[Tiste Simeon]

Azath Vitr (D, on 25 May 2022 - 05:34 PM, said:

... notice the 'hands folded in prayer' emoji....

The quote is from the Bible...

[Tiste Simeon]

Nico I've got nothing to say to you. I'm too tired, angry and upset that children are doing and people like you continue to defend the things that kill them. I hope you take a good look at yourself but you're way too far down an image right wing rabbit hole that I have no hope for you.

[Nicodimas]

Macros, on 25 May 2022 - 07:25 PM, said:

I have it!

Go lift all the AR15s and send them to Ukraine.

Cut the bullshit Nico, if that wackadoodle hadn't been able to pick up a gun from Costco he wouldn't have been able to shoot people.

This is a simple equation, bad people can't buy guns, means bad people can't use guns.

I'm not saying go lift them all off the streets, I mean, they should, I'm saying make them fucking hard to buy.
Stop obfuscating and accept the fact that there are easy solutions to dangerous people buying guns with no checks or control. We have a gun, for pest control, my dad has to have a license for it, it required a background check with references for character.

Costco doesn’t sell AR-15s, he had to go through a 4473 FBI nics background check which cannot talk to mental health stuff due to HIPAA law. Due to health law that exists we cannot get these systems to talk as it’s illegal in it current state as it would be illegal as heck to flag people. This flagging could get drawn by other systems like employment.

(Also he spent like $1800 each on those Daniel defenses and body armor which if he got Hesco isn’t cheap $1k for class 4)

These easy solutions are tough cause you run into …other laws. Does that make sense ? HIPAA is probably a good law too.

Like I would totally implement wait laws and mental background stuff , but it’s illegal to check that in the manner people keep saying. Israel says get a doctors note , that’s cool. Fine.

Here’s the thing though outside a store it’s easy as buying weed. Outside a store scary options are presented too, but your then dealing with scary humans quickly. Food for thought. But I guess that could be ATF agent which would keep everyone but really determined people at bay. Or crazy people.

Another case in point Russia someday will import arms into the US to spite us over Ukraine. That’s going to happen in our lifetimes.

(Note: I used to sell guns)

(Sidebar: assuming these are his and his grandmother didn’t gift them or something )

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 25 May 2022 - 07:51 PM

[Nicodimas]

Tiste Simeon, on 25 May 2022 - 07:34 PM, said:

Nico I've got nothing to say to you. I'm too tired, angry and upset that children are doing and people like you continue to defend the things that kill them. I hope you take a good look at yourself but you're way too far down an image right wing rabbit hole that I have no hope for you.

I’m sorry that is occurring for you. In ten years and this is still occurring, maybe you will be more willing to listen some of the logic I provide. Hey I’m just one dude I don’t have all the answers for sure. I have a really good idea that make sense to me..

Like I said at the beginning each side is too far removed to listen to the other.

Case in point there is 100s and 100s of millions..really wrap your brain around that.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 25 May 2022 - 08:00 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Nicodimas, on 25 May 2022 - 07:11 PM, said:

Macros, on 25 May 2022 - 06:52 PM, said:

Re Nicos post about the shooter.

society can create any amount of these people, just don't let them gets guns.
He talked about shooting people and he was able to buy a gun?
Dude, yo' guns laws be broken

That's what always bothers me we continue to churn these kids out , we know a lot of the causes , but can't lift a finger to get them help! It's really hard to do.. we sadly don't talk about it enough either. Like if comes out same kid from 2018. Wow

One of my founding arguments is it's impossible to control. /scale …which is why it's impossible to remove now too. Once you wrap your head around that you HAVE to seek out better solutions. Of course once safely occurs at a macro level people would voluntarily do.. but I guess that's a /utopian thought

America will send billions (50.. soon to be 100 billion) to Ukraine in weapons as aid to protect itself, but won't for schools in a country with 400 million + guns. Probably 500 as that's based off NICs hypothetical calculations. Limit the entrances and have guard. It's ludicrous.

It did scale in Australia, despite an entrenched gun culture... but primarily through a gun buyback program, which seems unlikely to work anywhere near as well in the US (no matter how desperate people get for cash...). (And Australia has only about 8% the population of the US.)

Better background checks (asking the shooter's school, for example, which I'd assume wasn't done?), even extended to close current loopholes (like gun shows, etc.), still may have only made it more difficult for the shooter to acquire assault rifles, not stopped him. But he could have been flagged and monitored by law enforcement---in the near future, perhaps using automated surveillance and AI to help it scale up.

Would Republicans be willing to provide funding for public schools to have guards with guns powerful enough to stop someone in body armor? (For example, in the Buffalo shooting a security guard's bullet was stopped by the shooter's plate armor, and he shot the security guard and kept on shooting. But banning body armor while allowing guns to be ubiquitous would be absurd. In a bad way.) Bulletproof doors or shields?

Wonder if Republicans are trying to promote private schools offering armed guards (and teachers too).

(The company I bought my bulletproof hoodie from (won't stop a rifle though) has been donating them to schoolteachers. Wearing plate armor is potentially good exercise, though teachers with back or knee problems may have trouble with the extra weight.)

Could schools adopt nonlethal weapons that will effectively stop---or at least partially incapacitate, or reduce the lethality of---potential shooters? But the temptation to abuse nonlethal weapons might be even higher than lethal weapons... though the misuse of lethal weapons by school guards (or teachers, or students who manage to get ahold of them) would of course be worse. In the future, automation could be an answer....

Another technologically plausible (hopefully not too distant) future option would be to conduct school remotely through VR/AR (which would also allow for social development by tracking facial expressions, etc.). The ability to track eye movements and other biometrics could be extremely useful for optimizing educational outcomes. (While so-called 'virtual schooling' has been detrimental for many elementary school students, schooling in virtual reality could plausibly have the opposite effect, even or especially for those students less motivated to learn academic subjects to begin with.)

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 25 May 2022 - 09:33 PM

[Nicodimas]

@Azath:Australia removed 650k guns over the course of 2 years.

American sells 1.5 million guns a month (4.1 million is the record) ( 40 million in a year is the record)

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 25 May 2022 - 08:38 PM

[Gorefest]

Hey Nico, instead of all this mental health excuse bullshit, why not very simply make a point of not selling assault rifles to 18-year old kids? Or better yet: to anyone? There is absolutely no god damn frigging reason for anyone to own an assault rifle unless they are in the army. "Uh but dey luk soo kewl, peew peew peew." It is fucked in the head, period. There is no excuse.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 25 May 2022 - 09:28 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Gorefest, on 25 May 2022 - 09:27 PM, said:

Hey Nico, instead of all this mental health excuse bullshit, why not very simply make a point of not selling assault rifles to 18-year old kids? Or better yet: to anyone? There is absolutely no god damn frigging reason for anyone to own an assault rifle unless they are in the army. "Uh but dey luk soo kewl, peew peew peew." It is fucked in the head, period. There is no excuse.

'The last federal assault weapons ban expired in 2004, but a [...] study from Northwestern Medicine says that the ten-year ban likely prevented as many as 11 mass shootings, and had it remained in place, as many as 30 more mass shootings could have been prevented.'

Northwestern Study Says 1994-2004 Federal Assault Weapons Ban Worked


OTOH:

'U.S. Has At Least 20 Million Assault Rifles. A Ban Wouldn't Reduce That Number.

[... but] that number includes weapons owned by police departments as well as civilians.

[...] AR-15-style rifles are some of the most popular guns in the United States[...]

[...] Biden has suggested reducing the number of assault weapons in circulation by buying them back from their owners[...]

[...] guns like the AR-15 have become extremely popular among enthusiasts who favor their versatility and limited recoil. [Maybe allow them at shooting ranges as a compromise?]

[...] seven states have banned assault weapons on their own.'

U.S. Has At Least 20 Million Assault Rifles. A Ban Wouldn't Reduce That Number


Standard Republican argument is criminals would still be able to get them relatively easily, so it would just be disadvantaging 'law-abiding citizens' who could theoretically use assault weapons to fend off the criminals wielding them. But is there really any substantial and rigorous empirical evidence to support those claims? Here's a Georgetown University study based on self-reporting, though I'm skeptical about its rigor and objectivity:

'approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) [claim to] have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property[...] Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property.

[...] 30.2% of gun owners -- totaling about 24.6 million individuals -- have owned an AR-15 or similarly styled rifle.

[...] In most cases (81.9%) the gun is not fired[...]

Handguns are the firearm most commonly used in defensive incidents (65.9%) [...] rifles (13.1%).'

2021 National Firearms Survey by William English :: SSRN

Not clear how much of that 13.1% is assault rifles. Or what percentage of those incidents can be verified by police reports.

Personally, I have an extremely realistic looking fake gun (actually a lighter) that I might consider brandishing for self-defense.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 25 May 2022 - 10:17 PM

[amphibian]

The Uvalde shooter did not have body armor. Furthermore, police with guns did "engage" with him prior to his entering the school. They ran away after being wounded - to let this shooter enter an elementary school.

25 minutes later, Border Patrol officers entered and the shooter died by gunshots delivered by them. The teachers and the children died. Just as the Buffalo grocery store shoppers died by gunshots.

Good people with guns being around did not "solve" the problem of people (children) being hurt or dying to people with guns.

It is a total fucked in the head thing to turn the money spigot on to supply more guns to this country and especially when it won't help solve the problem - people are hurt and dying by gunshots and they shouldn't be.

Nicodimas, if you want to spend the rest of your life preparing badly to hurt people who try to hurt you with their legal guns, go ahead. But don't put bullshit facts here about what the appropriate solution for the country is because your way isn't working. It hasn't worked and it will never work. This is the only country where this happens all the time. It's the only country where gun ownership and ease of obtaining it is structured like this.

How many dead kids is your stake in this system worth?

This post has been edited by amphibian: 25 May 2022 - 10:39 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

amphibian, on 25 May 2022 - 10:38 PM, said:

The Uvalde shooter did not have body armor.

Specifically, 'wearing a "tactical vest carrier with no ballistic panels"'---from a distance it may have looked like he had body armor. Actual body armor might have been too expensive for him (after buying the assault rifles...).

(40) Shooter barricaded himself in classroom, killing 19 children and 2 teachers, official says (cnn.com)

Wonder if it would have been any different if the police who first responded had used drones with mounted guns (or 'less lethal'/nonlethal weapons) instead. Though I don't think giving local police forces more military-grade gear is generally a good idea....

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 25 May 2022 - 10:56 PM

[amphibian]

Armed police in schools isn't an effective solution in the long run. They're more dangerous and riskier than a school shooter coming along.

Giving the police more tools to not do much of anything about a school shooter isn't a solution.

And the police who "engaged" with the shooter made a decision to not risk themselves further to stop the children and teachers from being hurt or dying. That's a level of cowardice that isn't going to be fixed by more guns or money.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 25 May 2022 - 11:04 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

amphibian, on 25 May 2022 - 11:04 PM, said:

And the police who "engaged" with the shooter made a decision to not risk themselves further to stop the children and teachers from being hurt or dying. That's a level of cowardice that isn't going to be fixed by more guns or money.

... but it might be fixed by (armed) drones.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

For example:



US firm reveals gun-toting drone that can fire in mid-air - BBC News

'Might there be another way to have so-called "gun control" and still have the freedom to have 300 million or more guns? The answers lie in radical technology. [...] Had an armed police drone—or at least a security drone with a smoke bomb or flares—been able to get to the shooter's broken hotel windows from the music venue, dozens of lives might've have been saved. [...] Drones can fly 120 miles per hour and could have likely reached the shooter's room in less than 30 seconds.

[...] Using GPS and custom AI algorithms that detect gunfire bursts and explosion sounds from weapons, a waiting police drone could have found and confronted the shooter in probably less than a minute. It could have exploded a nonlethal smoke bomb in the room of the shooter or directly attacked the shooter himself with weapons.

Drones can also be led to exact locations to stop shooters by specialized smoke alarms that sense gun smoke, sending out GPS coordinates to where the shooting is coming from, or they could be notified through smart building technology built into windows and doors that notify authorities when they've been tampered with or broken.

Much of this technology is essentially here, and the U.S. military is on the cutting edge with its armada of drones and drone tech.'

Can High-Tech Drones Help Stop Mass Shootings?

... and those articles are from more than four years ago.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 25 May 2022 - 11:35 PM

[amphibian]

Why are you advocating shooting an 18 year old kid to death by robot as a solution? That's not a solution either.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

amphibian, on 25 May 2022 - 11:42 PM, said:

Why are you advocating shooting an 18 year old kid to death by robot as a solution? That's not a solution either.

Nonlethal weapons would be better, especially if they can be similarly effective.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 26 May 2022 - 12:07 AM

[Nicodimas]

amphibian, on 25 May 2022 - 10:38 PM, said:

The Uvalde shooter did not have body armor. Furthermore, police with guns did "engage" with him prior to his entering the school. They ran away after being wounded - to let this shooter enter an elementary school.

25 minutes later, Border Patrol officers entered and the shooter died by gunshots delivered by them. The teachers and the children died. Just as the Buffalo grocery store shoppers died by gunshots.

Good people with guns being around did not "solve" the problem of people (children) being hurt or dying to people with guns.

It is a total fucked in the head thing to turn the money spigot on to supply more guns to this country and especially when it won't help solve the problem - people are hurt and dying by gunshots and they shouldn't be.

Nicodimas, if you want to spend the rest of your life preparing badly to hurt people who try to hurt you with their legal guns, go ahead. But don't put bullshit facts here about what the appropriate solution for the country is because your way isn't working. It hasn't worked and it will never work. This is the only country where this happens all the time. It's the only country where gun ownership and ease of obtaining it is structured like this.

How many dead kids is your stake in this system worth?

What is my way..? How is realistically going to place controls on 100s of millions of devices.


Look here is thing amph and you know it's true.. true gun law won't be enacted in a meaningful cause the election cycle. You think a bunch of politicians are really going to risk their careers? No way they are spineless. Fairly simple to see.


Wait how exactly is armed police/military more dangerous etc .. you state this like its .. true. While we are largely protected as a society with..weapons. America really forgets just how savage man is..


Why cant we addresses the human being element. We continue to churn them out. Start there and make people safer.

They don't even need **more** guns their is plenty is existence to arm 117,000 well armed resource officers. Seems like a good first step. There is at least 400 million already! But just like that guy said in Buffalo I choose it because it was a soft target.

On body armor I read he had plate

https://qz.com/21701...gs-more-deadly/

https://www.kens5.co...06-64863b1d211b


@Amph there so many things that could be done , but the divide is a chasm for sure.

I still can't believe that people send their kids into atmosphere as the protection is a sign.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Nicodimas, on 26 May 2022 - 12:29 AM, said:

amphibian, on 25 May 2022 - 10:38 PM, said:

The Uvalde shooter did not have body armor. Furthermore, police with guns did "engage" with him prior to his entering the school. They ran away after being wounded - to let this shooter enter an elementary school.

25 minutes later, Border Patrol officers entered and the shooter died by gunshots delivered by them. The teachers and the children died. Just as the Buffalo grocery store shoppers died by gunshots.

Good people with guns being around did not "solve" the problem of people (children) being hurt or dying to people with guns.

It is a total fucked in the head thing to turn the money spigot on to supply more guns to this country and especially when it won't help solve the problem - people are hurt and dying by gunshots and they shouldn't be.

Nicodimas, if you want to spend the rest of your life preparing badly to hurt people who try to hurt you with their legal guns, go ahead. But don't put bullshit facts here about what the appropriate solution for the country is because your way isn't working. It hasn't worked and it will never work. This is the only country where this happens all the time. It's the only country where gun ownership and ease of obtaining it is structured like this.

How many dead kids is your stake in this system worth?

What is my way..? How is realistically going to place controls on 100s of millions of devices.


Look here is thing amph and you know it's true.. true gun law won't be enacted in a meaningful cause the election cycle. You think a bunch of politicians are really going to risk their careers? No way they are spineless. Fairly simple to see.


Wait how exactly is armed police/military more dangerous etc .. you state this like its .. true. While we are largely protected as a society with..weapons. America really forgets just how savage man is..


Why cant we addresses the human being element. We continue to churn them out. Start there and make people safer.

They don't even need **more** guns their is plenty is existence to arm 117,000 well armed resource officers. Seems like a good first step. There is at least 400 million already! But just like that guy said in Buffalo I choose it because it was a soft target.

On body armor I read he had plate

https://qz.com/21701...gs-more-deadly/

https://www.kens5.co...06-64863b1d211b


@Amph there so many things that could be done , but the divide is a chasm for sure.

I still can't believe that people send their kids into atmosphere as the protection is a sign.

QZ article says he was wearing a 'wearing a “tactical vest carrier”', citing CNN as their source; but the CNN article they cite (in its current form) goes on to specify 'The man was wearing a "tactical vest carrier with no ballistic panels"'. It was missing the plates / ballistic panels (which the tactical vest is designed to hold), so it would not have been effective as body armor.

https://www.cnn.com/...sday/index.html

[Nicodimas]

 283981380_691021108854576_8349352004152443891_n.jpg (63.86K)
Number of downloads: 0Anyhow think I said my point enough for sure..I'm sure we will discussing the same thing in ten years well if the economy hasn't popped /longcollapseishere?

This whole situation of course is super sad. /prayers out

I'm gonna do a culture reread as it feels like right time.been ages...

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 26 May 2022 - 04:11 AM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'a school guard—a good guy with a gun—[...] confronted and failed to prevent the shooter's entry. [...]

[...] study in the Journal of the American Medical Association examining 133 school shootings from 1980 to 2019. An armed guard was present in about a quarter of the incidents in the study. Those schools actually suffered death rates nearly three times higher than schools without armed guards. Similarly, a 2020 review of gun policy research by the RAND Corporation think tank found no evidence that the presence of more guns had any effect on gun violence. Criminologists at Texas State University found that unarmed staff or the shooters themselves are far more likely to bring a school shooting to an end than someone with a gun returning fire.

So-called good guys with guns fail to effectively deter or end mass shootings for a variety of tactical and psychological reasons.

[...] RAND analysts have found that even highly trained NYPD officers only hit their intended target in 19 percent of gunfire exchanges. Winning a gunfight with a shooter only becomes more difficult when the perpetrator carries a semi-automatic rifle like an AR-15[...] These weapons have a much longer range and are far more accurate than the kinds of pistols typically used by police and civilian concealed carriers[...]

In the most extreme cases, a single gunman with a semi-automatic rifle can stymie an entire SWAT team for hours[...]

[...] "many school shooters are actively suicidal, intending to die in the act, so an armed officer may be an incentive rather than a deterrent."

[...] Considering the long odds of taking down a determined shooter equipped with an assault rifle, armed police and bystanders sometimes have difficulty motivating themselves to actually engage at all, as happened so infamously in the Parkland shooting when two sheriff's deputies apparently hid from the gunman.'

The GOP's only answer to school shootings didn't help in Uvalde

... so school guards would have to be armed with weapons that have comparable range and efficacy (at least in incapacitating)? Or, better, drones (again, ideally nonlethal... but lethal drones would be better than mass shootings).

[amphibian]

The deal being offered by Nicodimas and the GOP is to give police money and guns to staff every vulnerable point in society with people with guns who will sacrifice themselves to protect the rest of us.

That deal was already in place at Uvalde. An armed school resource officer engaged the shooter and then fled. No shots were fired. The shooter shot at two police outside the building, who were wounded in the gunfire exchange and fled. The police were on scene and were urged by bystanders for 40 minutes to enter the building. They did not do so.

https://apnews.com/a...e482483df6e4683

I am not gonna sign up to more of this deal when it's not upheld. I'm not hiring Pinkertons or the shittiest police to wear weapons and be pseudo police. I'm calling for extended waiting periods for gun purchases, restrictions on ammunition sales, and the eventual removal of guns from American society.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 26 May 2022 - 02:53 AM