[D'rek]

You guys are talking about regular guns again, but I'm still talking about my hypothetical model. You mention kids, but not everyone has kids. Not everyone has neighbours that a bullet going through the walls could hit. Obviously legislation can't be made to apply to individual circumstances and needs to be broad, but I'm not talking about laws, I'm talking about personal moral opinion of individual circumstances.

Anyways, yes, all possible self-defense remedies are currently imperfect, and I wish there could be a perfect non-lethal and legal option someday. Until then, it's probably best to just have a few big dogs.

[Nicodimas]

I need to remind y'all gun's are again about their lethality of the said argument we are discussing...

Quote

Moral law is an invention of mankind for the disenfranchisement of the powerful in favor of the weak. Historical law subverts it at every turn. A moral view can never be proven right or wrong by any ultimate test. A man falling dead in a duel is not thought thereby to be proven in error as to his views. His very involvement in such a trial gives evidence of a new and broader view. The willingness of the principals to forgo further argument as the triviality which it in fact is and to petition directly the chambers of the historical absolute clearly indicates of how little moment are the opinions and of what great moment the divergences thereof. For the argument is indeed trivial, but not so the separate wills thereby made manifest. Man's vanity may well approach the infinite in capacity but his knowledge remains imperfect and howevermuch he comes to value his judgments ultimately he must submit them before a higher court. Here there can be no special pleading. Here are considerations of equity and rectitude and moral right rendered void and without warrant and here are the views of the litigants despised. Decisions of life and death, of what shall be and what shall not, beggar all question of right. In elections of these magnitudes are all lesser ones subsumed, moral, spiritual, natural.

--McCarthy

[Tsundoku]

Guns are fucking bad, mmmmkay? Especially unsecured ones in houses with kids. Eve MORE especially ones left LOADED and COCKED.

There are so many god-damn fucking morons in this world. Karma would be them accidentally offing themselves while drunk, but nope, it's probably going to be their kid.

http://www.news.com....a7dbab186b2564c

[Tsundoku]

http://www.news.com....ff63be2415f2f61

Maybe if prominent pro-gun people had someone they loved killed by someone who shouldn't have had a gun ...

I wouldn't wish that on (almost) anyone, but I sincerely believe it would only take a close personal tragedy for these barking fucking lunatics to change their minds even a small amount.

[Lady Bliss]

Tsundoku, on 30 June 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:

http://www.news.com....ff63be2415f2f61

Maybe if prominent pro-gun people had someone they loved killed by someone who shouldn't have had a gun ...

I wouldn't wish that on (almost) anyone, but I sincerely believe it would only take a close personal tragedy for these barking fucking lunatics to change their minds even a small amount.

After living amongst the gun crazed loons in Texas, I can assure you that it would have the opposite effect. They believe that if more people carried guns they could prevent crimes.

[worry]

Well the NRA went full fascist just a couple days ago, so I tend to agree with Lady Bliss. They are a few steps beyond hopeless, and only getting more dangerous.

https://www.pastemag...t-short-of.html

[Tsundoku]

Lady Bliss, on 30 June 2017 - 05:54 PM, said:

Tsundoku, on 30 June 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:

:doh:http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/trump-is-the-most-pro-gun-president-in-modern-times-but-nra-wants-more/news-story/bc951674d65a3c1d9ff63be2415f2f61Maybe if prominent pro-gun people had someone they loved killed by someone who shouldn't have had a gun ...I wouldn't wish that on (almost) anyone, but I sincerely believe it would only take a close personal tragedy for these barking fucking lunatics to change their minds even a small amount.

After living amongst the gun crazed loons in Texas, I can assure you that it would have the opposite effect. They believe that if more people carried guns they could prevent crimes.

Yeah, because that's worked so well previously. Where's that single panel comic of the bookcase with all the fairy stories including something like "the one where a trained armed civilian stops a massacre"?

worry, on 30 June 2017 - 07:42 PM, said:

Well the NRA went full fascist just a couple days ago, so I tend to agree with Lady Bliss. They are a few steps beyond hopeless, and only getting more dangerous.https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2017/06/check-out-the-new-nra-ad-that-stops-just-short-of.html

Holy crap! Why are so many Americans so fucking stupid? What is it about your country that does this to people? Big question I know.

EDIT: that Bobcat Goldthwait audio still has me chuckling.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 30 June 2017 - 10:04 PM

[worry]

The thing is, gun ownership isn't as widespread as you'd think in America; aside from hunting rifles and the occasional home security pistol, gun sales are generally concentrated among a small but fervent pool of collectors/hobbyists.

The NRA is two things: a lobbying group for the industry, and a mainstream veil for white nationalists. Which is why it goes hand in hand with Trump and the hard right, and sees now as a perfect time to strike hard.

Here's a timely story on this very subject. It's pretty thorough, so just skimming it will probably give you the gist.
https://www.thenatio...-wants-to-help/

[Tsundoku]

http://www.news.com....34305d11e8e1c50

[Tsundoku]

What, no reaction in this thread yet? Have we become so blase? I find it terrifying and horribly depressing that there may be a kernel of truth in that trite statement.

Tiste's post referring to an Onion article in the US politics thread sadly comes under the "ne'er a truer word spoken than in jest" banner:

https://forum.malaza...ost__p__1304708

The Republican Party and their donors are pure fucking evil. I await with interest their attempts to justify their vile positions in regard to this. But then again when a nutjob kills a classroom full of kids and they not only don't change one iota, but start with conspiracy theories, I am quite assured these fucks aren't even human - they are a conglomeration of greed-obsessed sociopaths.

I used to think that wishing such a tragedy on their families would be crossing the line in my moral code, but not any more. Those inhuman pieces of shit don't deserve the benefit of my morals.

I'd also like to throw out a cheery "fuck you" to anyone who would like to try to justify the stupidity of US gun laws in light of Sandy Hook, Orlando and this. Go on just try. I double fucking dare you. Fuck debate, some shit is just WRONG, full stop.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 03 October 2017 - 08:47 AM

[Traveller]

There is a certain degree of tragic blase.

For many in the UK it's a case of, 'There's been another shooting in the US'.. followed by the expected shout about gun laws, followed swiftly if not at the same time by their overwhelming defence, using the same 'guns are a right' argument. Then nothing happens.

Until another nut does the same thing somewhere else. If killing kids and crowds of people doesnt sway the opinion then what will?

[Tsundoku]

I don't often agree with Waleed Aly, but I'm with him 100% on this:

http://www.news.com....0812f75243a7732

[Andorion]

I agree with a lot of opinions I saw online which basically said that if the gun laws were ever going to be reformed in the US, then Sandy Hook was that time. And nothing happened. And nothing will happen this time. The NRA has the politicians tied around its little finger. Politicians care more about reelection and power than saving people. Gunowners care more about guns and conspiracies than saving lives.


Also people seem to be incapable of appreciating the need for change unless it affects them personally. See this story about the guitarist whose show got shot up. He explains how the "good guy with a gun" theory does not work.

[QuickTidal]

Andorion, on 03 October 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

I agree with a lot of opinions I saw online which basically said that if the gun laws were ever going to be reformed in the US, then Sandy Hook was that time. And nothing happened. And nothing will happen this time. The NRA has the politicians tied around its little finger. Politicians care more about reelection and power than saving people. Gunowners care more about guns and conspiracies than saving lives.


Also people seem to be incapable of appreciating the need for change unless it affects them personally. See this story about the guitarist whose show got shot up. He explains how the "good guy with a gun" theory does not work.

This.

Also, I can't believe the gun nuts are still trotting out the old "cars kill more people than guns, maybe we should ban cars" argument, and I just hang my head and shake it.

Nothing will ever convince a large majority of the US population that gun control is a viable, and useful option to reducing these types of crimes.

But yeah, if Sandy Hook didn't change anyone's minds...nothing will.

[Andorion]

QuickTidal, on 03 October 2017 - 12:18 PM, said:

Andorion, on 03 October 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

I agree with a lot of opinions I saw online which basically said that if the gun laws were ever going to be reformed in the US, then Sandy Hook was that time. And nothing happened. And nothing will happen this time. The NRA has the politicians tied around its little finger. Politicians care more about reelection and power than saving people. Gunowners care more about guns and conspiracies than saving lives.


Also people seem to be incapable of appreciating the need for change unless it affects them personally. See this story about the guitarist whose show got shot up. He explains how the "good guy with a gun" theory does not work.

This.

Also, I can't believe the gun nuts are still trotting out the old "cars kill more people than guns, maybe we should ban cars" argument, and I just hang my head and shake it.

Nothing will ever convince a large majority of the US population that gun control is a viable, and useful option to reducing these types of crimes.

But yeah, if Sandy Hook didn't change anyone's minds...nothing will.

I really find it curious how most Americans are sort of reconciled to living with broken systems.

Gerrymandering, people not being on voter rolls, out of control guns - I live in India, a country whose problems dwarf those of the US and we have enough sense to create a neutral election commission that draws up electoral districts, put people on voter rolls and gives them voter ID. Getting your voter ID is a rite of passage here almost. Yet Americans don't seem to care.

It's the same for guns. People will not accept the truth. I mean this guy had 17 rifles, most of which he bought recently. Shouldn't there be some sort of ceiling on number of weapon purchases? Also why does anybody need high powered rifles like that? Hardly for self defence! Plus the device he used to get the guns to fire fast - some sort of bump trigger is apparently legal! I mean all of these things just scream out of the page at me when I read them, but somehow this is all normal? If this is the extent of normalisation of gun ownership, I don't seem much hope.

[Gorefest]

Well, there is one big difference between the Las Vegas massacre and the Sandy Hook massacre. The main argument for pro-gun lobbyists seems to be that if the 'good guys' would also be armed, they would be able to stop the 'bad guys'. So with Sandy Hook they could claim (idiotically, but hey ho) that if the teachers had been armed, they could have shot the gunman. But that argument completely falls to pieces in this case, where it would not have made any difference if the entire festival crowd had been armed because the fire was coming from a long distance and high up in a hotel room. Whereas you'll be hard pressed to explain how anyone could have been able to amass such a huge stockpile of automatic guns and munitions with even moderately improved gun laws.

What completely baffles me is the total black-and-white stance of gun politics in the USA. Surely it must be possible (fairly easy, even) to find a workable solution on gun control that keeps alive the constitutional right to bear arms without giving people the ability to stockpile tons of automatic weapons and munitions? But there just seems no room for starting such a debate in the first place. Absolutely mind-boggling from a European point of view.

[QuickTidal]

Also RE: NRA and political contributions/in their pockets...

https://splinternews...a-an-1819059582

[QuickTidal]

Gorefest, on 03 October 2017 - 12:43 PM, said:

What completely baffles me is the total black-and-white stance of gun politics in the USA. Surely it must be possible (fairly easy, even) to find a workable solution on gun control that keeps alive the constitutional right to bear arms without giving people the ability to stockpile tons of automatic weapons and munitions? But there just seems no room for starting such a debate in the first place. Absolutely mind-boggling from a European point of view.

It baffles me more because just north of them, up here in Canada, we have those gun control laws that allows firearms, but disallow a lot of the things that would allow for something like this to happen...and our gun violence is but a fraction of the States.

We are literally a perfect example of a country that has guns, but has gun control laws that work, and prevents mass shootings.

Now, we don't really have an NRA-level organization who are in everyone's pockets...so maybe that's the problem?

[Andorion]

Gorefest, on 03 October 2017 - 12:43 PM, said:

Well, there is one big difference between the Las Vegas massacre and the Sandy Hook massacre. The main argument for pro-gun lobbyists seems to be that if the 'good guys' would also be armed, they would be able to stop the 'bad guys'. So with Sandy Hook they could claim (idiotically, but hey ho) that if the teachers had been armed, they could have shot the gunman. But that argument completely falls to pieces in this case, where it would not have made any difference if the entire festival crowd had been armed because the fire was coming from a long distance and high up in a hotel room. Whereas you'll be hard pressed to explain how anyone could have been able to amass such a huge stockpile of automatic guns and munitions with even moderately improved gun laws.

What completely baffles me is the total black-and-white stance of gun politics in the USA. Surely it must be possible (fairly easy, even) to find a workable solution on gun control that keeps alive the constitutional right to bear arms without giving people the ability to stockpile tons of automatic weapons and munitions? But there just seems no room for starting such a debate in the first place. Absolutely mind-boggling from a European point of view.

Its like the rest of American politics - healthcare, immigration, social security - name any issue, and you will find people who are convinced that they are not only right, but the last standing obstacle to total downfall and their opponents are the literal incarnation of evil.

Any question of gun reform automatically becomes "Gun ban/confiscate all guns"

IMO you can trace this to what I think of as a contrarian/distrusting/anti-intellectual tendency displayed by large sections of American society. They distrust government, any sort of informed expertise and prefer to rely on radio talk shows and facebook forwards. This gullibility makes it very easy to convince them that everyone is out to get them. And Republicans have exploited this over the years to create this paranoid ill-informed base that voted for Trump.

[Silencer]

It never ceases to amaze me that many pro gun advocates insist that gun control cannot help - not because it doesn't work on some basic level (as seen elsewhere in the world - it does) but because America is a special case. They literally argue that America has problems that run so deep in their collective psyche, that gun control will fail.

In other words, their argument is that Americans are inherently more violent and hateful than every other nation on the planet.
Sometimes I wonder if they don't have a point...

It's obviously not the main argument they make, but it does get made a lot.