[Aparal Forge]

Monok Ochem, on 15 October 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

From memory, I don't think Aparal was the first to bring up why he thinks Fanderay was killed. I'll have to check, but in my head it's fairly certain that was aping someone else - Anomandaris I think. In fact, yeah, it's definitely what Anomandaris already said at end of day 1/during night 1.

Being 'one of the first' to express interest in Emurlahn is hardly evidence of original thinking either.


So I'm not too sure where 'the bullshit' is after those two things are countered.



Look, I'm not 100% convinced on Aparal or anything, but your counter-arguments don't hold water either for me.

I was the first poster on Day 2. Go back and check. Your memory is at serious fault.

And since when is changing a vote to get a lynch jumping on the bandwagon?

[Karosis]

Aparal Forge, on 15 October 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

Ryll I voted for Omtose to try and get a lynch. I never stopped being suspicious about Liosan

Yet you didn't say shit last day other than making one brilliant observation that we should continue against Omtose even thought he was MIA... you'd think if your suspicions never stopped against Liosan you would vote for him seeing as Ryll had a hard on, and a vote, on for Liosan. Or at least say something. I think you were just staying in the shadows and hoping everything will blow over.

[Monok Ochem]

Aparal Forge, on 15 October 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

Monok Ochem, on 15 October 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

From memory, I don't think Aparal was the first to bring up why he thinks Fanderay was killed. I'll have to check, but in my head it's fairly certain that was aping someone else - Anomandaris I think. In fact, yeah, it's definitely what Anomandaris already said at end of day 1/during night 1.

Being 'one of the first' to express interest in Emurlahn is hardly evidence of original thinking either.


So I'm not too sure where 'the bullshit' is after those two things are countered.



Look, I'm not 100% convinced on Aparal or anything, but your counter-arguments don't hold water either for me.

I was the first poster on Day 2. Go back and check. Your memory is at serious fault.

And since when is changing a vote to get a lynch jumping on the bandwagon?

And as I said, Anomandaris already mentioned the same thing at the end of day 1, which is BEFORE day 2, last time I checked.

[Monok Ochem]

The point, Aparal, is not that you're at fault for vote-changing in order to get a lynch, but that all game you've contributed little that hadn't already been said by someone else before that. That's the problem I have with you.


On the other hand, Ryll is correct to point out that some (Karosis, Demelain, and myself) have largely gone the whole game without attracting serious attention. So it's time to look into that too. Perhaps you can help out there too, Aparal.

[Karosis]

First. I don't undersnatd why Ryll keeps is defending AF instead of letting AF do that himself..

Ryllandaras, on 15 October 2015 - 06:21 AM, said:

You should be glad I didn't vote as if Aparal is town then it'd be game over right now.

All 3 of Demelain, Monok and Karosis have avoided suspicion all game. I don't think 1 of the 3 have received a vote. No pressure on either of them.


I'm glad Liosan and Omtose are gone as it clears up the fog in my vision. I'm going to properly look things up today with a fresh set of eyes.

Second, why are you glad that we allowed scum to pick for us? I would rather loose due to my own choice than to lose because scum are the only ones picking.

And why are you also glad that Liosan is gone even though he was a townie? Scummy thing to say. So you refused to look at any other options just because Liosan was around?

[Ryllandaras]

Karosis, on 15 October 2015 - 12:36 PM, said:

First. I don't undersnatd why Ryll keeps is defending AF instead of letting AF do that himself..

Ryllandaras, on 15 October 2015 - 06:21 AM, said:

You should be glad I didn't vote as if Aparal is town then it'd be game over right now.

All 3 of Demelain, Monok and Karosis have avoided suspicion all game. I don't think 1 of the 3 have received a vote. No pressure on either of them.


I'm glad Liosan and Omtose are gone as it clears up the fog in my vision. I'm going to properly look things up today with a fresh set of eyes.

Second, why are you glad that we allowed scum to pick for us? I would rather loose due to my own choice than to lose because scum are the only ones picking.

And why are you also glad that Liosan is gone even though he was a townie? Scummy thing to say. So you refused to look at any other options just because Liosan was around?

More like I was afraid of being in this situation with him around. Which is interesting for you to say that because I asked you about it earlier in the game and you refrained from answering. I'll bring it up now

[Karosis]

Asked about what? Refrain from answering what? Care to be more clear? My answer: tomatoes. Good enough for ya?

[Monok Ochem]

I know we shouldn't, as a rule, discuss scum kill motivations, but I can't help wondering if Liosan was killed in order to remove the only obstacle for Ryll to also place their vote on Aparal.

[Ryllandaras]

Day 1


Karosis avoided most of the discussion. Only made a couple of posts. He comments on Emurlahns vote of Monok.

Karosis, on 06 October 2015 - 04:54 PM, said:

Probably to point out that his first vote was not a mistake.

This directs us away from the vote on Monok back to the vote on Liosan.

Monok

Kadagar mentions Monok for being absent early day one. (Monok voted Kadagar 3 days straight after this)
When Monok arrives he doesn't see why we were voting Emur.

Monok Ochem, on 06 October 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

I don't particularly see why Emur is being voted for, to be honest. Voting so eye-catchingly/discussion-inducingly doesn't strike me as particularly scummy behaviour.

Not focusing on the Fanderay part but it's worth a mention that Monok got snippy with him.

Monok Ochem, on 06 October 2015 - 05:56 PM, said:

Fanderay, on 06 October 2015 - 05:52 PM, said:

Monok Ochem, on 06 October 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

HELLO!

Sorry sorry sorry. I was out all day today and completely forgot about this. My bad, no other excuse than that. But here now eh?

a rather unsubstantial first post wouldnt you say? least you could do is contribute some of your thoughts now that you're out of hiding.

Also cross post with the previous two.

Okay, give me more than 30 seconds to read the thread perhaps? Or do you think you're somehow contributing by attempting to push me so pointlessly?

Later he sets early suspicion about Aparal in response to Ano but moves the discussion over to Kadagar. Who he then votes for.

Monok Ochem, on 06 October 2015 - 09:26 PM, said:

Anomandaris, on 06 October 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

I always look for the useless, "helpful" posters. As of now that's Aparal Forge who has 4 or 5 posts which say absolutely nothing original.

I'll vote to get a lynch, but Emurlahn is too idiotic to be scum.

I agree. Aparal struck me similarly, though I have even stronger feelings about Kadagar (who has, yep, now jumped on Emur to try and give that lynch some steam).

[Karosis]

Same could be said that he could have been removed just because he was voting on AF, plus he was active.

More importantly, how could scum know Ryll's motivations? That's some real far reaching idea.

[Ryllandaras]

Karosis, on 15 October 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:

Asked about what? Refrain from answering what? Care to be more clear? My answer: tomatoes. Good enough for ya?

It's coming, this analysis is quite long so I'm posting as I go to avoid quote blocks.

[Karosis]

Just make sure you got a conclusion in there and not just observations.

Also, I am waiting for AF's comment on my post #362.

[Ryllandaras]

Still day 1

Aparal expresses interest in emur,was against looking at signalling and is torn between voting for Ryll or Emur.

Demelain wonders about the emur vote and Omtose vote. Agrees with Fanderay about signalling and questions me in the process

Demelain, on 06 October 2015 - 03:48 PM, said:

So, basically, a little of 12 hours remaining, if I did the math right.

First of all, I also think that symp isn't an easy role to play, especially for new players, so I agree with Anomandaris that we shouldn't give the symp too much credit.

I agree with Fanderay that talk of signalling usually doesn't lead to much or much good. That doesn't change the fact that voting for someone who hasn't posted yet just four hours into game is odd, especially when you take into account mod kills. It almost looks like a desperate attempt at emulating typical early town behaviour of going after or speculation about [l]low[/i] posters. However, this early in the game, accompanied with a vote and directed to a no, rather than a low poster? I don't know what it was.

However, Ryll certainly has an opinion about it:

Ryllandaras, on 06 October 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:

I think that Emur is a symp, and this was misdirection. Definitely something to look out for.

However, if they are so convinced that it was a misdirection, they fail to mention who or what Emur was misdirecting from. As I think it's better to go after a killer than a symp, I would expect Ryll's investigation to end up there, not sticking with the hypothesized symp.

So, misdirection, from what or who?

And if you don't have a clue, Ryll, why are you're stating it like it's a fact? Odd.

He flips out over the vote on Monok by Emur.

Interesting, I put in my notes.

Demelain, on 06 October 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

Emurlahn, on 06 October 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

Remove Vote


Vote Monok Ochem

Now you're just messing with us? Right? Did you get the part that players who don't participate get a mod kill?

What's up with that?

Eventually he doesn't think Emur us scum but votes for him to get the lynch.

Demelain, on 06 October 2015 - 10:11 PM, said:

I think there's approximately 5 hours and 41 minutes left.

I have to turn in for the night, it's way past the time I was planning anyway.

I'm actually willing to vote Emurlahn, just to stop us going round and round in circles, so I'll do that now.

Vote Emurlahn

Monok asking for permission to hammer

Monok Ochem, on 06 October 2015 - 11:24 PM, said:

If we're agreed I will hammer. If they're lying, please for the love of everything no one counter reveal either.

[Ryllandaras]

Day 2


Aparal does a bunch of quotes to implicate Liosan in the night kill.

He then does a bunch of quotes to implicate me in the night kill.

Monok attacks Kadagar with regards to his Omtose suspicion and then votes for him.

Demelain doesn't like Aparal's interpretation of the night kill as he thinks Aparal purposefully left posts out.

Karosis analyses the reasons for Emur's actions.

Karosis, on 08 October 2015 - 01:13 AM, said:

Trying to determine if Emurlahns posts had a point behind and if they connect to anyone. His posts had to have a goal, especially since he continued.

Em wants to to vote no/low posts going alphebetically.

He votes Liosan. Liosan shows up and posts that he is present. Right after, Em takes vote off.

He voted Monok even though he must see that is not the wisest thing to do at that point.

Monok Ochem shows up and places a few posts, with saying hes not particulary fond of voting Em.

Em comes back, says he will on low posters, removes vote and does not place another one.

Traction on Em vote. Em goes bersek, "reveals"

Liosan goes off on Em

Monok votes Em

Liosan votes Em (extra vote, Im pretty sure)

If there is a relationship between Em votes and the respective players, the only thing that pops up is how Liosan wrote all this shit late in the day that everyone already voiced, and eventually voted for Em as an extra vote. Could it be possible that Em purposely voted Liosan to signal and then when he got flack for it he made it seem like he was doing the proper and calculated thing and continued to vote on Monek? Then Liosan stepped in, seeing how Em was about to get lynched and distancing himself by posting all that.

Was it also necessary to post all that stuff about Fanderay right before it was clear that Em was going to be lynched? Did Liosan include all that stuff about Fanderay just so he can look cleaner when Fanderay was killed that night?

Hmm.

Comes away with suspicion of Liosan and makes the Monok vote seem like a distraction.

Liosan suspects Karosis' post was to capitalize on the craziness at the end of the day.

Monok says that a symp wouldn't use a vote as a signal.

Monok Ochem, on 08 October 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

We have a piddly hour to decide on a course of action. Personally, even if Emur was a symp, I never understood why voting for someone would be a 'signal'. Or indeed, why a symp would bother signalling through anything other than their game-wide actions assisting the scum.

Demelain explains what he finds off about Aparal.

Day ended without a lynch.

[Ryllandaras]

Day 3
Monok mentions that the scum are using a strategy, that they are killing the highest posters.

Monok Ochem, on 08 October 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

So far the killers have offed the highest two posters - going for the silence the town strategy?

My suspicions of Kadagar still hold, and I'm happy to see others coming round. For the sake of those who don't feel like going back to read up, it is not only based on the seemingly faulty logic link-up of Emurlahn and Omtose, but also their day 1 play - having earlier voted for Omtose, KF removed their vote once things starting leaning toward Emurlahn. They then made a weedy statement about Emur being suspicious, but without committing a vote, i.e. waiting to see if more people would start going along that way before joining in themselves, rather than simply laying down a vote there and then.


Vote Kadagar Fant

He then responds to my vote on Liosan with the I'm a townie line.

Monok Ochem, on 08 October 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

Ryllandaras, on 08 October 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

I'm still going to

vote liosan

For the reasons I said before. Gnaw can be blatant about things like this and I think his later play was back tracking. It's made you all look elsewhere rather than the elephant in the room.

Well, your argument rests on Emur signalling his masters by voting them. He voted for two people, Liosan and myself. Now, I know that I am a townie. This therefore also makes me doubt then the second half of your hypothesis, that Liosan would be scum based on the same link.

Basically, from my own perspective, your case is not strong enough.

Demelain back him up with 2 quick posts.

The first a dig at Kadagar. The second disliking my vote on Liosan.

Demelain, on 08 October 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

Kadagar Fant, on 08 October 2015 - 12:55 PM, said:

Your case it is shit. It's all based on wifom.

Now let's get into NK logics... Ano was actually defending me earlier in the thread. So why would I NK someone that may possibly help keep me alive?

Your aversion to WIFOM cuts both ways, you know. Not only do I not think that Anomandaris was really defending you, he didn't object when Monok Ochem likened you to a player he found suspicious, Aparal, I could easily argue that you wouldn't want to kill one of your accusers when they are so vocal and the defence "but he was defending me"* was a nice plus for you in addition to killing a vocal D1 player. That's all WIFOM, I know, but so is your defence.

*) As stated, I don't think he was really defending you, but it's your perception of him defending you that mattered here.

Aparal with his suspicion of Lio and KF but he's explained that up thread.

Karosis says he can vote KF and wants to look at Ryll.

Demelain then attacks Ryll and argues with him quite a bit.

Karosis starts back and forth with Liosan

Demelain with Kadagar aswel as Ryll.

[Monok Ochem]

So far this is a lot like what I did yesterday Ryll

[Ryllandaras]

KAROSIS

this is what I was referring to.

Ryllandaras, on 09 October 2015 - 06:19 AM, said:

Karosis, on 08 October 2015 - 11:37 PM, said:

Liosan, do you mean your #170 post commenting on my take on the whole Em kerfuffle? There is nothing to respond to as you didn't ask a question or anything. Just your refutation. If you want something specific cleared up, ask, but I think that everything that should have been said on that topic, was. I was never 100% convinced what I proposed but it seems 2 more people are following the same path. Which bring me to Ryll.

Now about Ryll. Even though he kind of repeats what I said as well (or at least now), what is not sitting well with me how he is attacking the same problem with different ideas.

Reading the thread over again, now I see what was bothering me, and Demelain already called him out on it, post #200

Ryll first was saying that Em's vote was a misdirection, and a false signal to Liosan, and now his theory is that in fact that Em's vote is a real signal towards Liosan.

I don't like the flip flopping. Having a "crazy" theory is one thing, but changing the concept while still focusing on the same outcome is another. Seems forced.

Karosis are you saying you don't want me to have a flexible opinion?

How do you see the vote on Liosan then pray tell? You see it one way and one way only then enlighten me.

You avoid the response to my questions when they were relevant to the discussion. It's like you didn't want to commit even though earlier in the day you had your suspicions and I shared your thoughts. In fact I think I voted Liosan because of them yet you wanted to look elsewhere. You ignored this post and when Demelain was presented Omtose as an option you jumped on board straight away.

Demelain, on 09 October 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

Omtose is really bugging me, not only did they disappear from the thread after an aggressive start on D1, when they do post, and they only do that once per day, they just say: KF.

D2: Omtose drops in, says they're willing to vote KF, doesn't actually do so , offers no content on KF, or anything else, and the case just hangs there and stagnates.

D3: No content, just a vote for KF. Says they'll be back in a couple of hours, nothing happens, and the case just hands there again.

I don't think he ever contributed anything on KF, besides a showing willingness to vore or an actual vote. They just went along the tide, as KF was mentioned by others. Never on D1 did they even interact or mention KF.

Demelain, on 09 October 2015 - 07:27 AM, said:

Hands = hangs

And also, Omtose, do something. You're stagnating the case and wasting another day.

vote Omtose

Karosis, on 09 October 2015 - 01:44 PM, said:

You guys think Omtose is trying to skirt by?

Lets put more pressure on him then.

Vote Omtose

[Ryllandaras]

Monok Ochem, on 15 October 2015 - 01:48 PM, said:

So far this is a lot like what I did yesterday Ryll

But I don't think our views marry up. You're opinion is biased so I'm doing my own.

Almost finished.

[Ryllandaras]

After arguing more with Liosan, Karosis removes his vote from Omtose.

In fact, Liosan quotes Karosis' vote out of Dem, Aparal and Karosis as the one he doesn't like. Here it is. He also agrees with you not answering my question.

Liosan, on 09 October 2015 - 03:47 PM, said:

Karosis, on 09 October 2015 - 01:44 PM, said:

You guys think Omtose is trying to skirt by?

Lets put more pressure on him then.

Vote Omtose

i don't like this at all.

first as a standalone post it feels like a drive by. we have like 8-9 hours left in the day, i think the time for pressure votes may have come and gone, especially since omtose hasn't showed up since his own drive by vote (which is pretty scummy too, tbh). almost everyone has voted. karosis, you have only real 2 posts this whole game. 2 posts and then a "pressure vote" to tie up KF and omtose to the point where no matter where I vote, someone has to switch their vote to get a lynch. this is after never mentioning omtose previously...until Dem makes a case and votes omtose. stalling?

Dem has legitimate questions for omtose (which others have already mentioned, myself included), but karosis hops on to even things out fairly quickly and without a lot of reasoning. his promised read up on Ryll (which would have been worthwhile) came down to "summary of other cases is good, ryll is scummy". even when ryll directly responded to karosis, we get an omtose vote instead of a reply.

this looks like deflection intended to stall the KF lynch imo, which just reinforces my suspicions of him.

vote kadagar fant

[Karosis]

Didn't ignore it.

Maybe didn't answer exactly to you but I remember saying somewhere that I was not 100% on Liosan and those posts were there as I was searching for a reasonable explanation as to why Em was doing what he was doing. And guess what, my gut feeling that Liosan wasn't scum was right.