[Andorion]

Silencer, on 03 October 2017 - 12:53 PM, said:

It never ceases to amaze me that many pro gun advocates insist that gun control cannot help - not because it doesn't work on some basic level (as seen elsewhere in the world - it does) but because America is a special case. They literally argue that America has problems that run so deep in their collective psyche, that gun control will fail.

In other words, their argument is that Americans are inherently more violent and hateful than every other nation on the planet.
Sometimes I wonder if they don't have a point...

It's obviously not the main argument they make, but it does get made a lot.

Raise this with a gun control advocate and the racists come out. Numerous points about how the US has a large black population who are "inherently more violent" and stuff. Just this morning I saw a comment about how the US has a large land border with a "third world country" while Britain and Australia are islands. They literally feel like they are besieged, threatened, in their own country and guns are part of their last stand.

This post has been edited by Andorion: 03 October 2017 - 12:57 PM

[QuickTidal]

Silencer, on 03 October 2017 - 12:53 PM, said:

It never ceases to amaze me that many pro gun advocates insist that gun control cannot help - not because it doesn't work on some basic level (as seen elsewhere in the world - it does) but because America is a special case. They literally argue that America has problems that run so deep in their collective psyche, that gun control will fail.

In other words, their argument is that Americans are inherently more violent and hateful than every other nation on the planet.
Sometimes I wonder if they don't have a point...

It's obviously not the main argument they make, but it does get made a lot.

Yep. Similar to climate change denial. It's the old chestnut of "It won't work, so there is no point in even trying. Why bother?"

But yeah, any time you bring up say Australia's 1996 gun control decision, and how there have been no mass shootings since then....you will face an American who brings up the differing populations and the amount of guns as a reason "not to bother".

It's fucking reprehensibly obtuse.

[HoosierDaddy]

See every post on gun-control I've ever made. The fundamental philosophical difference between the enshrined 2nd amendment and modern gun culture are total. "A well regulated militia being necessary" is not someone with 50 tricked out semi-automatics -> full automatic weapons; isn't a well regulated militia. The militia is the national guard now.

Anyway, this guy obviously planned this, but there is seemingly no ideological, political, religious, etc. motive. Could be mental health and someone going way down the rabbit hole unknowingly.

[Gust Hubb]

Tsundoku, on 30 June 2017 - 10:01 PM, said:

Lady Bliss, on 30 June 2017 - 05:54 PM, said:

Tsundoku, on 30 June 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:

:doh:http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/trump-is-the-most-pro-gun-president-in-modern-times-but-nra-wants-more/news-story/bc951674d65a3c1d9ff63be2415f2f61Maybe if prominent pro-gun people had someone they loved killed by someone who shouldn't have had a gun ...I wouldn't wish that on (almost) anyone, but I sincerely believe it would only take a close personal tragedy for these barking fucking lunatics to change their minds even a small amount.

After living amongst the gun crazed loons in Texas, I can assure you that it would have the opposite effect. They believe that if more people carried guns they could prevent crimes.

Yeah, because that's worked so well previously. Where's that single panel comic of the bookcase with all the fairy stories including something like "the one where a trained armed civilian stops a massacre"?

worry, on 30 June 2017 - 07:42 PM, said:

Well the NRA went full fascist just a couple days ago, so I tend to agree with Lady Bliss. They are a few steps beyond hopeless, and only getting more dangerous.https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2017/06/check-out-the-new-nra-ad-that-stops-just-short-of.html

Holy crap! Why are so many Americans so fucking stupid? What is it about your country that does this to people? Big question I know.

EDIT: that Bobcat Goldthwait audio still has me chuckling.

Fundamentalist Christianity

[HoosierDaddy]

Errr, no. Lots of hard core Christians are anti-violence. In fact, it is part of their creed.

Hunting rifles, bows, etc...? Ok. Those should be allowed.

Private arsenals? Not so much.

[Nicodimas]

@ Andorian: America has a Narco-State to the south with a completely unsecured border.. think prohibition was bad ? Imagine arming the cartels with guns, weapons, etc the could import into the US black market. People seem to totally discount this reality, that this wouldn’t be a problem. Fantasy-land.

It will be interesting on slide locks are going to be brought into the discussion, but the same trick can be done with a semi and a rubberband except shooting from the hip..https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m5XzQ1BS7gU

On the other side of this argument is remember this situation may have been prevented with a different legal ruling so hopefully we hit new headway there.

I forgot the Aurora case name.. someone here in law would know, but since Aurora like situations are one offs corporations essentially the corps aren’t responsible for security relating to this level incidents. Therefore, it isn’t something they have to plan for... as they are unpreventable and unique I think what the ruling on Aurora suggested. Please correct me if that’s the right one. Imagine counter-snipers at concerts...

On the flip side people would lose it if they had to go though millimeter level dectors, unless there is some more sci-fi level system there are probably hundreds of these in the US with these level of environments.. and you know there’s going to be that ahole copycat.

The other part is why don’t we have videos of this guy entering the casino, dragging this luggage in.. there’s some info being suppressed. Manifesto maybe ?

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 03 October 2017 - 06:10 PM

[Gust Hubb]

HoosierDaddy, on 03 October 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

Errr, no. Lots of hard core Christians are anti-violence. In fact, it is part of their creed.

Hunting rifles, bows, etc...? Ok. Those should be allowed.

Private arsenals? Not so much.

Wouldn't have guessed that growing up as one in that culture.

[Vengeance]

Nicodimas, on 03 October 2017 - 06:08 PM, said:

@ Andorian: America has a Narco-State to the south with a completely unsecured border.. think prohibition was bad ? Imagine arming the cartels with guns, weapons, etc the could import into the US black market. People seem to totally discount this reality, that this wouldn’t be a problem. Fantasy-land.

It will be interesting on slide locks are going to be brought into the discussion, but the same trick can be done with a semi and a rubberband except shooting from the hip..https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m5XzQ1BS7gU

On the other side of this argument is remember this situation may have been prevented with a different legal ruling so hopefully we hit new headway there.

I forgot the Aurora case name.. someone here in law would know, but since Aurora like situations are one offs corporations essentially the corps aren’t responsible for security relating to this level incidents. Therefore, it isn’t something they have to plan for... as they are unpreventable and unique I think what the ruling on Aurora suggested. Please correct me if that’s the right one. Imagine counter-snipers at concerts...

On the flip side people would lose it if they had to go though millimeter level dectors, unless there is some more sci-fi level system there are probably hundreds of these in the US with these level of environments.. and you know there’s going to be that ahole copycat.

The other part is why don’t we have videos of this guy entering the casino, dragging this luggage in.. there’s some info being suppressed. Manifesto maybe ?

Nico,

Mexico is no more a Narco state then the United States is. We have more drugs and more gangs then Mexico does. The border is far from unsecured. It is very secured. That is why Cartels are bribing border guards.Briding border guards
https://www.nytimes....der-bribes.html

As for cartels arming people in the US black market. WTF are on you. The US is the worlds largest gun maker and We are the ones who are shipping guns across the border to Mexico. Why the fuck do you need to imagine a sharp shooter at a concert. There just was a fucking sharp shooter at a concert. Nevada basically has 0 gun laws. The only thing you can't buy is a fully auto and you need to get the sheriff to sign off on a conceal to carry. It is an open carry state and you can buy any top of gun with no restrictions.

This isn't a NRA conspiracy website. There is no reason for someone to have a semiautomatic weapon. If the government is coming after you it isn't going to do you any good. Your bad guys arguement is complete racist bullshit. We are the only 'Civilized' I use that term loosely country where this shit happens.

Gun control saves lives. If you are against sensible Gun control then you know what. You are ProKiller. You are for the killing of children.
https://www.sciencealert.com/studies-show-evidence-that-stricter-gun-control-works-to-save-lives

There is no buts or what ifs. It is actually one of the few things that are straight forward. You can like guns all you want you can own guns all you want. But if you are not for sensible gun control..i.e NO semiautomatic weapons then you are pro killing kids and people at concerts. Period.

[Vengeance]

Australia can do it so can we


The NRA is so out of touch with America and only operate as a gun lobby to encourage people to buy more guys. It should be declared a terrorist support organization and banned.

[Vengeance]

Pro life party my asshole.

[Vengeance]

Vengeance, on 03 October 2017 - 07:11 PM, said:

Australia can do it so can we


The NRA is so out of touch with America and only operate as a gun lobby to encourage people to buy more guys. It should be declared a terrorist support organization and banned.

Calling for a new civil war


Is it really the price of Freedom.

[Vengeance]

Ok I am done. Sorry about the rants.

[worry]

Vengeance already handled Nico's misguided claims, but even in the areas where cartels have significant power, where do you think they get their guns? Who do you think is manufacturing them?

Anyway, to reiterate from posting about a previous mass shooting event, the vast majority of Americans -- including Republicans and even a strong majority of NRA members (over 70%) -- are pro-sensible gun control policies like universal background checks, and bans for the mentally ill. Even more "controversial" forms of gun control have majorities on the pro-side. This is pretty much 100% a money-in-politics issue. We can't forget that the U.S. did have a federal assault weapons ban for a decade, and the GOP let it expire in 2004. And while it didn't solve our country's gun issues wholesale, it did have an affect on assault weapon use specifically. And a more comprehensive, targeted bill that would deal with high capacity magazines, things like that, on top of an assault weapons ban, would work wonders.

Here's some data on public feelings towards gun control. It does show a partisan gap, obviously, and some support from people in both parties for some dumb ideas...but more than that you see majorities of the general public support gun control:

[HoosierDaddy]

Gust Hubb, on 03 October 2017 - 06:49 PM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 03 October 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

Errr, no. Lots of hard core Christians are anti-violence. In fact, it is part of their creed.

Hunting rifles, bows, etc...? Ok. Those should be allowed.

Private arsenals? Not so much.

Wouldn't have guessed that growing up as one in that culture.

It's fun to pervert the Bible isn't it? Jesus was all about arming people to fight the Romans.

Was waiting for Nico: Paid and delivered with anarcho-libertarianism: Screw everyone else!

[worry]

Nobody called him a racist.

[Vengeance]

More positive NRA news



https://www.reddit.c...C5C&sh=1f1ffffe

[Vengeance]

Briar King, on 03 October 2017 - 08:58 PM, said:

I know but it reads like it.

“Your bad guy argument is complete racist bullshit”.

I’m not trying to defend his take just as someone who has had this thrown in their face I felt like I should bring it up.

Ed: acknowledges that I could be sensitive about it now since then and read more in it.

The argument that is made that good guys with guys stop bad guys with guns is an argument originally based on racism.

[worry]

Speaking of race, here's some interesting data on when it was that partisan "gun control" beliefs (as a generic term, not when you break it down into individual policies as the chart above did) became so haywire: 2008.


https://twitter.com/...882711814369284


What happened in 2008 that was different? Like even different compared to other times a Democrat won the presidency?

[worry]

And in terms of actual sales:

[amphibian]

The ideas of "who is a bad person", "what makes them bad", and "who gets to decide that" need to be examined very closely.

The NRA and the big guns rights organizations have mostly been taken over by John Birch Society types. And the people they keep posturing about individually confronting via violence or threat of violence have this weird propensity to be brown or black, over and over again. Keeps happening to the degree that yeah, most super ardent gun positions have a ton of racists, specifically white supremacists, advocating for them.

Because the right to own guns as these people see it isn't actually about confronting or revolting against oppressive governments, oppressive police, or oppressive institutions, it's about preserving them and the racist status quo that exists now.