentalist]

My nickname is a reference to my psych degree, as well a reference to a particular character from "Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain". I'm aware there's a show called "The Mentalist", but I've never watched it,

As for the Thousandfold Thought: as far back as tJE's "What came before", Bakker repeatedly insinuated that Kellhus was driven mad by delving too deep into it.
The whole point of the Thousandfold Thought is to apply The Shortest Path- which is the most efficient but not necessarily the most beneficent or benevolent solution.

Moenghus and Kellhus both sought the solution to the problem of "saving mankind". They both failed to account for what we now know:

Spoiler

The Anasurimbor's "soul" (or genetic code, more likely, given how the Inchoroi are all about the material) was the trigger for the No-God. if Moenghus knew that, it stands to reason that the Shortest Path would be to eradicate all his progeny and kill himself. Then the Apocalypse would never happen

Given this, I don't see any point in viewing TTT as anything "divine" or "Absolute". It's a tool ( and a flawed one at that), not an expression of anything transcendental.

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 13 August 2017 - 12:31 AM

[Puck]

To add to what Ment is saying, there's also the clearly explained path the Inchoroi themselves took after they abandoned their beliefs and turned to pure reason, which eventually descended into animal instincts and atrocities because they had done away with morals as part of turning to reason. Eventually, they ended up ruled by a machine (Ark), which one would think to be the epitome of logic and reason. Maybe I'm just misinterpreting, but for me the point made is clearly that reason is great, but without morals (those same morals the Dûnyain lack) and feelings (which they also lack) it's just as 'evil' as pure erratic irrationality. Moderation and the middle path seems to be the key here, something basically all of the parties involved in the story lack, and the middle path is not neccessarily the shortest path, which may sound great but upon closer inspection dehumanises everything that's in its way.

This post has been edited by Puck: 13 August 2017 - 02:51 PM

[Mentalist]

this

The big issue for me is that not everything in "the darkness that comes before" is bad- there's things like empathy, compassion, etc. Sure, these "limit" us from becoming truly "self-moving souls", but then this brings us back to the previous point- a "self-moving soul" is by definition a sociopath.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Mentalist, on 13 August 2017 - 04:46 PM, said:

this

The big issue for me is that not everything in "the darkness that comes before" is bad- there's things like empathy, compassion, etc. Sure, these "limit" us from becoming truly "self-moving souls", but then this brings us back to the previous point- a "self-moving soul" is by definition a sociopath.

What makes "compassion, empathy, etc." good, though? Is it the extent to which they coincide with the rational good? Ample psychological research (see Yale psychologist Paul Bloom's recent book Against Empathy: The Case for Rational Compassion) has demonstrated that affectively-driven human "empathy" tends to lead to what seem like unethical decisions (for example, favoring in-group or similar people over out-group or dissimilar sentient beings, being more motivated by the suffering of a single person than the suffering of multitudes, et cetera et cetera); and to the extent that "compassion" is conceived of as the rational version of "empathy", it belongs more to the Logos than to the "darkness that comes before".


But part of the problem is whether the Logos is conceived of as "individual" or universal good; "irrationality" on the level of individual good can contribute to rationality in terms of communal good (not to mention long-term survival / replication of traits as opposed to destructive conflicts). And then there's the question of how the multitude of processes, organs, cells (numerically most of which are bacteria---and gut bacteria appear to significantly influence our emotions), informational circuits, cognitions, memes, patterns and flows within us from moment to moment converge into (what is largely the illusion of a purely) cohesive "individual" person---we are all always-already legion....

Spoiler

The scene in TUC with the Mutilated and Kelllhus suggests that the Dunyain generally conceive of the Logos in universal terms (or at least, universal relative to souls that are not gods or Ciphrang), but Kellhus conceives of it in terms of individual power (and salvation)... but then we learn he really has been possessed by Ajokli, who's speaking in his place.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 17 August 2017 - 12:43 AM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Puck, on 13 August 2017 - 02:49 PM, said:

To add to what Ment is saying, there's also the clearly explained path the Inchoroi themselves took after they abandoned their beliefs and turned to pure reason, which eventually descended into animal instincts and atrocities because they had done away with morals as part of turning to reason. Eventually, they ended up ruled by a machine (Ark), which one would think to be the epitome of logic and reason. Maybe I'm just misinterpreting, but for me the point made is clearly that reason is great, but without morals (those same morals the Dûnyain lack) and feelings (which they also lack) it's just as 'evil' as pure erratic irrationality. Moderation and the middle path seems to be the key here, something basically all of the parties involved in the story lack, and the middle path is not neccessarily the shortest path, which may sound great but upon closer inspection dehumanises everything that's in its way.

In TUC, it's revealed that the Inchoroi

Spoiler

are themselves a "kind of Sranc"---created by the Progenitors to embody "animal instincts and atrocities" so that they would be as damned as possible, ergo maximally motivated every time they glanced up at the inverse fire. Whereas, according to the Mutilated, the Progenitors themselves were damned not because of sex stuff or cruelty or violence, but because in attaining causal knowledge they came too close to the Absolute. Whether the Progenitors still exist or not is iirc not specified.

But "the shortest path"---without a destination beyond the Absolute, beyond purportedly overcoming the darkness that comes before---does lead nowhere, except perhaps to oblivion (if not necessarily "passing into extinction"...).

[Andorion]

So, I finished this book.

WTF just happened?

Lots of questions:

1. Why didn't Kelhus have a navy? Would it not have been far more useful to have a large navy with accompanying mages which would sail up the coast, creating supply dumps, and then would ferry the army across the Leash? They would have mostly avoided the Horde, and the whole "Eat Sranc - go crazy - indulge in a rape and cannibalism spree" would have been unnecessary. Kelhys had plenty of time, why not do this?

2. Why did Kelhus go back to get Esmenet and the kid? I never really understood his actual feelings towards Esmenet. And why did he not kill the kid? Even if he could not guess what the kid was upto, he was a distraction.

3. So was Akka's entire role travelling around and being grumpy? Also was Mimara's entire role just to get a child? Her Judging Eye did not really do a lot at crucial times.

4. So the Scylvendi's plan was to ambush Kelhus at Golgoterrath? Or was that a later innovation? Was his main plan to find Ishual?

5. How did Kelmomas trigger the No God? Because he was Kelhus' son?

This post has been edited by Andorion: 30 August 2017 - 09:46 AM

[Mentalist]

Andorion, on 30 August 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

So, I finished this book.

WTF just happened?

Lots of questions:

1. Why didn't Kelhus have a navy? Would it not have been far more useful to have a large navy with accompanying mages which would sail up the coast, creating supply dumps, and then would ferry the army across the Leash? They would have mostly avoided the Horde, and the whole "Eat Sranc - go crazy - indulge in a rape and cannibalism spree" would have been unnecessary. Kelhys had plenty of time, why not do this?

2. Why did Kelhus go back to get Esmenet and the kid? I never really understood his actual feelings towards Esmenet. And why did he not kill the kid? Even if he could not guess what the kid was upto, he was a distraction.

3. So was Akka's entire role travelling around and being grumpy? Also was Mimara's entire role just to get a child? Her Judging Eye did not really do a lot at crucial times.

4. So the Scylvendi's plan was to ambush Kelhus at Golgoterrath? Or was that a later innovation? Was his main plan to find Ishual?

5. How did Kelmomas trigger the No God? Because he was Kelhus' son?

1) navy would involve conquering Zeum, and have its own logistical problems, given he was on a tight schedule. Also, a fleet approaching Golgoterath would be a sitting duck for Consul magic strikes (the glossary refers to a failed Nonmen naval attack way back when)

It's also important to keep in mind that all of Kellhus' subjects would only be used to sailing the 3 seas- which would leave them totally unprepared for sailing the ocean, around potentially hostile Zeum.

Oh, and any supply depots along the coast north of Zeum but south of the Nonmen lands would be in Sranc-infested mountains and would serve as a lodestone for Sranc attacks.

2) Kellhus appears to "love" Esmi (in his crazy fashion). It's also possible he felt he still needed her "pure faith" as anti-God shield. He didn't kill Kel, b/c Esmi would never forgive him that.

3) Akka was busy having visions that eventually revealed the big secret-

Spoiler

Anasurimbor's "soul" (or genes, if we stick to material?) were needed to trigger the No-God

Mimara's Judging Eye revealed the ultimate failure of the Ordeal. Plus, it kept them alive in the mines of Moria Cil-Aujas, and kept her alive in Sauglish. As a plot device, it did enough.

4) Cnaiur wanted to kill Kellhus. Everything else was secondary.

5) see the spoilers in 3. The mechanism isn't really clear, but they explicitly say they needed Anasurimbor all along.

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 30 August 2017 - 04:23 PM

[Andorion]

Mentalist, on 30 August 2017 - 04:17 PM, said:

Andorion, on 30 August 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

So, I finished this book.

WTF just happened?

Lots of questions:

1. Why didn't Kelhus have a navy? Would it not have been far more useful to have a large navy with accompanying mages which would sail up the coast, creating supply dumps, and then would ferry the army across the Leash? They would have mostly avoided the Horde, and the whole "Eat Sranc - go crazy - indulge in a rape and cannibalism spree" would have been unnecessary. Kelhys had plenty of time, why not do this?

2. Why did Kelhus go back to get Esmenet and the kid? I never really understood his actual feelings towards Esmenet. And why did he not kill the kid? Even if he could not guess what the kid was upto, he was a distraction.

3. So was Akka's entire role travelling around and being grumpy? Also was Mimara's entire role just to get a child? Her Judging Eye did not really do a lot at crucial times.

4. So the Scylvendi's plan was to ambush Kelhus at Golgoterrath? Or was that a later innovation? Was his main plan to find Ishual?

5. How did Kelmomas trigger the No God? Because he was Kelhus' son?

1) navy would involve conquering Zeum, and have its own logistical problems, given he was on a tight schedule. Also, a fleet approaching Golgoterath would be a sitting duck for Consul magic strikes (the glossary refers to a failed Nonmen naval attack way back when)

It's also important to keep in mind that all of Kellhus' subjects would only be used to sailing the 3 seas- which would leave them totally unprepared for sailing the ocean, around potentially hostile Zeum.

Oh, and any supply depots along the coast north of Zeum but south of the Nonmen lands would be in Sranc-infested mountains and would serve as a lodestone for Sranc attacks.

2) Kellhus appears to "love" Esmi (in his crazy fashion). It's also possible he felt he still needed her "pure faith" as anti-God shield. He didn't kill Kel, b/c Esmi would never forgive him that.

3) Akka was busy having visions that eventually revealed the big secret-

Spoiler

Anasurimbor's "soul" (or genes, if we stick to material?) were needed to trigger the No-God

Mimara's Judging Eye revealed the ultimate failure of the Ordeal. Plus, it kept them alive in the mines of Moria Cil-Aujas, and kept her alive in Sauglish. As a plot device, it did enough.

4) Cnaiur wanted to kill Kellhus. Everything else was secondary.

5) see the spoilers in 3. The mechanism isn't really clear, but they explicitly say they needed Anasurimbor all along.

Kellhus had a very long time to prepare. Given the resources at his disposal as well as his own abilities I think he could have brought Zeum into the fold. Also a naval expedition could have been defended by the Mandate. He could have infiltrated Ishtebirinth and brought over the Quya earlier as well.

How can a Dunyain love anyone?

The thing about Akka and Mimara is that while they see a lot of things, they rarely ever do anything about these things. Its very frustrating.

BTW was the first NG destroyed by a Heron Spear beam zapping the Carapace and destroying the old Anasurimbor traces? Where is the Heron Spear even? Given its power and reputation, why didn't Kellhus devote more resources to finding it?

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

New audiobook release date appears to be September 15th (on Audible)---just preordered.

If you don't currently subscribe to Audible, they seem to be running another "2 free credits for a 30-day free trial" even for people who subscribed in the not extremely distant past (they claim this audiobook's regular retail price is $38.49). So even if you don't like audiobooks it's a quick free way to support the author and future books (Audible is synced with Amazon so you don't even have to enter your info if you have an Amazon account).


Looking forward to hearing Orton voicing Cnaiur and the Wracu and the No-God and Ajokli (not to mention Kellhus, and the narrative...)... his grand Price-meets-Lithgow style is great for this.

[Madness]

Azath Vitr (D, on 01 September 2017 - 09:25 PM, said:

New audiobook release date appears to be September 15th (on Audible)---just preordered.

If you don't currently subscribe to Audible, they seem to be running another "2 free credits for a 30-day free trial" even for people who subscribed in the not extremely distant past (they claim this audiobook's regular retail price is $38.49). So even if you don't like audiobooks it's a quick free way to support the author and future books (Audible is synced with Amazon so you don't even have to enter your info if you have an Amazon account).

Looking forward to hearing Orton voicing Cnaiur and the Wracu and the No-God and Ajokli (not to mention Kellhus, and the narrative...)... his grand Price-meets-Lithgow style is great for this.

Thanks for that notation, Azath Vitr.

[Abyss]

Am about 6hrs into UNHOLY CONSULT...

Spoiler

The Ordeal just arrived at Gogotterath, Serve and Sorweel just rejoined, Cnaiur is beating the crap out of Moengus)...

...damn, this is some dark dark stuff. I mean that in a good way, mostly.

Enjoying this in earbook, tho it does perhaps require a bit more attention to detail and i find myself relistening to parts every so often to be clear on wtf just happened.

...because there is a LOT of wtf in this book so far.

[End of Disc One]

This book was so good but the AMA Bakker did potentially makes it worse. I don't know if he was just fucking with us, but I recommend not reading it and forming your own conclusions about the ending.

I'm still thinking about this book and the ending a week later. Loved it.

[Hocknose]

End of Disc One, on 18 September 2017 - 05:37 PM, said:

This book was so good but the AMA Bakker did potentially makes it worse. I don't know if he was just fucking with us, but I recommend not reading it and forming your own conclusions about the ending.

I'm still thinking about this book and the ending a week later. Loved it.

Which part of the ending are you specifically referring to?