[Tattersail_]

Maark Abbott, on 07 June 2016 - 11:05 AM, said:

Tattersail_, on 07 June 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 07 June 2016 - 06:50 AM, said:

Ehhh. I don't know if EP5 set the bar too high but this episode left me feeling cold again. I get that we've had some setup and obviously they're building up to Burned Face Man vs Zombie Nation, but for the most part it just felt like a filler episode. And I get that the book we're in/moving on from (ADWD) was like 70% filler, but... Ehhh.

I said to my GOT whatsapp group something similar. This was another filler episode, the good thing about that though is the pay off will be so good, I'm of the mind that the next episode will fucking rock, or we'll get 2 more filler, set up episodes and then the awesome one near the end.

As a fan of Malazan you must like this sort of build up and pay off. Most books in the Malazan universe have 70% set up and then that epic ending, except Dust of Dreams which is mostly set up.

People said that about TWOK as well. They better not be TWOKing it or I'll be greatly displeasured.

say next week is the same, would you stop watching it?

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Terez, on 07 June 2016 - 06:19 AM, said:

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 07 June 2016 - 06:02 AM, said:

I can only assume pointing The Hound at the Brotherhood is a way to run into Brienne and Jaime (and hopefully introduce Stoneheart). If the show does introduce her I just hope it does something with her quickly - she felt so far like a largely pointless side plot in the books (bear in mind I haven't read them for some time, I could be forgetting something major, but I don't recall she's done much yet other than turn the Brotherhood several shades darker and start hanging Freys and Lannisters, and by all accounts not hanging Brienne.)

We've barely seen her in the books. Aside from rumors, only in two scenes: the AFFC prologue in some Frey's POV, and Brienne's last chapter. So if you want to brush up on Stoneheart, that's easy enough.

IMO she was no more pointless than the Brotherhood was in the first place. She's on a revenge mission, and she's much more concerned about Freys than Lannisters. Perhaps just because there are so many goddamn Freys. I think in the books GRRM is going for the irony of Frey extinction. No one in Westeros has more heirs than Walder Frey.

Fair point about the Brotherhood in general. It could be my expectations are off-kilter but I expected Catelyn being back in play (albeit very differently) would do something important for the narrative, but all it's done is what we've just discussed. Hence my feeling it seems a bit limp and pointless as a storyline - future books may go on to prove me wrong. However, I won't be reading them. My copies of the books up to press are now on our shared reading shelf at work for people to borrow as they see fit, because they were taking up space for no good reason. My attempted re-read lasted up to the Arya chapter before the Red Wedding and I couldn't take any more - as such, you'll have to forgive my ailing memory of book points I'm afraid.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 07 June 2016 - 11:55 AM

[Terez]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 07 June 2016 - 11:54 AM, said:

Terez, on 07 June 2016 - 06:19 AM, said:

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 07 June 2016 - 06:02 AM, said:

I can only assume pointing The Hound at the Brotherhood is a way to run into Brienne and Jaime (and hopefully introduce Stoneheart). If the show does introduce her I just hope it does something with her quickly - she felt so far like a largely pointless side plot in the books (bear in mind I haven't read them for some time, I could be forgetting something major, but I don't recall she's done much yet other than turn the Brotherhood several shades darker and start hanging Freys and Lannisters, and by all accounts not hanging Brienne.)

We've barely seen her in the books. Aside from rumors, only in two scenes: the AFFC prologue in some Frey's POV, and Brienne's last chapter. So if you want to brush up on Stoneheart, that's easy enough.

IMO she was no more pointless than the Brotherhood was in the first place. She's on a revenge mission, and she's much more concerned about Freys than Lannisters. Perhaps just because there are so many goddamn Freys. I think in the books GRRM is going for the irony of Frey extinction. No one in Westeros has more heirs than Walder Frey.

Fair point about the Brotherhood in general. It could be my expectations are off-kilter but I expected Catelyn being back in play (albeit very differently) would do something important for the narrative, but all it's done is what we've just discussed. Hence my feeling it seems a bit limp and pointless as a storyline - future books may go on to prove me wrong. However, I won't be reading them. My copies of the books up to press are now on our shared reading shelf at work for people to borrow as they see fit, because they were taking up space for no good reason. My attempted re-read lasted up to the Arya chapter before the Red Wedding and I couldn't take any more - as such, you'll have to forgive my ailing memory of book points I'm afraid.

I wasn't trying to imply that you should feel obligated to brush up, just that it isn't much to read should you feel so compelled. It's been more than 10 years since AFFC came out, and with the way AFFC and ADWD were split, the fact that she wasn't in ADWD at all is not as significant as it would usually be in a series like this. (Character byes are also not very significant in Malazan, for different reasons. It's a big deal in WoT though, even with people who love all 3 series, like Cause.) My last attempt at a reread ended similarly to yours, so the fact that she only had 2 chapters is the kind of thing I might forget.

I dunno...I suppose my expectations for Catelyn in a reprise role are different from yours. She's a big step up from Cersei but it's hard to see her as one of the good guys with the way she treated Jon; the zombie-ish Lady Stoneheart seems appropriate for her. And I wouldn't say her actions are unimportant to the narrative. The revenge mission, in its way, just adds flavor to the chaos that's building in Westeros, and nuance to the magic of Jon's resurrection. I don't expect anything more from her, and the "be careful what you ask for" resurrection story is an old one which I happen to like. If you're going to introduce the power of resurrection, best to balance it with drawbacks and limitations. Beric lost a piece of himself every time he died. Catelyn only died the once but she lost more, partly because she was dead longer, partly because of the way she died. It works for me.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Terez, on 07 June 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 07 June 2016 - 11:54 AM, said:

Terez, on 07 June 2016 - 06:19 AM, said:

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 07 June 2016 - 06:02 AM, said:

I can only assume pointing The Hound at the Brotherhood is a way to run into Brienne and Jaime (and hopefully introduce Stoneheart). If the show does introduce her I just hope it does something with her quickly - she felt so far like a largely pointless side plot in the books (bear in mind I haven't read them for some time, I could be forgetting something major, but I don't recall she's done much yet other than turn the Brotherhood several shades darker and start hanging Freys and Lannisters, and by all accounts not hanging Brienne.)

We've barely seen her in the books. Aside from rumors, only in two scenes: the AFFC prologue in some Frey's POV, and Brienne's last chapter. So if you want to brush up on Stoneheart, that's easy enough.

IMO she was no more pointless than the Brotherhood was in the first place. She's on a revenge mission, and she's much more concerned about Freys than Lannisters. Perhaps just because there are so many goddamn Freys. I think in the books GRRM is going for the irony of Frey extinction. No one in Westeros has more heirs than Walder Frey.

Fair point about the Brotherhood in general. It could be my expectations are off-kilter but I expected Catelyn being back in play (albeit very differently) would do something important for the narrative, but all it's done is what we've just discussed. Hence my feeling it seems a bit limp and pointless as a storyline - future books may go on to prove me wrong. However, I won't be reading them. My copies of the books up to press are now on our shared reading shelf at work for people to borrow as they see fit, because they were taking up space for no good reason. My attempted re-read lasted up to the Arya chapter before the Red Wedding and I couldn't take any more - as such, you'll have to forgive my ailing memory of book points I'm afraid.

I wasn't trying to imply that you should feel obligated to brush up, just that it isn't much to read should you feel so compelled. It's been more than 10 years since AFFC came out, and with the way AFFC and ADWD were split, the fact that she wasn't in ADWD at all is not as significant as it would usually be in a series like this. (Character byes are also not very significant in Malazan, for different reasons. It's a big deal in WoT though, even with people who love all 3 series, like Cause.) My last attempt at a reread ended similarly to yours, so the fact that she only had 2 chapters is the kind of thing I might forget.

I dunno...I suppose my expectations for Catelyn in a reprise role are different from yours. She's a big step up from Cersei but it's hard to see her as one of the good guys with the way she treated Jon; the zombie-ish Lady Stoneheart seems appropriate for her. And I wouldn't say her actions are unimportant to the narrative. The revenge mission, in its way, just adds flavor to the chaos that's building in Westeros, and nuance to the magic of Jon's resurrection. I don't expect anything more from her, and the "be careful what you ask for" resurrection story is an old one which I happen to like. If you're going to introduce the power of resurrection, best to balance it with drawbacks and limitations. Beric lost a piece of himself every time he died. Catelyn only died the once but she lost more, partly because she was dead longer, partly because of the way she died. It works for me.

Oh I know, don't worry, more just explaining I might ask seemingly dumb questions from time to time!

I hadn't thought of it that way - the price of resurrection point. Viewed from that angle I agree, it does work really nicely. I also hadn't thought about the differing results of she and Jon's resurrections by essentially the same power. Food for thought - thanks Terez!

[Maark Abbott]

Tattersail_, on 07 June 2016 - 11:42 AM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 07 June 2016 - 11:05 AM, said:

Tattersail_, on 07 June 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 07 June 2016 - 06:50 AM, said:

Ehhh. I don't know if EP5 set the bar too high but this episode left me feeling cold again. I get that we've had some setup and obviously they're building up to Burned Face Man vs Zombie Nation, but for the most part it just felt like a filler episode. And I get that the book we're in/moving on from (ADWD) was like 70% filler, but... Ehhh.

I said to my GOT whatsapp group something similar. This was another filler episode, the good thing about that though is the pay off will be so good, I'm of the mind that the next episode will fucking rock, or we'll get 2 more filler, set up episodes and then the awesome one near the end.

As a fan of Malazan you must like this sort of build up and pay off. Most books in the Malazan universe have 70% set up and then that epic ending, except Dust of Dreams which is mostly set up.

People said that about TWOK as well. They better not be TWOKing it or I'll be greatly displeasured.

say next week is the same, would you stop watching it?

Probably not, because as with everyone, I'm holding out for that walk of atonement.

[Gorefest]

Maark Abbott, on 07 June 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Probably not, because as with everyone, I'm holding out for that walk of atonement.

Give it up, Maark, you're not going to see Natalie Dormer nude anymore. That plot twist has sailed.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 07 June 2016 - 02:02 PM

[Werthead]

I kept wondering if Ian McShane was building a giant wicker dog and they were going to burn Sandor in it at the end. That would have been awesome.

[Werthead]

We didn't get McShane doing it, but DEADWOOD creator David Milch agreed to read out the Broken Men speech from AFFC instead.

[worry]

So good.

[Tiste Simeon]

I have now watched the episode. I still really like Arya, to be honest. I know people have been calling it a massive training montage but I think Maisie Williams is just compelling. My theory currently lies with the actress lady helping somehow but reading through the thread has made me reconsider a few things.

I see what you all mean about Ian Mcshane - he was great but I really thought they were going to give him some awesome fighting before killing him off. Mild disappointment at that...

Favourite scene actually was the scene with Lady Mormont in her castle. Dunno why but I loved it!

[worry]

Maybe it's cuz dank dark castles are such a lovely reminder of England.

[JPK]

Tiste Simeon, on 07 June 2016 - 09:37 PM, said:

Favourite scene actually was the scene with Lady Mormont in her castle. Dunno why but I loved it!

Because she was exactly what Lady Mormont should be. Fierce and loyal.

This post has been edited by JPK: 07 June 2016 - 11:10 PM

[Abyss]

Battalion, on 07 June 2016 - 06:03 AM, said:

amphibian, on 06 June 2016 - 09:29 PM, said:

I have long wondered if the characters within the show/books give that much of a crap about their Valryian swords like the readers/writer do. They seem to not be prized much beyond sentimental value - nobody honestly tries to steal them or preserve them. They just give them to the highest ranked decent warrior in the family and go.

So someone like little lady Mormont may not care about one sword when she's counting exactly how many swords at arms she can give.

Weren't the Lannisters pretty excited when they took Ned's sword? I'm sure they stole it and melted it down to make new ones for Jaime and Tyrion, didn't they? Must be of some importance

Jaime yes. He gave it to Brienne. Joffrey got the other one and it went to Tommen.

[amphibian]

So the only ones who genuinely care about Valryian swords are the tip top nobles. The rest of these people are practically saying "ehhhh..."

[Terez]

Here's a bit I'd forgotten from the show. When Arya yelled at Melisandre for taking Gendry away, Melisandre looked in her eyes and said she saw a darkness in her, and eyes starting back at her - brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes - eyes she'd shut forever. And then she promised, "We will meet again."

Since the futures of Melisandre and Arya are particularly interesting and mysterious at this point, I figured I'd bring that up.

Another thing: the show seems to be playing up the R'hllor-Faceless Men connection a bit more than GRRM did in the books. Melisandre and Thoros greet each other with valar morghulis / valar dohaeris.

[Tsundoku]

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed Valar and Morghul(is) are from LotR?

Apologies if this has been brought up and analysed to death already.

We now return you to your previous programme.

[Tapper]

Werthead, on 07 June 2016 - 07:42 PM, said:

I kept wondering if Ian McShane was building a giant wicker dog and they were going to burn Sandor in it at the end. That would have been awesome.

It was either a wind mill or a church, imho. The first makes sense as a communal project, given it is pretty much essential for any farming community to succeed, especially if it strives for independence from other communities/lords - the second would fit with McShane being a priest.

[Maark Abbott]

Gorefest, on 07 June 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 07 June 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Probably not, because as with everyone, I'm holding out for that walk of atonement.

Give it up, Maark, you're not going to see Natalie Dormer nude anymore. That plot twist has sailed.

My missus watched The Tudors. I've already seen that.

[Primateus]

Tapper, on 08 June 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

Werthead, on 07 June 2016 - 07:42 PM, said:

I kept wondering if Ian McShane was building a giant wicker dog and they were going to burn Sandor in it at the end. That would have been awesome.

It was either a wind mill or a church, imho. The first makes sense as a communal project, given it is pretty much essential for any farming community to succeed, especially if it strives for independence from other communities/lords - the second would fit with McShane being a priest.

I would guess a mill, because he didn't strike me as the kind of priest who gave one, in his words I believe, fuck about churches.

[Terez]

Tapper, on 08 June 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

Werthead, on 07 June 2016 - 07:42 PM, said:

I kept wondering if Ian McShane was building a giant wicker dog and they were going to burn Sandor in it at the end. That would have been awesome.

It was either a wind mill or a church, imho.

Dutchie detected...

Maark Abbott, on 08 June 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:

Gorefest, on 07 June 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 07 June 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Probably not, because as with everyone, I'm holding out for that walk of atonement.

Give it up, Maark, you're not going to see Natalie Dormer nude anymore. That plot twist has sailed.

My missus watched The Tudors. I've already seen that.

She got naked for Renly in season 2.