[worry]

Mods can someone please move the LOST posts into a literal hellscape.

Re: Tyrion foreshadowing, there are also his physical markers (at least in the books): wonky eyes, hair that is much paler blonde than his siblings' "golden" hair.

[Terez]

My mom makes a real effort to get into my geek obsessions. She has actually read ASOIAF and WoT, and she logs into Twitter just to like my tweets. But she's hopeless. Today she was trying to tell me about some Hodor theory she read on the internet, and I was like, MOM, I thought you read the books; his name is Walder; he's not a secret warg who lost his wits in a warg accident.

She has no theory discretion whatsoever. She was all about that Meera=Secret Targaryen theory last year which was apparently mostly based on the fact that the actors who play them have similar appearances in the show. Like, oh, they look alike and have the same hairdo, HEY HOWLAND REED WAS AT THE TOWER OF JOY

[worry]

Everyone in Westeros is related due to millennia of incest, just like modern day Europe.

[Tatterdemalion]

I want an R+L=J theory, only it's R+L=T for 'Theon.'
Now THAT will piss on everybody!

[worry]

I think on the show it's B (Balon) + DG (Drowned God) = T (Theon as depicted by anthropomorphic catfish Alfie Allen). It's one of the earliest divergences from the books.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Terez, on 04 May 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

I mean, they cut him from the show entirely. That says a lot. I never read up very thoroughly on the fake-Aegon theories but I always figured he'd be irrelevant, maybe by dying before the time came for him to be important, though there was a certain appeal to Aegon winning out over Dany (the three strongest non-Targaryen Houses in Westeros mixed with Targaryen blood). It's just bad storytelling to build up certain people and have them overshadowed by someone literally out of nowhere in the last half of the series.

That was most of my dislike for Aegon in fairness - he appears far too late and, having been on the R+L=J train since first read like many other people, I was a little bit "Oh, right, another one. Yay?"

Terez, on 04 May 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

I wouldn't mind if it was all of them. I like aspects of both theories so it makes no difference to me. I like impotent Tywin and I like Tyrion being the special one. The only scenario I don't like is where Tyrion is the only legit Lannister of the three.

Hadn't actually considered all three - impotent Tywin does appeal.

[Tattersail_]

R+L=J?

[Terez]

Rhaegar+Lyanna=Jon

Such a popular theory, we just assume you know what R+L=J means.

[Tattersail_]

Terez, on 05 May 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

Rhaegar+Lyanna=Jon

Such a popular theory, we just assume you know what R+L=J means.

I have avoided all discussion on this until now. Reason being I am up to date with the series, I avoid things if I'm behind in case of spoilers. So first time I'm joining in.

[Cause]

I'm sure that every non targarean who became a dragon rider, nettles etc was thought to be a bastard son or some such of a valyrion ancestor.

Again we don't know the deal. We are told the valyrion controlled the dragons with magic. Why they have a special affinity with valyrion blood is not clear but it's clearly Shown to be important.

The flashback scene I most want to see is the history of the faceless men and the doom of valkyria. I keep thinking the faceless men and their history will be key. They are seemingly the oldest most knowledgeable cult/sect/religion in the world. They may well possess tons of secret knowledge on magic, dragons and even the white walkers.

[Terez]

Tattersail_, on 05 May 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

Terez, on 05 May 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

Rhaegar+Lyanna=Jon

Such a popular theory, we just assume you know what R+L=J means.

I have avoided all discussion on this until now. Reason being I am up to date with the series, I avoid things if I'm behind in case of spoilers. So first time I'm joining in.

Ahhh, then forgive me for assuming that the foreshadowing for Jon being a dragonrider would be obvious to you. I'm guessing you haven't read the books? That's unusual on book forums. If you like, I can go into more detail on R+L=J.

[Tattersail_]

Terez, on 05 May 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

Tattersail_, on 05 May 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

Terez, on 05 May 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

Rhaegar+Lyanna=Jon

Such a popular theory, we just assume you know what R+L=J means.

I have avoided all discussion on this until now. Reason being I am up to date with the series, I avoid things if I'm behind in case of spoilers. So first time I'm joining in.

Ahhh, then forgive me for assuming that the foreshadowing for Jon being a dragonrider would be obvious to you. I'm guessing you haven't read the books? That's unusual on book forums. If you like, I can go into more detail on R+L=J.

I read the books way before Malazan, over 10 years ago I think, so I don't remember much.

[Terez]

Gotcha. There's probably at least 5x as much evidence for Jon being a Targaryen than Tyrion.

The whole impetus for Robert's Rebellion was Robert's belief that Rhaegar, son of Aerys (the Mad King), had abducted Lyanna Stark who was promised to him in marriage. More likely, she went with Rhaegar of her own free will because Robert was never faithful to her (despite his obsession with her, which he called love). Rhaegar crowned Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty at the Tourney at Harrenhal not long before the war began, passing over his own wife.

Elia Martell had issues with childbirth and was unable to bear Rhaegar any more children. He believed, based on certain prophecies, that he needed to have three children. Since the Dornish are easygoing in matters of sex, it's entirely possible, even likely, that Elia approved of his courtship of Lyanna. His tourney favor was a garland of blue winter roses.

Ned's memories tell us that Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy in Dorne, where she was being guarded by the Kingsguard during the fighting, in a bed of blood with the scent of roses. We saw a bit from that scene in the preview for next week's episode, as Ned prepares to fight Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning, most legendary member of the Kingsguard.

Ned never thinks right out that Lyanna died in childbirth, but it's pretty obvious. And before she died, she made Ned promise her...something. We presume that she made him promise to take care of Jon and protect his identity so that Robert's wrath would not extend to her child. So Ned took Jon back to Winterfell and claimed he was a bastard son, keeping the truth secret even from his wife, and even at the expense of his own otherwise legendary reputation for honorable behavior.

There are all sorts of other details, probably the most important of which is the Azor Ahai prophecy. Melisandre believed that Stannis was Azor Ahai, the champion of R'hllor who is supposed to lead the fight against the Others (the White Walkers). Maester Aemon believed it was Dany, in the books at least, before he died. More likely, it's Jon.

[Tattersail_]

Okay, what is the significance of 3 dragon riders?

Say we have Jon, Daenerys and X, what are we thinking? That they will marry/fight each other?

The biggest threat is the white walkers, but that seems only to affect the North, would it be good if they invaded the North and attacked the South? Is that likely?

What are people thinking about the end?

[Terez]

If the North isn't strong enough to hold back the invasion of the White Walkers, they'll overtake everything. They come with the cold, and soon, it will be winter everywhere. In Dany's vision at the House of the Undying in the show, she saw the throne room at the Red Keep, with signs of destruction and snow falling inside the room. Then her vision took her to the Wall.

The general presumption is that the importance of the dragonriders is to lead the Seven Kingdoms in the fight against the White Walkers.

There are a lot of Jon/Dany shippers out there. I like the idea, but since Dany can't have any more children, if they do fall in love, one or both of them will probably die. My personal theory is that both will die and Tyrion will end up on the Iron Throne with Sansa as his queen.

A lot of people seem to think that the Wall will come down, whether it's by the Horn of Joramun or the failure of the magic or whatever.

[Gorefest]

Tattersail_, on 05 May 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

Okay, what is the significance of 3 dragon riders?

Dany received a prophecy early on in the books that 'The dragon has three heads', which everyone took to mean that there need to be three Dragonriders. There are also three dragons that we know of currently in the world, so that fits as well. The assumption is that these three dragon/rider combos are needed to defeat the Others. If the Others manage to push aside the defenders of the Wall and the Northmen, it is thought that winter will swoop down and spread across the entire world. So it is not just a threat to the North, although nobody apart from the people actually living in the North seem to appreciate this or see it as a realistic threat.

[blackzoid]

Again, why I prefer the up-ending of the prophecy and everyone having to make do with 2 dragons rather then 3. Or even 1 or none. For a series that initially was "anything can happen" the seeming predictability of the ending (Dany/Jon/Tyrion riding dragons to save the world yah!) depresses me.
Hopefully I will be proven wrong.

[Terez]

I wouldn't be surprised if one or two dragons dies before the end (would fit with Jon and Dany dying) but IMO it would be lame if all three weren't used in battle at some point. Unpredictability has its value but so does a certain amount of predictability. Fans expect certain things to happen; when those things happen, they're happy. Even for an author like GRRM, you can expect a good number of fan expectations to be fulfilled.

[Tattersail_]

You'd think the White Walkers will have something to counter the dragons, do we even know if Dragon Fire will hurt them?

Why do we think Dany and Jon would be amicable with each other?

[Terez]

Dragonfire might be one of the only things that can hurt dragons. We don't know for sure that it would work, but we know that fire is the only thing that can kill their wights, and R'hllor, the god of fire, is their ancient enemy. And we know that they can't abide even being around fire. Also, the only two things that are known to kill them are obsidian (called dragonglass, or volcanic glass which can be mined on Dragonstone) and Valyrian steel, said to be forged with dragonfire.

As for Dany and Jon, well...obviously, Dany is a beautiful woman and would be attractive to Jon. But Jon also has a theme going: Ygritte, kissed by fire; Melisandre, the fire priestess (not that he has yet fallen for that); ...Dany, the mother of fire-breathing dragons.

Dany identifies strongly as a Targaryen and the fact that Jon is her blood might be attractive to her. She herself is more purely Targaryen than any of the others at this point; she was born of Targaryen incest. And Jon is also an attractive guy. It was interesting IMO that they recast Daario as a guy more similar in appearance to Jon.

Also, "A Song of Ice and Fire" could refer to Jon himself, born of Targaryen and Stark, or the romance between Rhaegar and Lyanna, but it could also refer to a romance between Dany and Jon. And many other things. It has a certain romantic appeal.