[LinearPhilosopher]

Malankazooie, on 27 February 2018 - 09:57 AM, said:

If the arming teachers idea is implemented think about all of the orientation presentations that will have to performed before teachers and students across the country. What possibly could go wrong?


This is one of the first videos I remember went viral back in the day on YouTube, back in the day when you got a link in an email chain (remember those?) from a friend who was forwarding it on. Sometimes you have to dust off the classics to get across how ludicrous so called modern ideas are.

Also, does anyone remember ogrish.com back in the day? Man, that site had some disturbing shit.

i can see the headlines and statistics now...

[Silencer]

https://www.nytimes....ia-tax-cut.html

So, this is happening. Lt Gov of a state senate threatening a private company with legislation over its decision to cut ties to the NRA. It's 1am and I need to go to bed but what the holy fuckall, America?

I mean, the number of messy, disturbing things in that sentence is all the more concerning for the fact that this is, at it's most basic, normal. It's no different to companies *getting* tax cuts for supporting a political party, it's no different to states banning other private companies from selling competing products due to back-room deals, but again I'm more shocked by the sheer brazen approach being taken. All the stuff that's normally at least partially "behind the curtain" is coming out under this administration and it's both excellent and just sickening.

[QuickTidal]

The problem with the "teachers should be armed" conversation is that it's a TACTIC. Plain and simple. And it's working. The GOP KNOWS its a shit talking point that won't amount to anything...but it's being used to try to derail ANY other discussion about gun control AND keep the heat off their party boy in office with regards to everything else going on (Mueller). It's a deflection so ridiculous that everyone wants to talk about it...and if you try shutting it aside you'd get this:

"What about arming teachers?"
"Arming teachers is obviously a stupid idea so I won't comment on it"
"Oh, so now you won't explain why it's bad to arm them?"

...which FORCES the talking point to be had by the people who SHOULDN'T fall for it, lest they be called out for ignoring it.

It's a vicious cycle. The GOP and gun lobby know EXACTLY what they are doing. "Arm the teachers" is the latest tactic to get everyone to talk about stupidity instead of REAL talk about control.

that said, these kids in the NeverAgain movement are NOT falling for it thankfully.

[Nevyn]

If you want the messed up gun culture in the states summed up in a news story, here it is.

Delta Airlines used to have a deal with the NRA (that is a gun sales lobby group), for discounted fares. Already fairly messed up.

Not surprisingly, in the wake of this shooting, Delta announced they would terminate said deal. Again, that just means they won't give a discounted fare to NRA members.

And now, state legislators in Georgia are looking to cancel a change to airline fuel taxes to financially punish Delta. For not giving discounts to NRA members. And they aren't doing it quietly with backroom deals, they are threatening it loudly.

Six degrees away from anything to do with guns. The Delta action moves no one closer to any gun control measure. But apparently now it is a good idea for government to blackmail private corporations into providing discounts for like minded people.

[QuickTidal]

Nevyn, on 27 February 2018 - 03:46 PM, said:

Six degrees away from anything to do with guns. The Delta action moves no one closer to any gun control measure. But apparently now it is a good idea for government to blackmail private corporations into providing discounts for like minded people.

That is completely fucked.

[Macros]

Again I ask

At what stage do the American people say enough is enough and get rid of the entire lot of them?

[Obdigore]

Macros, on 27 February 2018 - 04:09 PM, said:

Again I ask

At what stage do the American people say enough is enough and get rid of the entire lot of them?

Right after our preachers stop claiming that abortions are against gods will.

I personally have a number of family members that vote republican literally only because they keep promising to outlaw abortion, and their priests have claimed for 20 years that abortion is murder.

There is a culture, nay a cult, of anti-intellectualism in this country. People seem to think that their intentional ignorance is as valid things like facts and evidence.

It is endorsed by a subset of politicians and rich people, because it makes people extremely easy to control, as Russia has recently found out.

As Worry has been posting, it seems like the generation reaching 18 now has the tool set to deal with stuff like fake news and propaganda, but the older ones (including my generation) certainly are hit or miss on those abilities.

I can only hope that as the elderly die off, things change.

[QuickTidal]

Obdigore, on 27 February 2018 - 04:22 PM, said:

As Worry has been posting, it seems like the generation reaching 18 now has the tool set to deal with stuff like fake news and propaganda,

This is my favourite bit. I love it.

The gun lobby, GOP, Trumpsters and anyone else who has been using social media, CNN soundbites, twitter, and any other (modern) venue to spread falsities, propaganda, and attack anyone across the aisle from them...are being utterly schooled in that venue.

These kids are like "Hey, old white man? You may be able to use this shit to fleece other old, uninformed people easily (and have for years)...but this is where we LIVE 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. This is OUR territory, and we can run circles around you on it. Bring it on Grampa."

Like the "crisis actor" shit was shut down in like HOURS later with the kids basically dominating the conversation on all those venues to show the GOP's ass on the subject. I was impressed.

If there is any hope in your country...it's these kids or future ones like them.

[Abyss]

It is pretty amazing to see the students in action. I hope the movement has more legs than most.

The pressure on companies to drop NRA discounts isn't a waste... it sends messages to various levels that dealing with gun advocates may become more costly than profitable. This causes gun advocates to lose influence. Not a bad thing.
Far from a sweeping blow in favor of gun control, but it signifies a cultural shift. Winchester and Smith n Wesson won't care, but Delta, Facebook, and Amazon will, and they're bigger.

[Malankazooie]

LinearPhilosopher, on 27 February 2018 - 02:06 PM, said:

Malankazooie, on 27 February 2018 - 09:57 AM, said:

If the arming teachers idea is implemented think about all of the orientation presentations that will have to performed before teachers and students across the country. What possibly could go wrong?


This is one of the first videos I remember went viral back in the day on YouTube, back in the day when you got a link in an email chain (remember those?) from a friend who was forwarding it on. Sometimes you have to dust off the classics to get across how ludicrous so called modern ideas are.

Also, does anyone remember ogrish.com back in the day? Man, that site had some disturbing shit.

i can see the headlines and statistics now...

The headlines will be as easy as shooting fish in a barrel (no pun intended). Instead of "Smokin' in Boys' Room" it will be "Shootin' in the Boys' Room".

[Obdigore]

Nevyn, on 27 February 2018 - 03:46 PM, said:

If you want the messed up gun culture in the states summed up in a news story, here it is.

Delta Airlines used to have a deal with the NRA (that is a gun sales lobby group), for discounted fares. Already fairly messed up.

Not surprisingly, in the wake of this shooting, Delta announced they would terminate said deal. Again, that just means they won't give a discounted fare to NRA members.

And now, state legislators in Georgia are looking to cancel a change to airline fuel taxes to financially punish Delta. For not giving discounts to NRA members. And they aren't doing it quietly with backroom deals, they are threatening it loudly.

They did cancel it, I believe.

You know what else that does? That torpedo's Atlanta's chance at getting Amazon second HQ. They were still in the running, but if your legislators are this emotionally capricious, no businessperson, regardless of the company they work for, is going to take a chance.

Businesses, once they reach a certain size, are conservative by nature, in that they don't much like change. What this state is doing is signaling to any large businesses that they shouldn't move to the state of Georgia at all.

[Nicodimas]

QuickTidal, on 27 February 2018 - 03:01 PM, said:

It's a vicious cycle. The GOP and gun lobby know EXACTLY what they are doing. "Arm the teachers" is the latest tactic to get everyone to talk about stupidity instead of REAL talk about control.

that said, these kids in the NeverAgain movement are NOT falling for it thankfully.

Right? The cops showed up how many times, the FBI had tips— the very cops outside sat outside and didn’t react.

Solid article about self defence:

https://www.policeon...nemy-is-denial/

[Macros]

Solid article.

You do know that police one is owned by Praetorian group right?

The article is such a load of bullshit, it claims that arming teachers is the same as fire detection and suppression systems. Handing a teacher a Glock is the same as installing a sprinkler system.

It patently is not. A sprinkler system can not be turned into a weapon (unless you are Keanu Reeves fighting demons). It's such a flawed analogy I can't even think of a suitably hyperbolic metaphor for how fucking stupid comparison it is.

Here something to take into that article and read it again Nico.

I accept the zero fire deaths in schools, I have NO problems with that.

But take these facts into the article:

A gun can now down hundreds in minutes, there is no evacuation time.
A fire takes time to spread. The smoke alarm goes off well before a fire reaches dangerous proportions.
When someone yells "GUN!" And the first shot is fired (equivalent to the alarm) the dangerous proportion is there. People are dying.
It then throws in a totally bullshit analogy of having a fireman in uniform with no fire fighting equipment.
As someone who actually has been through proper fire fighting training let me tell you that a fire that will endanger lives? Don't even think about lifting the fire extinguisher, run like fuck, you won't do a thing to stop it.

The reason fire deaths are not comparable? How many kids have started fires in schools? Clearly not that many because matches are fucking easy to get.
Starting a fire that will rage out of control quickly enough to endanger life in a building designed for quick exit in such an event actually takes a bit of planning and knowledge.
Picking up a gun and going apeshit does not.

So, if kids were burning down schools on the reg you can bet you last fucking dollar laws would change quickly.

You know why there are such tight fire regulations in place in public buildings?

Every time there is a big fire and people die. Laws change, to make People safer, to REMOVE the danger from their lives. To ensure such a tragedy does not occur again (see grenfell tower and the subsequent inspection and upgrade of cladding on an awful lot of housing, and I fully expect a tightening on communal landlord fire safety regs soon)
Piper alpha? Changed the North sea oil game entirely.
Ocean ranger? Changed semi submersible rig design the world over.
This is what happens in every other industry, except guns. Guns are dangerous.
Asbestos is dangerous, so it was banned
CFCs were damaging the ozone, so they were banned
Things that are dangerous get banned, or their use and access is highly controlled.
Hell, fucking agricultural fertilisers composition was changed because some assholes used it to make bombs.
Why can't you get it into your head. Guns fucking kill people, it is their sole purpose, they need to be regulated, like they are in every other westernised fucking country, you know all the ones that don't hhave mass shootings EVERY WEEK


Columbine
Sandy hook
Vegas
Florida

Nothing has changed.
There has been a tragedy. What caused it? A mental bastard was able to buy an AR15.
Stop selling people guns.

[Cause]

Very simple question. Do we give guns to any teacher that wants one or would we want them to be screened, undergo background checks and receive training first.

And if we do why the double standard

[Obdigore]

Macros, on 27 February 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

There has been a tragedy. What caused it? A mental bastard was able to buy an AR15.

I'm not sure we can say they are 'mental'. The white power groups are using the same tactics that other extremists are using, to recruit young men who are, for some reason(s), on the 'outs'. They then groom them and give them a sense of brotherhood and slowly inch them further and further towards viewing extremist actions as acceptable, even desirable.

This is literally how our brains work. They aren't broken, mentally, they are set on this path on purpose. Every person who helped them along the way should be arrested and charged with each and every murder these people commit.

As to 'The FBI didn't do anything' - The FBI deals with thousands of cases like that each year. In the vast majority, nothing is done. Remember that this person was a legal gun owner until the moment he started pumping rounds into his former class mates, he was trained via a grant from the NRA, and the NRA would have defended his rights tooth and nail to own as many firearms as he wanted, if he was arrested the day before committing this atrocity.

[worry]

Man, imagine if the 2nd Amendment guaranteed us the broad right to gird our homes for defense, and the asbestos lobby entirely owned one of two major American political parties and paid them to argue that using asbestos in construction was an individual right people (including, of course, corporations) could use to defend from fire. The same people would be frothing at the mouth to prevent us from treating asbestos like every other country does.

[Nevyn]

Obdigore, on 27 February 2018 - 04:55 PM, said:

They did cancel it, I believe.

You know what else that does? That torpedo's Atlanta's chance at getting Amazon second HQ. They were still in the running, but if your legislators are this emotionally capricious, no businessperson, regardless of the company they work for, is going to take a chance.

Businesses, once they reach a certain size, are conservative by nature, in that they don't much like change. What this state is doing is signaling to any large businesses that they shouldn't move to the state of Georgia at all.

Given the president, if Amazon wants to avoid capricious government, their only city choice remaining is Toronto.

And I very much doubt they are going to Toronto.

Although it would be awesome if they picked that and said "because Trump".

Then again, since he IS capricious, that would probably end up resulting in revenge of some sort.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 27 February 2018 - 09:55 PM

[worry]

Looks like some good has already come of this: https://gizmodo.com/...arkl-1823365098

[worry]

That's good in a "take what we can get" kind of way, if it happens. Dick's Sporting Goods is unilaterally endings its sale of AR-15 and assault weapon type guns (I know some folks like to split hairs on this), as well as high capacity magazines, and will also raise gun-buying age to 21 across the board.

[Garak]

I'm not 100% sure what Dick's Sporting Goods sells (sport equipment going by that name I'd guess?) but what in Hood's Balls does Sporting Goods have in common with assault rifles and other such weapons? And if the answer is hunting, I wonder if the word overkill is still in use.

I don't get this insane love for guns.