[amphibian]

Why would I give more money to a group of people who keep hurting the people around them?

What makes that a better idea than using that 15% of a city's budget to fund schools, medical care, social services, and infrastructure?

[Primateus]

Azath Vitr (D, on 25 May 2022 - 11:18 PM, said:

amphibian, on 25 May 2022 - 11:04 PM, said:

And the police who "engaged" with the shooter made a decision to not risk themselves further to stop the children and teachers from being hurt or dying. That's a level of cowardice that isn't going to be fixed by more guns or money.

... but it might be fixed by (armed) drones.

Well, if that's a solution, why not just put automated gatling turrets in the school hallways set to target any sudden move?

[Gorefest]

Please dont give the Republicans ideas.

[Macros]

Ok Nico, so you claim there are 400 million guns, we can't get them off the street.
Give me an argument that says you just keep on selling em.


I'm waiting for a reason that you can't stop selling guns to teenagers, or some kind of background check.

So the gun pile is there. Why are you against stopping it growing?

[Gorefest]

Nico said in an earlier post he used to sell guns himself. So I hardly think we can expect an objective perspective on this from Nico's mouth. Undoubtedly elbow deep in the NRA backside.

[Maark Abbott]

Primateus, on 26 May 2022 - 06:26 AM, said:

Azath Vitr (D, on 25 May 2022 - 11:18 PM, said:

amphibian, on 25 May 2022 - 11:04 PM, said:

And the police who "engaged" with the shooter made a decision to not risk themselves further to stop the children and teachers from being hurt or dying. That's a level of cowardice that isn't going to be fixed by more guns or money.

... but it might be fixed by (armed) drones.

Well, if that's a solution, why not just put automated gatling turrets in the school hallways set to target any sudden move?

Why not an ED209 milspec? Proven to never go wrong.

[Gorefest]

I saw Robocop in the cinema the other day for its 35th anniversary and I wholeheartedly second this suggestion. Visionary film.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'- cops went into the school to get their own children

- then retreated outside and set up crowd control

- ignored patents begging them to act

- tackled (and tased?) parents who tried to go in to save their own children'

(21) Ana Mardoll on Twitter: "😩 Sorry, just so I'm clear: - cops went into the school to get their own children - then retreated outside and set up crowd control - ignored patents begging them to act - tackled (and tased?) parents who tried to go in to save their own children Correct?? #Uvalde" / Twitter

'The Uvalde City School District has its own police department — staffed with a chief, five cops, and a security guard[...]

"The idea that a standard armed school police officer is gonna stop someone in that situation has proven not to be true, time and time again," [...] police and security guards are often the first casualties in mass shooting events.

[...]

Lawmakers concerned about bullying leading to violence in schools might consider that members of law enforcement themselves are often the ones bullying students. "Cops are authorized to use force in a way that teachers and school administrators are not," [...] "If administrators increasingly turn to on-site police officers to discipline students, that means more kids will be handcuffed, Tased and beaten."

[...] "So what are those [school] police officers actually doing all day every day? Since they're not preventing school shootings? They're harassing kids, searching kids, waging a war on drugs, engaged in criminalizing disciplinary problems. [...]

"There's no evidence that we're aware of, would love to see it if it exists, of having police in schools as a way to make schools safer or prevent school shootings," [...] In schools with police, kids are [...] "[...] more likely to be referred to the justice system, the so-called school to prison pipeline, for behavior that is not necessarily appropriate to be referred to the justice system. We're talking about behavior that years ago, when I was in school, would be more likely to be handled in the principal's office."'

Cops Didn't Stop the Uvalde, Texas, School Shooting

[Aptorian]

The mistake they made was not hiring a School SWAT team as well.

[QuickTidal]

Azath Vitr (D, on 26 May 2022 - 02:19 PM, said:

'- cops went into the school to get their own children

- then retreated outside and set up crowd control

- ignored patents begging them to act

- tackled (and tased?) parents who tried to go in to save their own children'

(21) Ana Mardoll on Twitter: "😩 Sorry, just so I'm clear: - cops went into the school to get their own children - then retreated outside and set up crowd control - ignored patents begging them to act - tackled (and tased?) parents who tried to go in to save their own children Correct?? #Uvalde" / Twitter

'The Uvalde City School District has its own police department — staffed with a chief, five cops, and a security guard[...]

"The idea that a standard armed school police officer is gonna stop someone in that situation has proven not to be true, time and time again," [...] police and security guards are often the first casualties in mass shooting events.

[...]

Lawmakers concerned about bullying leading to violence in schools might consider that members of law enforcement themselves are often the ones bullying students. "Cops are authorized to use force in a way that teachers and school administrators are not," [...] "If administrators increasingly turn to on-site police officers to discipline students, that means more kids will be handcuffed, Tased and beaten."

[...] "So what are those [school] police officers actually doing all day every day? Since they're not preventing school shootings? They're harassing kids, searching kids, waging a war on drugs, engaged in criminalizing disciplinary problems. [...]

"There's no evidence that we're aware of, would love to see it if it exists, of having police in schools as a way to make schools safer or prevent school shootings," [...] In schools with police, kids are [...] "[...] more likely to be referred to the justice system, the so-called school to prison pipeline, for behavior that is not necessarily appropriate to be referred to the justice system. We're talking about behavior that years ago, when I was in school, would be more likely to be handled in the principal's office."'

Cops Didn't Stop the Uvalde, Texas, School Shooting

This is where the "good guy with a gun" narrative falls flat. When even those TASKED with being the good guy with the gun fail to do anything....

ACAB.

[amphibian]

I think it's super hard to shoot people, even if you're paid to functionally be that person. It's something armies worldwide spend millions and billions of hours every year doing and it still wrecks people. I don't fully blame a cop for fleeing the scene from an active shooter. That self-preservation desire is a real monster.

However, the deal being offered (and which was in place) by the Republicans is that these people are armed and hired to do exactly that series of decisions. And they don't. No matter how much money or equipment they get.

The deal doesn't work. It didn't work decades ago and it won't work decades from now.

We need to get guns gone. That's the solution. That's the only thing that works.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

amphibian, on 26 May 2022 - 04:48 PM, said:

I think it's super hard to shoot people, even if you're paid to functionally be that person. It's something armies worldwide spend millions and billions of hours every year doing and it still wrecks people. I don't fully blame a cop for fleeing the scene from an active shooter. That self-preservation desire is a real monster.

However, the deal being offered (and which was in place) by the Republicans is that these people are armed and hired to do exactly that series of decisions. And they don't. No matter how much money or equipment they get.

The deal doesn't work. It didn't work decades ago and it won't work decades from now.

We need to get guns gone. That's the solution. That's the only thing that works.

Logically I might expect the right-wing response to be 'if they really believed in Go* they'd have charged in, confident in the righteousness of their task and the fact that Go* would guarantee them victory---or at worst they'd go to Valhalla Heaven'.

Or that the problem was the security guard at the door didn't have their own semi-automatic assault rifle, or body armor effective against rifles, so the assault rifle's greater effective range and firing rate almost certainly would have made it a waste of a life to stay, especially since it probably looked like the shooter had body armor on.

Haven't seen that yet, but here's Ted Cruz's solution:

'“have one door into and out of the school…armed police officers at that door” — [...] “if that happened” “the armed police officers could have taken him out and we’d have 19 children/2children still alive”'

(19) Ted Cruz (@tedcruz) / Twitter

[Aptorian]

QuickTidal, on 26 May 2022 - 04:28 PM, said:

This is where the "good guy with a gun" narrative falls flat. When even those TASKED with being the good guy with the gun fail to do anything....

ACAB.

Is Tiste Simeon a bastard, QT?

[Nicodimas]

amphibian, on 26 May 2022 - 04:48 PM, said:

I think it's super hard to shoot people, even if you're paid to functionally be that person. It's something armies worldwide spend millions and billions of hours every year doing and it still wrecks people. I don't fully blame a cop for fleeing the scene from an active shooter. That self-preservation desire is a real monster.

However, the deal being offered (and which was in place) by the Republicans is that these people are armed and hired to do exactly that series of decisions. And they don't. No matter how much money or equipment they get.

The deal doesn't work. It didn't work decades ago and it won't work decades from now.

We need to get guns gone. That's the solution. That's the only thing that works.

This is scenario that's not realistic.

It's entirely more possible to train people well and change the layout of 117,000 schools.

Then it is to disarm 400,000,000 guns. People will die rather than lay down. You should ask why.. before jumping to conclusions.

People remember incidents past and present when guns are forcefully removed. They ain't going to just give them up.

There lives are at stake.

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This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 26 May 2022 - 05:38 PM

[Nicodimas]

Yes it's terribly sad that in this incident people failed to protect others that doesn't mean with different training now people won't in the future. As with anything people fail. We learn. We improve based off that.

We can do more to defend children.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 26 May 2022 - 05:42 PM

[amphibian]

What improvement has been written in the blood of children here? People are already dying now.

What improvement is found in turning elementary schools into fire hazards guarded by police who are much more dangerous to the children than they are to active shooters?

What in the nine hells do you, a white boy from Arizona, get from posting bullshit memes about Wounded Knee?

[QuickTidal]

Aptorian, on 26 May 2022 - 05:27 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 26 May 2022 - 04:28 PM, said:

This is where the "good guy with a gun" narrative falls flat. When even those TASKED with being the good guy with the gun fail to do anything....

ACAB.

Is Tiste Simeon a bastard, QT?

Of course not. Nor is my brother in law, or my childhood friend who are/were also cops.

The point is that so very many of them are.

Are we going to nitpick the phrase now? Come on dude.

EDIT: more to the point, the rotten apples spoil the bunch.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 26 May 2022 - 06:01 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Nicodimas, on 26 May 2022 - 05:37 PM, said:

amphibian, on 26 May 2022 - 04:48 PM, said:

I think it's super hard to shoot people, even if you're paid to functionally be that person. It's something armies worldwide spend millions and billions of hours every year doing and it still wrecks people. I don't fully blame a cop for fleeing the scene from an active shooter. That self-preservation desire is a real monster.

However, the deal being offered (and which was in place) by the Republicans is that these people are armed and hired to do exactly that series of decisions. And they don't. No matter how much money or equipment they get.

The deal doesn't work. It didn't work decades ago and it won't work decades from now.

We need to get guns gone. That's the solution. That's the only thing that works.

This is scenario that's not realistic.

It's entirely more possible to train people well and change the layout of 117,000 schools.

Then it is to disarm 400,000,000 guns. People will die rather than lay down. You should ask why.. before jumping to conclusions.

People remember incidents past and present when guns are forcefully removed. They ain't going to just give them up.

There lives are at stake.

... any examples of a comparable massacre being carried out by the US government against, y'know... white people?... in the name of gun control?

To be fair, perhaps school guards could be recruited from the ranks of military (or police) veterans who have actually killed people. Or psychopaths. Or yes receive extensive training (perhaps in hyperrealistic virtual or augmented reality) to kill with minimal hesitation. Though there's still the issue of being willing to risk their own lives when running away seems like an option for them. But---at least for some people---'training' can fix that; and others may not need it. Fanatical right-wing extremists willing to die in combat? Why not have them policing our schools... especially in minority areas. What could go wrong....

One advantage of remote controlled drones or robots---it may be easier to pull the trigger. (As well as having the option to use 'less lethal' weapons like rubber bullets, tasers, pepper spray, smoke bombs.) But turning doorknobs may be an issue, if there aren't always windows that can be smashed through (if the shooter doesn't have time to barricade all the windows).

SWAT drone smashes windows, opens doors, and negotiates with suspects

Even if the school guard thought he couldn't compete with the assault rifle at range, he could have followed Cruz's logic and gotten behind the door, or gone somewhere inside that would provide cover and be in the shooter's likely path (using radio to coordinate with police outside the building in case the shooter chose a different door or managed to get through a window).

[Tiste Simeon]

Aptorian, on 26 May 2022 - 05:27 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 26 May 2022 - 04:28 PM, said:

This is where the "good guy with a gun" narrative falls flat. When even those TASKED with being the good guy with the gun fail to do anything....

ACAB.

Is Tiste Simeon a bastard, QT?

Yeah he's a tremendous douchenozzle!

[QuickTidal]

Tiste Simeon, on 26 May 2022 - 06:49 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 26 May 2022 - 05:27 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 26 May 2022 - 04:28 PM, said:

This is where the "good guy with a gun" narrative falls flat. When even those TASKED with being the good guy with the gun fail to do anything....

ACAB.

Is Tiste Simeon a bastard, QT?

Yeah he's a tremendous douchenozzle!

I hope you weren't offended by my using this saying. It's one of those things that quite obviously doesn't apply to the good eggs like you.